Why Old Earth creationism doesn't work

[Job 33:6]

Like I said, the earth was already created and suffered some sort of chaotic event as per scripture. GOD had to reform it because of this.

In an ancient near east context, there was no prior chaotic event. Rather there was simply disordered or un-ordered water. It's like a primordial state.

Kind of like how in modern times we think of empty space. It's void, empty, without meaning or purpose. There's nothing there.

In ancient times, pre-creation was just water. "The deep". Before the dry land was revealed as the waters were held back.

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11


And God inscribed a circle on the face of the deep. So basically God, like with a compass you use to draw a circle, God drew a circle on the waters, and with that circle at the boundary between light and darkness, that is the horizon, God then stretched out the heavens as a barrier to hold the waters back.

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

 

[Aussie Pete]

Nothing in any ancient near east cognitive background, nor in the text indicates such a thing, that there was a proto-eden that was destroyed and then restored into an earthly eden. That's just some modern idea fabricated by gap theorists in recent times.

In Genesis 1:2, heaven and earth are created out of the waters. Or those are the pre existing details, and then there are 6 days of creation out of the waters, followed by a 7th day of rest.

This is a common ancient near east cosmology descriptive perspective. Where heaven and earth form out of the waters. The earth split from the heavens, the water retreating to reveal dry land etc.

There is no world or ancient history prior to what is Genesis 1:2. Genesis 1:2 is a description of the background stated in Genesis 1:1.

In the beginning God created heavens and earth, Now the earth was formless and void.

Then, God began day 1 by saying, and began creating by the spoken Word when God said "let there be light".

The initial spoken creative acts begin in verse 3. Verse 2 is the initial state of existence. The formless and disordered, deep. And verse 1 is an introduction just to inform the reader of what the narrative is about.


And Genesis 2 starts the same way.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
[4] This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.

There is your introduction^


‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:5‭-‬6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
[5] Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. [6] But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.

here are the initial conditions prior to God acting or creating^

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
[7] Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Then God began creating^

Same in Genesis 1.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Introduction^

[2] The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Initial conditions^

[3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Day 1 begins and God begins creating with the spoken Word.


And there is nothing prior. That's why it's called "the beginning".

Gap theory states that the word "was" can be translated "became" (formless and void). So God did not create what is stated in verse 2 and darkness was not the original state of the earth. Scripture supports this position and it helps to explain a great deal of the geology that is plainly visible. It's not a big deal. I have yet to hear any argument that refutes Old Earth creation. You don't have to believe it. However, some, including me, do and I find it helpful to overcome the objections of some doubters. One alternative is to consign Genesis to the realm of myth or allegory. Many times here I've read "You can't take Genesis literally". I do. 100%.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have yet to hear any argument that refutes Old Earth creation.

How does Exodus 20:11 not refute OEC?

 

[eleos1954]

We don’t know that they ate from the tree of life. It’s certainly possible but we don’t know if they had to keep eating from the tree of life in order to maintain their life or if they would’ve had immortality just by eating from it one time. It’s just not mentioned in the scriptures.

Genesis 3

King James Bible
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

[BNR32FAN]

Genesis 3

King James Bible
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Yes I’m aware of that verse my friend but that was the reason why God forced them out of the garden and placed cherubs to guard the entrance. The verse doesn’t specify whether they would have to continue eating to continue having eternal life or if they only had to eat one time and we also don’t know if Adam & Eve had already eaten from the tree of life.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes I’m aware of that verse my friend but that was the reason why God forced them out of the garden and placed cherubs to guard the entrance. The verse doesn’t specify whether they would have to continue eating to continue having eternal life or if they only had to eat one time and we also don’t know if Adam & Eve had already eaten from the tree of life.

The only tree God forbid was the one of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2

16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

Genesis 3

24So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life.


We will once again eat from the tree of life in heaven (in fact two of them)

Revelations 2:22

2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The only tree God forbid was the one of knowledge of good and evil.

Yes I know this but the scriptures never actually tell us whether they ate from it or not or whether eating from it one time would grant a person eternal life or if they would have to continue eating from it to continue living. There are no passages that give us this information so we can speculate but we can’t formulate an actual doctrine based on the information we have.

