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And here is my response for the 2 Maccabees apocrypha verse:Yes I know. And bara is ex materia.
How many times do I need to repeat this for you to understand?
Genesis 1:3 NRSVUE
[3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
[6] And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so.
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
[20] And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.”
[24] And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures of every kind: cattle and creeping things and wild animals of the earth of every kind.” And it was so.
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the wild animals of the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
Look at these verses. Every single day begins with God speaking. And God said.
The initial ex materia creation doesn't actually begin until verse 3.
Verse 2, just like in Genesis chapter 2 with no plants water or people to till the field, is a description of the formless and empty earth. And then after the background description is given, then God forms Adam. And in Genesis 1, after the background description is given, then God says "let there be light".
I'll even color code it to make it easier to see:And the evidence is right here in the Bible. I won't repeat, but I'll just quote myself. Every creation day begins with "and God said" so creation didn't begin until Genesis 1:3.
God creates with use of the spoken word. God creates by speaking. And since God didn't speak until verse 1:3, we know that creation didn't begin until 1:3. Verse 2 is just a background. Verse 1 is an introduction.
Also, Genesis chapter 2 starts the same way.
1. In the beginning.
2.The land was without plants, water, or people to till the field.
3. Then God began creating by forming Adam.
Chapter 1 :
1. In the beginning
2. Earth was formless and void
2. God said let there be light
Just read the Bible. The Bible makes it clear that the formless earth in both chapter 1 and 2 is just a background description preceeding ex materia creation in verse 3 and in chapter 2 the empty land proceeds the creation of Adam from dust of the ground, ex materia.
Not according to the apostolic churches.First off, Maccabees is apocryphal. So, you're drawing from uninspired words.
Maccabees 7:28 doesn’t say that man was created from nothing, it says “God did not make them out of things that existed”. “Them” is referring to the first “them” in the statement referring to the heavens and the earth.I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed.
First off, Maccabees is apocryphal. So, you're drawing from uninspired words. Second, we know that humankind wasn't formed ex nihilo, humankind was made of dust and rib. As the Bible tells us. So really the error is in your understanding of the verse and context.
“Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”First off, Maccabees is apocryphal. So, you're drawing from uninspired words. Second, we know that humankind wasn't formed ex nihilo, humankind was made of dust and rib. As the Bible tells us. So really the error is in your understanding of the verse and context.
To not exist is to be formless and void. But it doesn't mean to be empty space.
Also, it can be said that, just because God did ultimately create ex nihilo, that doesn't mean that this is what Genesis 1 is the story of.
God created the universe out of nothing. But when God creates a baby in the womb, the two statements are not exclusive of one another. So if I said that God created you and me ex materia in the womb, you wouldn't say "no no, he made everything out of nothing".
That kind of response wouldn't make any sense. What matters is what Genesis 1 is describing.
The ex materia creation was done in 7 days. I agree. I never said anything about millions of years. I never said one time that the Bible said anything about millions of years. You're straw-maning my position.“Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”
Genesis 2:1-3 NASB1995
Genesis 2:1-3 says that God rested on the 7th day from all His work which He had done. It doesn’t say that He created the earth from nothing then waited a few million years before completing it. It says He completed His work in 6 days. You’re saying He completed it in a few million years.
Now you're quote-mining the book of Maccabees. Here is the full verse:Maccabees 7:28 doesn’t say that man was created from nothing, it says “God did not make them out of things that existed”. “Them” is referring to the first “them” in the statement referring to the heavens and the earth.
“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”But that also doesnt mean that time didnt pass before I began creating my batch of cookies. After all, the cookies were doughy and without form before I began my 7-day cookie creation activities. So they existed prior to the 7 days.
I just said Maccabees doesn’t say that man came into existence from nothing. The word “them” is used twice in that passage and in both cases it is referring to the heavens and the earth, not everything in them. And if God created the universe before Genesis 1 then He didn’t complete it in 6 days like the scriptures say He did in Genesis 2. No matter how you try to reword it, it doesn’t work.Humankind didnt come into existence ex nihilo, humankind was made of dust and bone. But it doesnt matter anyway because nobody is denying that God created the universe ex nihilo at some indeterminate time prior to Genesis.
I just said Maccabees doesn’t say that man came into existence from nothing. The word “them” is used twice in that passage and in both cases it is referring to the heavens and the earth, not everything in them. And if God created the universe before Genesis 1 then He didn’t complete it in 6 days like the scriptures say He did in Genesis 2. No matter how you try to reword it, it doesn’t work.
Bara does not mean ex nihilo creation. Creation can be completed in 7 days without the beginning needing to be ex nihilo.“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
John 1:3 NASB1995
God created everything from nothing. Apart from Him nothing came into being without Him. The earth didn’t just exist by itself before Genesis 1.
Nobody ever said that God didn't create ex nihilo. It's just that Genesis is not telling that story. Genesis is telling a different story about an ex materia creation that lasted 7-days.Bara does not mean ex nihilo creation. Creation can be completed in 7 days without the beginning needing to be ex nihilo.
Just as I can complete the creation of a batch of cookies in 7 days without that 7 day creation event needing to be about how I came into existence 30+ years ago from my mother's womb.
Ex nihilo creation occurred before the 7-day ex materia creation.
Just as the creation of me in my mother's womb came before the 7-day cookie creation event of December.
Genesis isn't about ex nihilo origins. It's about ex materia origins.
And I'm not sure how many times I'll have to repeat this before you'll understand.
And I'll repeat this again. Just because Genesis doesn't describe ex nihilo creation, doesn't mean that God didn't create ex nihilo. It just means that that's not the story Genesis is telling.
Just because I can tell a 7-day cookie creation story, and just because that story isnt about the origins of my life from mothers womb. Doesn't mean that I wasn't born from my mother's womb. It just means that the story I'm telling you, isn't about the origins of my life. It's about an ex materia creation, later in my life.
And with that, John can be correct, and Genesis can still speak of ex materia creation.
Hogwash. You commit the cardinal sins of sloth and hubris. Read evangelical commentaries on Genesis by called teachers of the Church.No because you can only come to that conclusion by isolating Genesis from the rest of scripture. Genesis 1:1 says God created the earth and the heavens. Exodus 20:11 specifically says that God made the earth and the heavens and the seas and everything in them in 6 days. So Exodus 20:11 specifically tells us that Genesis 1:1 happened on the first day.
This is contradictory to John 1:3, Genesis 1:1, and Exodus 20:11 because now you’re saying that God didn’t create the heavens and the earth, you’re saying they existed before He began creating in Genesis 1:3.Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
The creative actions of God do not begin until verse 3. God creates through the spoken word. And that's how every single creation day begins.
I’m committing the cardinal sin of sloth? How about actually addressing the verses I posted instead of making false accusations against me. I’m quoting the scriptures which is from my own extensive study of them. You’ll never see me quoting commentaries outside of the early church writers from the first two centuries of the church because I don’t read commentaries so allow me to show you why I don’t read commentaries by pointing out the errors in the commentary you provided. These quotes are from the link you provided.Hogwash. R
Hogwash. You commit the cardinal sins of sloth and hubris. Read evangelical commentaries on Genesis by called teachers of the Church.
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