Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

gaara4158 · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
Oh, well I have suspected (and now know for sure) that there is more here than (our natural realm) what we can see.

This is what I'm trying to ask you about. This suspicion. Where did it come from? Is it from reason? Evidence? Or is it just a gut feeling, and emotional desire?

Divide said:
And as time goes on, archaeological discoveries support this notion. They have found evidence of King David in discoveries. They have found evidence of the Red Sea crossing underwater over there, Noah's Ark, and all sorts of stuff. Even as a child and I read about Greek Mythology, I wondered...why would they make a science fiction book/writings about all that sort of stuff? It probably is true. What it comes to is, I am not so big headed to think that I am the epitome of life in the universe. Lol.

Holy credulousness, Batman! Where to begin? Tell me about these "discoveries" that corroborate the Bible's narrative of King David's reign. Show me the evidence of the mass exodus of Jews out of Egypt into Israel. Show me the evidence of Noah's Ark. Have you seen this evidence yourself?

And hold on just a minute. Are you saying you also believe the ancient Greek Mythology? Do you seriously believe all ancient myths because you can't imagine why someone would make them up? Man, you say you're a critical thinker but this is the opposite of that. Do you think Spider-Man is real too? Storytelling is a time-honored tradition that spans across all human cultures. It has more utility than simply recording historical events. There's a rich history of storytelling available at your fingertips if you'll just Google it.

Divide said:
The theory has been blown out of the water. But you would not be able to receive that information because you have a different way of thinking and have decided that you do not want to believe in anything else. (how you sound at least).

I do not want to believe anything that is false. If you believe the theory has been blown out of the water, show me evidence. So far, you're just applying radical skepticism to evolution, requiring me to have had a hand in every experiment, archaeological dig, and genetic study confirming evolution while you take ancient, fantastical stories at face value because "eh, why not?" This is not how a critical thinker operates. This is how someone lies to themselves. If you're really itching for firsthand confirmation of an evolutionary experiment, I believe PsychoSarah is documenting one in another thread.

Divide said:
So the theory has been tested eh? Ok, have you gone ahead and tested for yourself any of these tests? Or are you simply taking their word for it, and putting your faith and trust into man rather than yourself or God? I mean gee, after all, man is perfect and never makes mistakes or fouls procedures or anything like that, right? (Lol)

Read my last reply again. It's not a matter of faith to accept the results of multiple, independent fields of study over the course of 150+ years. It's a matter of parsimony. Either all the evidence points to evolution as agreed upon by the scientific community, or there is a vast conspiracy spanning multiple disciplines over 150 years to make it appear that way. The burden of proof is on you to show that such a conspiracy exists if you mean to support the claim you made that the theory has been "blown out of the water." (lol)

Divide said:
Scripture says that God will not be tested. He is not a vending machine, nor a magic show or genie in a bottle that we can come order around to perform tricks for us and our amusement and entertainment.

This is special pleading. You're holding me to a standard of evidence you refuse to meet yourself. A critical, analytical thinker will immediately see a red flag whenever someone insists they are not to be tested. Tests are how we confirm what's real. If testing God is forbidden, confirming he's real isn't possible. Why would something real be so averse to testing? There's no need to amuse us or grant wishes (although apparently that was totally his shtick in the Gospel). But there is a need to manifest physically in a way that can be confirmed if he's to be considered real.

Divide said:
However, in one place in scripture it does say "Test me on this" and that has to do with tithing. So I did. It says it's ok to test God this way so I had no fear to put it to the test. Long story short, I tested and retested so much that it got to the point to where I knew the point had been made and I was beginning to feel as if I was taking advantage of it, and that sort of scared me a little bit so I went ahead and stopped and said wow. It really is true. You tithe your money in and you get blessed back with more than you tithed. It's almost like a money machine. Geez, it's true what the scripture says...you can't outgive God.