 

[ARBITER01]

Gap theory states that the word "was" can be translated "became" (formless and void). So God did not create what is stated in verse 2 and darkness was not the original state of the earth. Scripture supports this position and it helps to explain a great deal of the geology that is plainly visible. It's not a big deal. I have yet to hear any argument that refutes Old Earth creation. You don't have to believe it. However, some, including me, do and I find it helpful to overcome the objections of some doubters. One alternative is to consign Genesis to the realm of myth or allegory. Many times here I've read "You can't take Genesis literally". I do. 100%.

This is correct,...

Original: היה
- Transliteration: Hayah
- Phonetic: haw-yaw
- Definition:
1. to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
a. (Qal)
1. ----- 1a
b. to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass 1a
c. to come about, come to pass
1. to come into being, become 1a
d. to arise, appear, come 1a
e. to become 1a
1. to become 1a
2. to become like 1a
3. to be instituted, be established
4. to be 1a
f. to exist, be in existence 1a
g. to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time) 1a
h. to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality) 1a
i. to accompany, be with
j. (Niphal)
1. to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
2. to be done, be finished, be gone
- Origin: a primitive root [compare H1933]
- TWOT entry: 491
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

- Strong's: A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist that is be or become come to pass (always emphatic and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon X altogether be (-come accomplished committed like) break cause come (to pass) continue do faint fall + follow happen X have last pertain quit (one-) self require X use.

 

[ARBITER01]

Not according to Exodus 20:11. There is no mention of a chaotic event and it doesn’t say He that reformed the earth. It just says that when He first created the earth it was without form.

You're not paying attention to words,...

Gen 1:2 And the earth was waste and void;

- Original: תּהוּ
- Transliteration: Tohuw
- Phonetic: to'-hoo
- Definition:
1. formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
a. formlessness (of primeval earth)
1. nothingness, empty space
b. that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
c. wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
d. place of chaos
e. vanity
- Origin: from an unused root meaning to lie waste
- TWOT entry: 2494a
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine

- Strong's: From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface) that is desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion empty place without form nothing (thing of) nought vain vanity waste wilderness.

Verse 2 has the earth already existing, but it was/became empty/chaotic/formlessness because of some sort of event. Mostly likely GOD is identifying a judgment of sorts that happened. There was no sun or lights from the stars, just darkness and frozen temperatures. Probably the ice age that happened long ago destroyed everything.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're not paying attention to words,...

Gen 1:2 And the earth was waste and void;

- Original: תּהוּ
- Transliteration: Tohuw
- Phonetic: to'-hoo
- Definition:
1. formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
a. formlessness (of primeval earth)
1. nothingness, empty space
b. that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
c. wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
d. place of chaos
e. vanity
- Origin: from an unused root meaning to lie waste
- TWOT entry: 2494a
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine

- Strong's: From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface) that is desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion empty place without form nothing (thing of) nought vain vanity waste wilderness.

Verse 2 has the earth already existing, but it was/became empty/chaotic/formlessness because of some sort of event. Mostly likely GOD is identifying a judgment of sorts that happened. There was no sun or lights from the stars, just darkness and frozen temperatures. Probably the ice age that happened long ago destroyed everything.

You have to take all scripture into consideration before formulating a doctrine. Verse 1 says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Verse 2 says the earth was formless and void. Exodus 20:11 says God created the heavens and the earth and the seas and everything in them in 6 days. So the heavens and the earth were both created on the first day. You’re not incorporating the information given in Exodus 20:11 into your interpretation.

 

[Job 33:6]

Gap theory states that the word "was" can be translated "became" (formless and void). So God did not create what is stated in verse 2 and darkness was not the original state of the earth. Scripture supports this position and it helps to explain a great deal of the geology that is plainly visible. It's not a big deal. I have yet to hear any argument that refutes Old Earth creation. You don't have to believe it. However, some, including me, do and I find it helpful to overcome the objections of some doubters. One alternative is to consign Genesis to the realm of myth or allegory. Many times here I've read "You can't take Genesis literally". I do. 100%.

