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Why or what is it that makes you or leads or led you to believe that a God does not exist...?

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jayem

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Er, "perfect" by who's standards, yours or Gods?

I'm not sure that's actually true since at least "some" branches of Christianity believe that a satan figure can "win" sometimes. Is that "perfection"? I'm not sure Christians require perfection of God as you seem to assume.

So is God imperfect? And if so, in what ways? Think about the can of worms that would open up. If God isn't totally perfect, then can you really trust the Bible--which is supposed to be his divinely inspired word. Can you be sure that faith in Jesus is the sole path to redemption from sin? If you entertain the possibility that God could be flawed, you risk the collapse of the entire Christian edifice.
 
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Neogaia777

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So is God imperfect? And if so, in what ways? Think about the can of worms that would open up. If God isn't totally perfect, then can you really trust the Bible--which is supposed to be his divinely inspired word. Can you be sure that faith in Jesus is the sole path to redemption from sin? If you entertain the possibility that God could be flawed, you risk the collapse of the entire Christian edifice.
The Son, that is, God in the OT as well as the New, is perfectly "like God" and at the same time time, and in the same being "perfectly" like man...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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I do not believe a god does not exist. I do not believe a god does exist.

Can you see the difference.........?
Perfectly... So, your open to the possibility then... What's stopping or preventing you from "knowing" there is...? Since, you seem open to the fact that there "could be"...? Have you ever been willing to "take a chance" with him just based on the fact that there "could be"...?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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1. You slightly misunderstand the general position of an Atheist, the Atheist rejects the positive claim of a God. Some claim a "strong" Atheist position and make the positive claim that no God exists, there's a big difference.
2. You are trying to shift the burden of proof and expecting people to prove a negative. If you make the claim a God exists, the burden rests on you to offer evidence to support your position. Should that evidence not be forthcoming, there is no reason to accept the claim.
1. I thought the very definition of "Atheist" was being fully convinced beyond any doubt that there most certainly is "no God", or gods that exist at all, unless I'm wrong about that, and I'm asking "why" that is...? To reject it "completely", and I'm asking those that do, how they arrived at that conclusion...? Is all...

2. One evidence, that I think is the greatest evidence for a God, (though there's so very much more in my book) but a thing that connot be denied is the "fact" of Jesus existence, as said and told and written down in scripture... The truth about what he said and did (even and especially the supernatural) being undeniable... To say it is made up or a lie or some big conspiracy or hoax is people purposely, with the intent in their heart, of "seeking" "not to believe", desperately grasping at straws in order for, and for the purpose of, denying and rejecting it completely, cause it's just so "unbelievable" to them, that they flat out "refuse" to accept it as real or true, even though it clearly "is" and there's no lie, deception, or conspiracy to it at all...

And, there's so very much more, but I'll stop there, for now...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Not sure if many (or any around here) fit the exact requirements that you are looking for here. I don't have any logical or scientific reasons for not believing. I simply lack any convincing reason to believe.
I ask you all then: "What about Christ...?" (explained in one of my other posts to someone)...

God Bless!
 
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quatona

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Why or what is it that makes you or leads or led you to believe that a God does not exist...?
You´ve been around long enough to know that the majority of atheists don´t hold this belief. (See post #2).

I posted this here in the Physical and Life sciences forum, because those are atypically the ones who think they have a good, logical, valid, or scientific reason for not believing a God does or could exist, and I'd like to hear those...?
In order to even consider the existence of "God" in a rational, logical and/or scientific manner, we´d first need a positive, proper, workable, falsifiable definition of "God". A scientific approach would demand falsifiability, on top.
"God", in discussions about "God´s existence", proves to be a vividly moving target time and again.

Please post any and all good, logical, valid, or scientific, or other reasons for believing a God does not exist and how you came to know or believe you are certain of it, please...?
Since you defined the playing field as "logic" and "science", you better keep to their paradigms and principles - one of which is "the burden of support lies with the claimant".
 
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quatona

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1. I thought the very definition of "Atheist" was being fully convinced beyond any doubt that there most certainly is "no God", or gods that exist at all, unless I'm wrong about that, and I'm asking "why" that is...?
You are wrong about this. I don´t know why that is.
 
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Neogaia777

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I am not quite at the point of saying God does not exist, but I do entertain the possibility they he may not exist. Why? "Creation Science". If one has to deliberately misrepresent science and make stuff up about God to believe in God, that seems to present a problem.
If I bought into "most" Creation Science, I might not be a believer either, but I prefer to interpret the Bible for myself and not most of man's theories on the subject...

