Why people reject the reality of Hell

[Der Alte]

Sure it is, and it has been shown over and over in this (and other similar) thread/s:

Revelation 19:19-20
King James Version

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10
King James Version

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Devil, Satan, is cast into the Lake of Fire, where the Beast and False Prophet were cast one thousand years (and 75 days) prior.

It is the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet (these last two are men) that are tormented day and night forever and ever.

While I think all of us would like to believe that all men will be saved, we can't ignore the clear teachings of Scripture that make it clear there are two eternal groups: the saved and the lost.

That is why we preach the Good News, because the Bad News (man's separation from God, that begins at conception) is so horrible.

Feel-good videos aren't going to change what Christ and the Apostles have taught.

God bless.

PMFBI more scripture in support of your post.
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.2 ​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

While it is true the lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death/destruction from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence. There is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

My name for these two sentient beings is, “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Others can feel free to call them whatever they want. The 2 beings are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….Additional verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still called] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

The last chapter of the Bible, Rev. 22:11., 10 more vss. No more salvation, no more destruction, no more death, only “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.”

 

[P1LGR1M]

Take a season and examine the root of the Lake of Fire. The foundation is theion and theioo.

And...?

Examine the Lake of Fire itself, and what takes place there:


Revelation 20:10
King James Version

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


What does the torment that they receive like?

Let's look at some other uses of the word basanizō:


Mat 8:6
And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. G928


Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment G928 us before the time?


Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment G928 me not.


Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented G928 five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.


Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained G928 to be delivered.


Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented G928 with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Look at this again:


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented G928 day and night for ever and ever.


It's not the "refining" you try to teach, it is torment, and it will be day and night forever and ever.

Even if you tried to argue that only two men out of all mankind go into the Lake of Fire (which we know is not true (Revelation 20:11-15), we still see Universal salvation dismissed as a legitimate doctrinal position.


God bless.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Search = "eternal condemnation"
There are no references to eternal condemnation in the KJV.
Search = "eternal torment"
There are no references to eternal torment in the KJV
Search = "the love of God"
There are 166 references to the love of God
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases...

You continue to post this over and over and over as if it was meaningful. The only people on this forum who uses the terms "eternal condemnation" and "eternal torment" is you and other UR-ites. Crank up your search engine and search for "eternal punishment." That is the phrase Jesus, Himself, used in Matt 25:46. And before you even think about arguing that you think "aionios kolasis" means something else.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

.....Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. The native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of continuous Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly.
Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to translate them correctly.

 

[FineLinen]

Search Trinity.

Your advice is worthless, because you are trying to condemn (pun intended) words we use to describe Doctrines and concepts in Scripture and make a case that because "eternal condemnation" isn't found you have somehow supported your argument.

Your post "not only is Eternal Condemnation a First Century teaching of Christ and the Apostles, if is a Doctrine that is found in the Old Testament", if it is so, must be found somewhere within the Canon.

No references to eternal condemnation, or eternal torment within the Scriptures, but it is a 1st century teaching of the apostles. Surely you jest! !

 

[P1LGR1M]

Your post "not only is Eternal Condemnation a First Century teaching of Christ and the Apostles, if is a Doctrine that is found in the Old Testament", if it is so, must be found somewhere within the Canon.

No references to eternal condemnation, or eternal torment within the Scriptures, but it is a 1st century teaching of the apostles. Surely you jest! !

So you do reject the Trinity.

Thought so.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Your post "not only is Eternal Condemnation a First Century teaching of Christ and the Apostles, if is a Doctrine that is found in the Old Testament", if it is so, must be found somewhere within the Canon.

No references to eternal condemnation, or eternal torment within the Scriptures, but it is a 1st century teaching of the apostles. Surely you jest! !

Even giving you very short posts with just a verse or two—you still ignore the points and Scripture presented in an attempt to actually make this a doctrinal discussion.

Do you really feel reiterating your opinions will satisfy those that actually study Scripture?


1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.


That the devil's condemnation is everlasting has been shown:


Revelation 20:10
King James Version

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


You do understand that condemnation refers to judgment, right?

Daniel 12:1-2
King James Version

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


We don't see a universal judgment of one-size-fits-all, we don't see the fictitious "refining of unbelievers," and we can't escape that in view is an everlasting judgment that will be one of torment day and night, forever and ever.

But maybe you're right about all of this.

(just wanted to give an example of me jesting, so you will be able to recognize it in the future)




God bless.

 

[FineLinen]

We don't see a universal judgment of one-size-fits-all, we don't see the fictitious "refining of unbelievers," and we can't escape that in view is an everlasting judgment that will be one of torment day and night, forever and ever.

