Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

[pitabread]

So what? So it's at least probable cause (Lol) to believe that it could be true, that it fundamentally points to an intelligence behind this delicately balanced design.

Improbability doesn't inherently point to intelligence. Improbability simply points to improbability.

Where people tend to use improbability as a marker for intelligence is in relation to specific environmental conditions. For example, finding a painting in the woods or a watch on a beach. The argument follows that such objects would not be able to form via natural (non-human) mechanisms for manipulating the materials and producing such output. Such a result would be highly improbable, thus we conclude they are the result of human manufacture. In a sense, this is a basic form of pattern recognition that we use to determine things of intelligent origin.

However, in these cases we are making a direct comparison with an object and its environment. In the case of the universe as a whole, we have no such comparison available. This is why I said earlier that we don't know what the total probability space would look like; we don't have a bunch of other universes to compare to. Our sample size is exactly 1.

This is why all the probability calculations in the world aren't going to be particularly meaningful and don't lead to the logical conclusion of intelligent causation for the universe as a whole.

It's the Anthropic Principle.

I'm well familiar with the anthropic principle. But I think it's completely misguided to use it as an argument for the existence of a creator.

 

[pitabread]

It used to be hard to see God's fingerprints on Earth, but not after I got saved. Now I can't step outside without seeing His fingerprints everywhere!

Odd how the evidence for design suddenly seems obvious after one starts to believe in it. :/

 

[BNR32FAN]

Odd how the evidence for design suddenly seems obvious after one starts to believe in it. :/

Well I don’t know why but it seems pretty apparent that God wants us to believe on faith not by solid proof. I find it hard to believe that the Israelites had so much solid proof of His existence by witnessing so many miracles and they still had doubt. I don’t think man will ever prove divine creation because I don’t think God wants us to have proof. I think the best we can do is examine evidence that supports divine creation. On the other hand I also don’t believe anyone can ever disprove divine creation either.

 

[Speedwell]

Well I don’t know why but it seems pretty apparent that God wants us to believe on faith not by solid proof. I find it hard to believe that the Israelites had so much solid proof of His existence by witnessing so many miracles and they still had doubt. I don’t think man will ever prove divine creation because I don’t think God wants us to have proof. I think the best we can do is examine evidence that supports divine creation. On the other hand I also don’t believe anyone can ever disprove divine creation either.

Now you've got it. The existence of God is not a falsifiable proposition. Science can't touch it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Science can't touch it.

Science is myopic.

 

[pitabread]

Well I don’t know why but it seems pretty apparent that God wants us to believe on faith not by solid proof.

This is an example of why I find certain theistic beliefs inherently illogical.

 

[Divide]

Improbability doesn't inherently point to intelligence. Improbability simply points to improbability.

Where people tend to use improbability as a marker for intelligence is in relation to specific environmental conditions. For example, finding a painting in the woods or a watch on a beach. The argument follows that such objects would not be able to form via natural (non-human) mechanisms for manipulating the materials and producing such output. Such a result would be highly improbable, thus we conclude they are the result of human manufacture. In a sense, this is a basic form of pattern recognition that we use to determine things of intelligent origin.

However, in these cases we are making a direct comparison with an object and its environment. In the case of the universe as a whole, we have no such comparison available. This is why I said earlier that we don't know what the total probability space would look like; we don't have a bunch of other universes to compare to. Our sample size is exactly 1.

This is why all the probability calculations in the world aren't going to be particularly meaningful and don't lead to the logical conclusion of intelligent causation for the universe as a whole.



I'm well familiar with the anthropic principle. But I think it's completely misguided to use it as an argument for the existence of a creator.

Ahh, the huh-uh defense. Ok, we'll move on to something else. Proving that the scriptures are true how 'bout that.

Even though I have no idea how the improbability of chance wouldn't point to intelligent design. I think you're reaching there.