I will agree with most of you on the fact, that one good reason "not to believe", is because of many of the "followers" and what they say, do, and have done... But, I'd ask you not to believe that any man has the monopoly on God, nor is a "perfect" representative of God himself, and it is perhaps wrong of many of you "not to believe in him" or base your judgments of him, based on what any mere, imperfect man does or says about him, but base it on what "he has to say about himself" only...

I'd like to personally apologize for many of them, especially if this is or has been the case for you... Please, don't judge or make any decisions about God based on that though...

God Bless!
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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So essentially you cannot even conceive of any circumstance that might alter your beliefs. How is that any different from fundamentalist theism?

A fundamentalist simply states that "nothing" will be able to convince him/her otherwise.

That's not what FB says. He says that he's open to being convinced, while acknowledging honestly that he doesn't know what would convince him, what that evidence would look like.
 
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Neogaia777

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You are wrong about this. I don´t know why that is.
Aren't most of you then, actually "Agnostics" rather than actually "Atheist's" then, I thought Atheist was the "complete opposite" or antithesis of "theist"...? Or, Am I wrong...? (I could be...)

Aren't "Agnostics" Isn't the main claim in that belief, not necessary denying the existence of God, but saying that they don't think he can be "known" if he does exist, so, they don't put much more thought into it than that...? Or, am I wrong about that...? (I could be...)

God Bless!
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Perfectly... So, your open to the possibility then... What's stopping or preventing you from "knowing" there is...?
The lack of evidence. To turn mere beliefs into actual knowledge, you need evidence. Independent, verifiable evidence.

Since, you seem open to the fact that there "could be"...? Have you ever been willing to "take a chance" with him just based on the fact that there "could be"...?

No. Just like I never went to sleep with garlic all over by bed, just because there "could be" vampires visiting me during my sleep.
 
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quatona

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Aren't most of you then, actually "Agnostics" rather than actually "Atheist's" then, I thought Atheist was the "complete opposite" or antithesis of "theist"...? Or, Am I wrong...? (I could be...)
Indeed, you are. And seeing how this error is being corrected at least twice a week in one of these threads, I have a hard time believing you haven´t come across one of these instances yet.

"Agnostic" is a completely different category. It deals with the question of knowledge. You can be an agnostic theist ("I believe that a God exist, but I don´t/can´t know"). and you can be an agnostic atheist ("I don´t believe that a God exists, but I don´t know").

An atheist is everyone who isn´t a theist (i.e. everyone who holds no theistic beliefs).

However, there are indeed atheists who make the positive assertion that no Gods exist, and there are indeed atheists who claim to know that no Gods exist. They are an extremely small minority, though.
Thus, if you want to talk to (or about) members of these fringe groups, you better not address "atheists" but specify your target audience ("strong atheists" would be a common term here). Just don´t hold your breath you´ll find one of those here.
 
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Neogaia777

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Off the top of my head, I can think of 2 arguments against the Abrahamic god.

1) If this is the God who created all of us, I'd expect everyone's concept of god to be quite similar. Yet people have worshiped thousands of gods, many of whom are quite different from each other. Most gods are part of a polytheistic belief system. Unitary gods are rarer. It's also a fact that different gods are geographically associated with societies inhabiting those geographic regions. The logical conclusion is that gods are creations of specific cultures. The god of the Bible is just the one created by the ancient Hebrews. If there is any similarity between all the gods of the world, it's that each society thinks its god is the one, true God. Logic tells us they can't all be right. But they can all be wrong.

The Hebrew's were the first to conceive of "Monotheism", which is what I believe caused the true God to show up and begin to reveal himself and his truth's to and make a covenant with them, A promise or an oath to be loyal to, be with them, be their God, reveal himself and his truth's to them, and to have them be the one's (the real, true ones) to spread this belief about him to the rest of the world, and work through them to make himself known... At that point in their, and humankind's growth...

2) A quality of the the Abrahamic god is said to be perfection. Anselm of Canterbury's argument for God's existence is based on the idea that God is the most perfect entity that can possibly be conceived. If this is true, why would a perfect being create an entire universe? Logically, it seems to me that a totally perfect being would have no reason to do anything at all.