The judgment of our Father ABBA is not an end in itself, but one that produces change & transformation!

YAH is the God of restoration.

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases...

 

[Der Alte]

...

The judgment of our Father ABBA is not an end in itself, but one that produces change & transformation!
YAH is the God of restoration.
The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases...

While that is true there are times when God's patience expires.

Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Romans 1:18
(18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​

 

[P1LGR1M]

The judgment of our Father ABBA is not an end in itself, but one that produces change & transformation!

YAH is the God of restoration.

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases...

You still refuse to answer the simple questions asked you FineLinen.

Okay, I return your soapbox for universal salvation to your regularly scheduled program. Perhaps one day you will learn to not only support the beliefs you hold to but will also be able to show error in your antagonist's view.

There is enough in this thread and the other for those who are sincere in their search for truth to come to conclusion on this matter.


God bless.

 

[Der Alte]

You still refuse to answer the simple questions asked you FineLinen.
Okay, I return your soapbox for universal salvation to your regularly scheduled program. Perhaps one day you will learn to not only support the beliefs you hold to but will also be able to show error in your antagonist's view.
There is enough in this thread and the other for those who are sincere in their search for truth to come to conclusion on this matter.
God bless.

It appears that standard operating procedure [SOP] for certain religious groups is repeatedly spam their views all over the forum and refuse to address opposing views.

 

[Lazarus Short]

The Damnation of unbelievers is everlasting, not eternal. Only God is Eternal, and only God has always existed. Unbelievers are said to go into the Lake of Fire and their torment will be day and night forever and ever.

Your understanding of "eternal" versus "everlasting" is good!

I have a question, maybe two:

1. If anyone is still dead and/or in "hell," how is death, the last enemy, ever defeated? You must be dead to go to "hell," so you still count as dead. If you are annihilated to ashes, you still count as dead. So, when God makes His boast in I Corinthians 15:55, death can simply point to non-empty graves, those in "hell" and those reduced to ashes. Answer carefully, as I have been asking this question for years, and have yet to get back a decent answer.

2. Again, if anyone is still dead and/or in "hell," how can God ever become "All in all" as is stated in I Corinthians 15:28? I have been asking this question for years, as well.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Examine the Lake of Fire itself, and what takes place there:

More importantly, examine the nature and purpose of the Fire of God (Godfire), which the Lake of Fire is only one manifestation of. Due to certain stirrings within me, I undertook a long and tedious word study of "fire," "burning" and related words. I took notes. The notes became the crowning chapter in my book.

My findings, in short:

God describes Himself as a Refiner of men, usually as Fire, sometimes as Soap.

All instances of fire in the Bible are natural or supernatural.

All instances of supernatural fire in the Bible are Godfire, not "hellfire."

We see Godfire in the Burning Bush, in Daniel, Chapter 7, and in the Revelation.

The purpose of Godfire is to refine and save (see I Corinthians 3:15) by burning away our dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble - all those things that cannot endure the Fire.

The Lake of Fire is simply the last of such refining methods - refining, not punishing. See Hebrews 12:11.

 

[Der Alte]

More importantly, examine the nature and purpose of the Fire of God (Godfire), which the Lake of Fire is only one manifestation of. Due to certain stirrings within me, I undertook a long and tedious word study of "fire," "burning" and related words. I took notes. The notes became the crowning chapter in my book.
My findings, in short:
God describes Himself as a Refiner of men, usually as Fire, sometimes as Soap.
All instances of fire in the Bible are natural or supernatural.
All instances of supernatural fire in the Bible are Godfire, not "hellfire."
We see Godfire in the Burning Bush, in Daniel, Chapter 7, and in the Revelation.
The purpose of Godfire is to refine and save (see I Corinthians 3:15) by burning away our dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble - all those things that cannot endure the Fire.
The Lake of Fire is simply the last of such refining methods - refining, not punishing. See Hebrews 12:11.[

The word "fire" occurs twenty-six [26] times in twenty-five [25] verses in Revelation.
No form of the word "Refine" occurs anywhere in the book of revelation.
The term "godfire" does not occur anywhere in the book of Revelation.
The phrases/terms "burning away our dross, tares, chaff, hay and stubble " do not occur anywhere in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

Vs. 4 says "no more death" vs. 5 Jesus said "all things new." But 3 vss. later 8 groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is still called the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Since there is no more death after vs.4 the 8 groups of people thrown into the LOF in vs. 11, do not die. Ten more vss. "The end" no more death, no more destruction. Only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:"

 

[P1LGR1M]

It appears that standard operating procedure [SOP] for certain religious groups is repeatedly spam their views all over the forum and refuse to address opposing views.

