Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

[Divide]

You seem to be all over the place brother. First you said it was due to the natural laws which govern the univers, and now you're saying faith?! Are you a Christian? An Evolutionist Christian?

What's an Angilican?

 

[AV1611VET]

So prove it. Don't be so coy. I believe in God and His authorship of the universe already, and believe that can only be known through faith, not science, but I would be interested to see what you've got.

Cause and effect:

• Christian literature
• Christian edifices
• Christian testimonies
• Christian holidays
• Christian martyrs

 

[Speedwell]

Well what do you believe? that God created the world Himself?

Didn't I just tell you that? I believe in God, the father almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things both visisble and invisible. Really, it's not hard to figure out where I stand on this issue.

 

[Speedwell]

You seem to be all over the place brother. First you said it was due to the natural laws which govern the univers, and now you're saying faith?! Are you a Christian? An Evolutionist Christian?

What's an Angilican?

Who do you think created the natural laws and the matter which they govern?

 

[Divide]

Who do you think created the natural laws and the matter which they govern?

Ok cool. So we're on the same page then.

It's the other guys who are being silent now....(let me get them to set up a foundation for me and then it's going to get interesting...I promise!)
Oh, they'll yell at me, lol

 

[Ophiolite]

You seem to be all over the place brother. First you said it was due to the natural laws which govern the univers, and now you're saying faith?! Are you a Christian? An Evolutionist Christian?

What's an Angilican?

No idea what an Angilican is, but I'm somewhat surprised you don't know what an Anglican is since, as far as I know, they are outnumbered in Chrisitian denominations only by Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox community.

 

[Speedwell]

Cause and effect:

• Christian literature
• Christian edifices
• Christian testimonies
• Christian holidays
• Christian martyrs

Muslim literature
Muslim edifices
Muslim testimonies
Muslim holidays
Muslim martyrs

Buddhist literature
Buddhist edifices
Buddhist testimonies
Buddhist holidays
Buddhist martyrs

Hindu literature
Hindu edifices
Hindu testimonies
Hindu holidays
Hindu martyrs

and so on.

All of those things testify to the existence of the belief, not the truth of it.

 

[Divide]

No idea what an Angilican is, but I'm somewhat surprised you don't know what an Anglican is since, as far as I know, they are outnumbered in Chrisitian denominations only by Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox community.

I know very little about denominations brother. To me there is no denominations. Only men and God. I study Jesus and His teachings. I know SDA that I agree some with, and some others that I partially agree with. What it amounts to is no one has all of the answers, but everyone has some truth.

 

[Divide]

I'll check back in later and see if anyone came up with a summary of 5 sentences for me.

 

[Skreeper]

You all assert that the universe and earth and life on earth happened randomly and by chance, so I asked if this is a fair statement.

Does matter + Energy + Entropy (randomness) = Life?

I am not sure how life started on earth but so far the research done in abiogenesis suggests it started by natural mechanisms.

 

[Ophiolite]

I'll check back in later and see if anyone came up with a summary of 5 sentences for me.

I have not checked every one of your posts, but the only one I could find was directed at Speedwell. You said this:

"Ok. I tell ya' what. How about if you give me 5 sentences, to summarize what is it your position, if it is not one which includes God, as a designer/creator. Fair enough?"

I don't wish to invest even more time trawling through the thread to determine what position you are refering to. Would you just restate your request clearly, concisely and comprehensively, then I can respond.

 

[AV1611VET]

All of those things testify to the existence of the belief, not the truth of it.

But can you tell me, as a Christian, which of the four is the real set of evidence?

 

[Speedwell]

But can you tell me, as a Christian, which of the four is the real set of evidence?

None of the above.

 

[AV1611VET]

None of the above.

You're kidding me!?

As a Christian yourself, you can't see that three of those sets are lies, and one is the truth?

For example, do you believe both the Koran (Muslim) and the Bible (Christian) are lies?

 

[Speedwell]

You're kidding me!?

As a Christian yourself, you can't see that three of those sets are lies, and one is the truth?

For example, do you believe both the Koran (Muslim) and the Bible (Christian) are lies?

That is a different question altogether. Your original assertion was that they were evidence. If you accept the existence of Christian literature, edifices, testimonies, holidays and martyrs as evidence of the truth claims of Christianity, why do you not accept the existence of Hindu literature, edifices, testimonies, holidays and martyrs as evidence of the truth claims of Hinduism?

 

[AV1611VET]

That is a different question altogether. Your original assertion was that they were evidence.

More precisely, cause-and-effect evidence.

The same kind Jesus used to convince John the Baptist:

Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

And the same kind Jesus used to convince Thomas:

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

In the above passage, according to your logic, anyone showing Thomas like scars would should be just as convincing, even if the scars are clearly fakes.

 

[Speedwell]

More precisely, cause-and-effect evidence.

The same kind Jesus used to convince John the Baptist:

Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

And the same kind Jesus used to convince Thomas:

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

In the above passage, according to your logic, anyone showing Thomas like scars would should be just as convincing, even if the scars are clearly fakes.

Clearly? So you are saying that a Christian martyr goes to his death truly believing, but a Hindu martyr is only pretending to believe?

 

[AV1611VET]

Clearly?

Yes, clearly.

And I challenge the educated elite to put their claims under a microscope and show otherwise.

So you are saying that a Christian martyr goes to his death truly believing, but a Hindu martyr is only pretending to believe?

No.

I'm saying the Christian believer is believing the truth, whereas a Hindu martyr is believing a lie.

And I suspect you'll agree with me.

 

[Skreeper]

And I challenge the educated elite to put their claims under a microscope and show otherwise.

Maybe you should start a challenge thread for that.....shoot why did I just say that?

 

[Speedwell]

Yes, clearly.

And I challenge the educated elite to put their claims under a microscope and show otherwise.
No.

I'm saying the Christian believer is believing the truth, whereas a Hindu martyr is believing a lie.

And I suspect you'll agree with me.

Yes, but the martyrdom itself is not evidence of the truth of the belief. The Christian and the Hindu are both martyrs, irrespective of the truth of their beliefs.