That's where God, the Father and God, the Son come in, It was all created through and for the Son, and for the Son to be our God... You are right, in that, the Father alone, by himself, has no reason to create, make, interfere or do anything at all really... That's why God, the Son, our God...

God Bless!
 
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quatona

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Perfectly... So, your open to the possibility then... What's stopping or preventing you from "knowing" there is...?
Typically, Gods are defined to be beyond human knowledge. They are defined as supernatural, and subject of "faith". So don´t blame me for that.
Since, you seem open to the fact that there "could be"...? Have you ever been willing to "take a chance" with him just based on the fact that there "could be"...?
What would count as "taking a chance", practically?
 
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Neogaia777

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The lack of evidence. To turn mere beliefs into actual knowledge, you need evidence. Independent, verifiable evidence.



No. Just like I never went to sleep with garlic all over by bed, just because there "could be" vampires visiting me during my sleep.
Most of you know a lot about Creation, correct...? How can you "not see" a "God" in it all...?

And, look at us... How can you "not see" how we are "like God", or that God is "like us", especially in Creation itself, his fingerprints are all over it...

The way we build, create, design, make things is getting closer and closer to, and this can or "should be able to" be clearly seen by now, The way we build, create, design, make "things" is getting closer and closer to the way a God actually "did" create, build, design, make, everything else...

None of you can "see" this...?

God Bless!
 
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quatona

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Most of you know a lot about Creation, correct...? How can you "not see" a "God" in it all...?

And, look at us... How can you "not see" how we are "like God", or that God is "like us", especially in Creation itself, his fingerprints are all over it...

The way we build, create, design, make things is getting closer and closer to, and this can or "should be able to" be clearly seen by now, The way we build, create, design, make "things" is getting closer and closer to the way a God actually "did" create, build, design, make, everything else...

None of you can "see" this...?

God Bless!
Since you set the standards for this thread as "logic" and "science", could you possibly try to keep to these standards yourself - instead of merely appealing to your personal perception and interpretation?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Most of you know a lot about Creation, correct...? How can you "not see" a "God" in it all...?

The same way that you don't see leprechauns and pots of gold in rainbows.

And, look at us... How can you "not see" how we are "like God", or that God is "like us",

Before I could "see" such a thing, I'ld have to know what this "god" is like. Can you point him out for study? And not claims about him, but actually him himself?

especially in Creation itself, his fingerprints are all over it...

Where?

The way we build, create, design, make things is getting closer and closer to, and this can or "should be able to" be clearly seen by now, The way we build, create, design, make "things" is getting closer and closer to the way a God actually "did" create, build, design, make, everything else...

I don't know what that means.

None of you can "see" this...?

Here's a better question: can you demonstrate / support it?
 
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Neogaia777

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Typically, Gods are defined to be beyond human knowledge. They are defined as supernatural, and subject of "faith". So don´t blame me for that.

But, that's the great fallacy and deception... That he can't be known or conceived of by man... The thing about the true God is, is that he does want, and designed everything, and did things, so that we "could" actually "know" him, for that is his greatest desire for us, that we might "come to know" him and relate to him in a very personal, intimate way... But, for those that really want this, he designed it to a process of growth in "coming to know" him... The process of coming to, or arriving at, knowing him, being key... He has made is very possible and even not very difficult though... Many of you could easily come to know if you really wanted to...

What would count as "taking a chance", practically?

Try "talking to him", and "watch" for a response, is only one example... Like "God, if your real, show me please (or then) please..." Is a good example, to start with...

God Bless!
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Aren't most of you then, actually "Agnostics" rather than actually "Atheist's" then, I thought Atheist was the "complete opposite" or antithesis of "theist"...? Or, Am I wrong...? (I could be...)

Most atheists are agnostic atheists.

I actually don't know anyone who would fit the label "gnostic atheist".

Aren't "Agnostics" Isn't the main claim in that belief, not necessary denying the existence of God, but saying that they don't think he can be "known" if he does exist, so, they don't put much more thought into it than that...? Or, am I wrong about that...? (I could be...)

You are wrong about it, in the sense that "agnostic" and "atheist" are answers to the same question or mutually exclusive positions. They are not.

They deal with different subjects.

(a)gnosticism pertains to knowledge, while (a)theism pertains to beliefs.

I don't claim to know that there is a god or not. And I don't find the claims that there is one (or more) believable.

I'm also, strictly speaking, agnostic about the easter bunny. I cannot prove to you that there is no such thing as the easter bunny.
 
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