It's like that on every forum, really. You get a couple of people that agree on a doctrine and if you oppose them they present what they think are "proofs" and when the "proofs" are addressed they ignore the address.

But that is really all they can do because they certainly can't address the Scriptures that speak plainly as to the error they have embraced.

Ahh, victory is bittersweet.




God bless.

 

[Der Alte]

Your understanding of "eternal" versus "everlasting" is good!
I have a question, maybe two:
1. If anyone is still dead and/or in "hell," how is death, the last enemy, ever defeated? You must be dead to go to "hell," so you still count as dead. If you are annihilated to ashes, you still count as dead. So, when God makes His boast in I Corinthians 15:55, death can simply point to non-empty graves, those in "hell" and those reduced to ashes. Answer carefully, as I have been asking this question for years, and have yet to get back a decent answer.
2. Again, if anyone is still dead and/or in "hell," how can God ever become "All in all" as is stated in I Corinthians 15:28? I have been asking this question for years, as well.

Do you consider the book of Revelation to be God inspired scripture?
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

While it is true the lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death/destruction from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence. There is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

My name for these two sentient beings is, “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Others can feel free to call them whatever they want or not. The 2 beings are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….Additional verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still called] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”
Note: "Death" is the point in time end of life. "No more death" does not mean all the dead return to life. It means no more dying, no more end of life.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

The last chapter of the Bible, Rev. 22:11., 10 more vss. No more salvation, no more destruction, no more death, only “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.”

 

[P1LGR1M]

1. If anyone is still dead and/or in "hell," how is death, the last enemy, ever defeated?

First we must make it distinctly clear that "Hell" is a word used to translate the concept of everlasting punishment.

Secondly, no one has been placed in Hell yet according to what we have been given so far. Hell, the Lake of Fire is distinct from Hades, and Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire along with death. That "hades" and "death" are cast into the Lake of Fire represents there will no longer be a "place of the dead (Hades)" any longer (because the Lake of Fire is the final destination of the lost) and the effects of "death" are no longer relevant to the New heavens and Earth (universe) God will create after this current universe passes away. There will be no more death and dying, and no more results of death.

It may be that "Tartarus" signifies Hell or the Lake of Fire and that certain demons have already gone into it, but as far as what we are given the Beast and the False Prophet are the first recorded inhabitants of everlasting punishment.

Third, when men die apart from being "saved" they go into everlasting punishment at death. That they (the dead of Hades, those who have not received the life of Christ, nor stand in the Great White Throne Judgment (if any do, that is speculation we cannot be dogmatic about in my opinion)) are cast into the Lake of Fire after being resurrected and judged doesn't change the fact that they are precisely what "death and Hades" is speaking about.

Fourth, why would we not see God's righteous judgment over sin and those who rejected His will as a victory over death?

Because there will be only believers in the Eternal State, and there will be no more death or dying—God has complete victory over death.

You must be dead to go to "hell," so you still count as dead.

Correct. A Biblical definition of "dead" in an eternal context as taught by Christ is not having life, and this—the Life God sent the Son to bestow on those who would believe in Him:


John 6:52-54
King James Version

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Keep in mind this reference to the REsurrection of the Dead falls into an Old Testament period dependent on the revelation already given, the Hebrew Scriptures. It would not be until the New Testament Writers (namely Paul) begin revealing mysteries withheld from men in past ages that we would come to understand the glorified body of the saint.

We also see that Revelation plainly calls everyone dead physically "the (rest of the) dead," in regards to the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs. The "rest of the dead" do not "live again" until the Great White Throne, which means they will be resurrected physically as well. It is this body in which they go into everlasting torment.

If you are annihilated to ashes, you still count as dead.

Nothing in Scripture teaches annihilation and there are numerous passages (many of them presented in this thread and never dismissed as meaning what they state) that specifically state they are in everlasting torment which is pictured as a state of anguish.

Because both darkness and fire are used in the imagery of everlasting punishment, and because we are told that there will be differing degrees of punishment, it is just my view that not everyone in Hell (the Lake of Fire) will be in flames or heat as some will. What all will be is separated from God.

And this is the state we are created in. Adam had a physical communion with God in a physical Garden that had a tree to provide "everlasting life." The Everlasting Life we receive being baptized into Christ differs greatly from physical life.

Consider:


John 6:30-32
King James Version

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.