The Bible isnt a science textbook. In its ancient near east context, there was no pre-earth that was destroyed and then re-created or anything like that.

There was simply a primordial sea, and heaven and earth were made out-of that primordial sea. That is all.

Everyone has this issue where they think that either the Bible must be scientifically accurate, or alternatively it must therefore be completely made up and imaginary.

How about recognizing that the Bible can be theologically true revelation, without the Bible needing to be scientifically accurate?

If a little girl ran up to you and asked, where to Babies come from?

And you responded: "God makes them".

Are you lying to the little girl because you didnt mention gametes and gene duplication and fetus growth in the womb (science)?

No, you arent telling the little girl a myth. The absense of science does not mean that the text automatically becomes mythology. It just means that the Bible is a book of theology, not a science textbook.

The authors of the Bible lived some 3,000 years ago. They would not have ever known anything about modern geology. So we shouldnt expect the Bible to tell us about billions of years ago in history. That doesnt make any sense because the authors had no idea of the age of the earth and thats just not what theyre talking about. The YECs are correct that the Bible cannot be substantiated to support billions of years of history.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Bible isnt a science textbook. In its ancient near east context, there was no pre-earth that was destroyed and then re-created or anything like that.

There was simply a primordial sea, and heaven and earth were made out-of that primordial sea. That is all.

Everyone has this issue where they think that either the Bible must be scientifically accurate, or alternatively it must therefore be completely made up and imaginary.

How about recognizing that the Bible can be theologically true revelation, without the Bible needing to be scientifically accurate?

If a little girl ran up to you and asked, where to Babies come from?

And you responded: "God makes them".

Are you lying to the little girl because you didnt mention gametes and gene duplication and fetus growth in the womb (science)?

No, you arent telling the little girl a myth. The absense of science does not mean that the text automatically becomes mythology. It just means that the Bible is a book of theology, not a science textbook.

The authors of the Bible lived some 3,000 years ago. They would not have ever known anything about modern geology. So we shouldnt expect the Bible to tell us about billions of years ago in history. That doesnt make any sense because the authors had no idea of the age of the earth and thats just not what theyre talking about. The YECs are correct that the Bible cannot be substantiated to support billions of years of history.

God said He made the seas in the six day creation process in Exodus 20:11

 

[ARBITER01]

You have to take all scripture into consideration before formulating a doctrine. Verse 1 says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Verse 2 says the earth was formless and void. Exodus 20:11 says God created the heavens and the earth and the seas and everything in them in 6 days. So the heavens and the earth were both created on the first day. You’re not incorporating the information given in Exodus 20:11 into your interpretation.

I absolutely take all scripture in consideration,...... I also look at creation to see GOD's handiwork in it, just like scripture says we can see. I don't ignore GOD's work before the Adamic age, nor do I ignore His work afterwards. I take a very reasonable and logical position on it rather than try to ignore the material evidence that is so readily available.

For me to try and say that GOD created the earth in just 6 days means I have to ignore anything that might upset that sort of belief,.... and that is not a reasonable and logical position to take. It only makes sense that there was a world that then was, and a world that currently is. Mankind was nothing more than an animal with a soul until GOD wiped out all lifeforms and started over by giving mankind a spirit thereby making him a living soul.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I absolutely take all scripture in consideration,...... I also look at creation to see GOD's handiwork in it, just like scripture says we can see. I don't ignore GOD's work before the Adamic age, nor do I ignore His work afterwards. I take a very reasonable and logical position on it rather than try to ignore the material evidence that is so readily available.

For me to try and say that GOD created the earth in just 6 days means I have to ignore anything that might upset that sort of belief,.... and that is not a reasonable and logical position to take. It only makes sense that there was a world that then was, and a world that currently is. Mankind was nothing more than an animal with a soul until GOD wiped out all lifeforms and started over by giving mankind a spirit thereby making him a living soul.