 

[Divide]

Odd how the evidence for design suddenly seems obvious after one starts to believe in it. :/

Well that's how He set it up to work Brother. I don't know why. He wants us to have faith in Him.

Proverbs 25:2-4
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.

4 Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.../

It's like they said in Miracle on 34th street. Seeing isn't believing, Believing is seeing.

We don't have to understand God logically to believe in Him. We only need trust Him. Then...He'll come and reveal Himself to you.

I don't know why, ask Him!

 

[Divide]

I find it hard to believe that the Israelites had so much solid proof of His existence by witnessing so many miracles and they still had doubt

It's the spiritual war Brother. They were besieged by demons and evil spirits, that's why.

 

[Divide]

This is an example of why I find certain theistic beliefs inherently illogical.

It isn't supposed to be logical. We are not to lean upon our own understanding. Spiritual matters are spiritually discerned. That, is what it's all about.

I know it's not easy to set ones mind and intellect aside, but it is possible.

 

[Divide]

Improbability doesn't inherently point to intelligence. Improbability simply points to improbability.

Now wait a minute...I'm sittin' here drinking coffee, thinking about what you say here...and I realized that essentially, you are agreeing with me that it's highly improbable that the earth came about by chance.

I appreciate your honesty.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's the spiritual war Brother. They were besieged by demons and evil spirits, that's why.

Yeah but can you imagine seeing the miracles they witnessed then having the audacity to doubt? Crazy

 

[Speedwell]

Ahh, the huh-uh defense. Ok, we'll move on to something else. Proving that the scriptures are true how 'bout that.

Even though I have no idea how the improbability of chance wouldn't point to intelligent design. I think you're reaching there.

So there have been two millenia of Christians who have devoutly believed that God created the universe and all it contains. None of them believed in Intelligent Design. There are now close to two billion Christians around the world who devoutly believe that God created the universe and all that it contains. Few of them believe in Intelligent Design, in fact I think it is safe to say that few of them outside the US have ever even heard of it. Has the Holy Spirit not been doing His job these last 2000 years or what?

 

[pitabread]

Even though I have no idea how the improbability of chance wouldn't point to intelligent design. I think you're reaching there.

Consider lottery winners. Winning the lottery is a highly improbable event. Do you believe that a person who wins a lottery did so out of deliberate design? Did they manipulate the results?

 

[pitabread]

Now wait a minute...I'm sittin' here drinking coffee, thinking about what you say here...and I realized that essentially, you are agreeing with me that it's highly improbable that the earth came about by chance.

I never said anything about the probability of the Earth's existence, so I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.

Perhaps you're mixing up my posts with someone else's.

 

[Divide]

I never said anything about the probability of the Earth's existence, so I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.

Perhaps you're mixing up my posts with someone else's.

Oh no I'm not. That's to you. Well if it didn't happen by chance, then what? How many choices are there? Lol...

 

[pitabread]

Oh no I'm not. That's to you. Well if it didn't happen by chance, then what? How many choices are there? Lol...

I never said anything about the probability of the formation of the Earth.

And similar to the probability of the formation of our universe, I don't believe we'd have enough information to make such a calculation meaningful.

 

[Speedwell]

Oh no I'm not. That's to you. Well if it didn't happen by chance, then what? How many choices are there? Lol...

It depends on what you mean by "chance."

 

[Divide]

I never said anything about the probability of the formation of the Earth.

And similar to the probability of the formation of our universe, I don't believe we'd have enough information to make such a calculation meaningful.

They did that calculation somehow, of the probability of other worlds within our galaxy with the ability of insteller communication. I could prolly find it for you if you want. It's like 1-150th or something like that. Way above being an absurdity according to Borels law.

They're real inasmuch as they're there, but they are demonic.

 

[Divide]

It depends on what you mean by "chance."

You know, the anti-there is no evidence for creation crowd in the topic, lol. That there was a big bang and everything sort of fell into place.

Personally, I've wondered if when Jesus spoke and created everything...that there was a big bang then!