The Son is the True Bread which had as a physical picture prophecy manna. Manna sustained physical life like the Tree of Life did.


John 6:48-53
King James Version

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.


The Jews did not need to be told that the wanderers in the desert were physically dead. That isn't the teaching Christ is expressing here. He is contrasting that kind of life (physical) with Eternal Life:


50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Most will acknowledge that "the bread" which is His flesh, which He gave—refers to His death on the Cross (John 3:14).

No man has this life unless they believe in Christ. The Old Testament Saints did not have this Life, but died awaiting that promise (Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:38-39).

Hence, the "dead" of Hades are dead because they do not have the Life of Christ.

So, when God makes His boast in I Corinthians 15:55, death can simply point to non-empty graves, those in "hell" and those reduced to ashes.

It points to those who are not in Christ. Over and over again it was pointed out in the proof texts supplied by Universal Salvation that the context is specific and exclusive to those who are in Christ.

Those who are not dead, but have Eternal Life, which is the very reason God gave us His Son (John 3:14-16).

Answer carefully, as I have been asking this question for years, and have yet to get back a decent answer.

I have a feeling that you have already been answered but simp[ly have not given consideration to the answers you may have received. Don't get mad at me for saying that, that's just I think to be likely.

How often have you gone through teachings that deny Universal Salvation? Don't consider what you used to believe, but what you now believe in light of teachings that deny Universal Salvation. Because you are at a different level now than you used to be, and you will continue to grow as you continue to study the issue.

2. Again, if anyone is still dead and/or in "hell," how can God ever become "All in all" as is stated in I Corinthians 15:28?

If we maintain the Biblical consistency it is pretty easy to see that this too refers to the redeemed, not all men:


1 Corinthians 15:28
King James Version

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


When Paul states...


16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


He doesn't refer to all of the dead, but only the dead in Christ. They are contrasted with the those who are still physically alive in Christ.


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Over and over Paul makes this clear.

One is not made alive unless they are in Christ.

Christ is the firstfruits from the dead and speaks specifically of those who will be glorified.

I have been asking this question for years, as well.

And the only way to come to conclusions that one might be dogmatic about is to study and understand, not just your own beliefs, but those of your antagonists. And when you can dismiss the proof texts or passages used to support any given doctrine by showing why they are in error to use them then you know you're on the right track.


God bless.

 

[surreal_platypus]

I think you are philosophizing there...

How so? The spirit is referred to as a form of energy, good is a direct analogy of positive as is bad being negative and Jesus himself talks of descending (hell) and ascending (heaven). I guarantee you can't prove me wrong using verses from the bible.

 

[P1LGR1M]

More importantly, examine the nature and purpose of the Fire of God (Godfire), which the Lake of Fire is only one manifestation of. Due to certain stirrings within me, I undertook a long and tedious word study of "fire," "burning" and related words. I took notes. The notes became the crowning chapter in my book.

My findings, in short:

God describes Himself as a Refiner of men, usually as Fire, sometimes as Soap.

All instances of fire in the Bible are natural or supernatural.

All instances of supernatural fire in the Bible are Godfire, not "hellfire."

We see Godfire in the Burning Bush, in Daniel, Chapter 7, and in the Revelation.

The purpose of Godfire is to refine and save (see I Corinthians 3:15) by burning away our dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble - all those things that cannot endure the Fire.

The Lake of Fire is simply the last of such refining methods - refining, not punishing. See Hebrews 12:11.

I've already addressed this issue, so perhaps you could look at that response and show why I am in error when I say you are generalizing what "fire" means in Scripture.

When the Comforter came on the Day of Pentecost there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. He wasn't judging them, He wasn't refining them, He was indwelling them in the eternal context Christ taught about (John 14:15-23, Acts 1:4-5; Acts 11:13-18).

Fire is used in a number of ways in Scripture and only the specific context of each passage matters when we try to understand it in it's immediate context.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

How so? The spirit is referred to as a form of energy, good is a direct analogy of positive as is bad being negative and Jesus himself talks of descending (hell) and ascending (heaven). I guarantee you can't prove me wrong using verses from the bible.

Would that mean that when God is angry He is then a God of negative energy?

God bless.

 

[FineLinen]

First we must make it distinctly clear that "Hell" is a word used to translate the concept of everlasting punishment.

The one passage of Scripture addressing everlasting punishment by Jesus Christ, has a context and five conditions for the same.

Questions =

1. What are the conditions for "everlasting punishment": there are 5 ?

2. Why is the Master speaking of virgins (5 wise/ 5 unwise)?

3. Why two clean animals, rather than one clean & one unclean?