So you’ve just said yourself that you don’t believe Exodus 20:11. Now I’m not trying to say that in a derogatory manner, I’m just pointing out that this is the takeaway from what you’ve stated here. You’re saying you take all scripture into consideration but you’re not applying it to your interpretation because of what scientists are telling you. Adam was created as a full grown man in one day with the capability to have conversations with God and Eve. I think if more people understood the dating methods that are used today they would realize that they are absolutely capable of being completely wrong because they’re based on assumptions. Carbon dating is based on their assumption of how much c14 was in the atmosphere when the organism they’re testing was alive. They don’t know how much was actually present when that organism was alive and they’re not expecting there to be zero c14 6000 years ago. And I’m thermoluminescence dating they’re assuming that the material had zero radioactivity at some point. They’re not expecting that the material may have already contained radioactivity when it was created. They’re just predictions they’re not facts.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I absolutely take all scripture in consideration,...... I also look at creation to see GOD's handiwork in it, just like scripture says we can see. I don't ignore GOD's work before the Adamic age, nor do I ignore His work afterwards. I take a very reasonable and logical position on it rather than try to ignore the material evidence that is so readily available.

For me to try and say that GOD created the earth in just 6 days means I have to ignore anything that might upset that sort of belief,.... and that is not a reasonable and logical position to take. It only makes sense that there was a world that then was, and a world that currently is. Mankind was nothing more than an animal with a soul until GOD wiped out all lifeforms and started over by giving mankind a spirit thereby making him a living soul.

Is it reasonable and logical for a donkey to talk? Is it reasonable and logical for a woman to be instantly turned into a pillar of salt just by looking at something? Is it reasonable and logical for two men to be brought back to life after being dead for 3 days? Is it reasonable and logical for a man to walk on water? Is it reasonable and logical for a plant to wither and die in just a few seconds just because someone told it to? Is it reasonable and logical for a blind man to be healed by rubbing spit & dirt on his eyes? Is the Bible reasonable and logical according to what science teaches us? Is the definition of the word miracle reasonable and logical?

 

[ARBITER01]

So you’ve just said yourself that you don’t believe Exodus 20:11.

No I didn't ,.... I just don't agree with your interpretation of it. I see that passage saying that GOD reformed the earth in those 6 24 hour days, not created it.

 

[ARBITER01]

Is it reasonable and logical for a donkey to talk? Is it reasonable and logical for a woman to be instantly turned into a pillar of salt just by looking at something? Is it reasonable and logical for two men to be brought back to life after being dead for 3 days? Is it reasonable and logical for a man to walk on water? Is it reasonable and logical for a plant to wither and die in just a few seconds just because someone told it to? Is it reasonable and logical for a blind man to be healed by rubbing spit & dirt on his eyes? Is the Bible reasonable and logical according to what science teaches us? Is the definition of the word miracle reasonable and logical?

Is it reasonable for a complete plant life system, that was completely different from the one we have currently, to completely disappear from the earth at some point?

Am I suppose to believe that that system never existed on the earth?

What about all the material evidence of the different forms of mankind prior to the creation of Adam? Am I suppose to just ignore all of that, or worse yet, refuse to believe it even exists when it is right in front of my face?

I'm well aware of how GOD is able to control the elemental laws, in fact, I've probably experienced more of Him doing that than you ever will in your lifetime. But to try and make myself believe that the earth never existed prior to the 6 day re-creation by Him,..... sorry, I'm not going to ignore material evidence and what The Holy Spirit teaches in scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No I didn't ,.... I just don't agree with your interpretation of it. I see that passage saying that GOD reformed the earth in those 6 24 hour days, not created it.

So He reformed the heavens and the earth and the seas and everything in them?

 

[ARBITER01]

So He reformed the heavens and the earth and the seas and everything in them?

That's exactly the way I see it.

Until GOD turned the sun back on, this planet was a solid rock of ice in complete darkness.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's exactly the way I see it.

Until GOD turned the sun back on, this planet was a solid rock of ice in complete darkness.

But in Genesis 1 it says God created all these things in 6 days. And other passages say that He created them from nothing.

“By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So Exodus 20:11 can’t be referring to reforming what already existed.