Right, "Don't test God unless it involves giving money to your local religious authorities." - written by a local religious authority. I love it. I wonder, how rigorous was this test? Did you record a period of tithing and compare it against a period of non-tithing? Did you keep your spending patterns constant during both periods? How did you quantify "blessings" received in return for tithes? How many times did you conduct this test?

Divide · Nov 5, 2017

pitabread said:
This is highly presumptuous of you.

You're assuming that atheists actively tried to believe in God in the first place, as opposed to simply adopting a position based on lack of evidence for such a being. The latter seems to be the position of many atheists I have talked to.

Actually, those atheists who have adopted the position of God doesn't exist and Jesus never came to earth, based on a lack of evidence...have taken this position presumptuously. Because as time goes on, more and more evidence is being unearthed. I think that if they are really searching for the evidence, then they will find it, and if they wont receive the evidence...then they probably don't really want evidence, they probably are comfortable in their position and only seek to be right within their belief system and not really find the real truth. Here's some evidence right here:

Divide · Nov 5, 2017

gaara4158 said:
This is what I'm trying to ask you about. This suspicion. Where did it come from? Is it from reason? Evidence? Or is it just a gut feeling, and emotional desire?

All evidence is not based on reason and logic. Some things we know in our heart to be so. Some tings ring of the truth to us.

Have you ever been talking with someone, and they were lying to you, and you just "knew it"?
That's what I'm talking about right there.

gaara4158 said:
But there is a need to manifest physically in a way that can be confirmed if he's to be considered real.

Well He spoke to me audibly. That was a manifestation. It did confirm everything for me. But you're not willing to take my word for it. I'm not trying to sell you a book or a CD. So This doesn't involve giving money to a religious authority...so you have no reason to reject it...yet you will.

gaara4158 said:
I wonder, how rigorous was this test? Did you record a period of tithing and compare it against a period of non-tithing? Did you keep your spending patterns constant during both periods? How did you quantify "blessings" received in return for tithes? How many times did you conduct this test?

Yes it was rigorous and yes I did take notes for comparison to non tithing periods. I was in business at the time and so that part was easy for me because I would keep track of the money anyway, and be able to compare it with income from previous periods. All businesses have slow times and periods of increased activity. But you wont accept that either because you're obviously just looking for ways to poke holes in what I say.

So...believe whatever it is that you want to believe. You can do that. I know the truth about God. I hope you find it too one day.

gaara4158 · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
All evidence is not based on reason and logic. Some things we know in our heart to be so. Some tings ring of the truth to us.

Have you ever been talking with someone, and they were lying to you, and you just "knew it"?
That's what I'm talking about right there.

You're talking about intuition, which is not a reliable method to finding the truth. It's a mental shortcut we use so we don't have to spend the cognitive labor of manually analyzing every single thing we encounter, but it is often wrong and therefore cannot be relied upon to determine the truth of something. That's why we have science in the first place. Reality isn't always intuitive.

Ever been accused of something you didn't do? How confidently did the accuser "know" you did it? That's what I mean. You can't argue something is true just because it "feels" that way, no matter how much you want to.

Divide said:
Well He spoke to me audibly. That was a manifestation. It did confirm everything for me. But you're not willing to take my word for it. I'm not trying to sell you a book or a CD. So This doesn't involve giving money to a religious authority...so you have no reason to reject it...yet you will.

How did you know it was him? Did anyone else hear him? Do you have a recording? I'll happily go along with you if you can demonstrate to me that God indeed manifested physically to you. Somehow I think you'll find an excuse not to.

And how can you say I have no reason to reject something just because I can't cynically assign capitalistic motives to you? There's plenty of other reasons to reject someone's claims, not least of all being their failure to substantiate them. For someone who claims to be an analytical, critical thinker, you're really not showing it.

Divide said:
Yes it was rigorous and yes I did take notes for comparison to non tithing periods. I was in business at the time and so that part was easy for me because I would keep track of the money anyway, and be able to compare it with income from previous periods. All businesses have slow times and periods of increased activity. But you wont accept that either because you're obviously just looking for ways to poke holes in what I say.

Why should I accept it if you can't demonstrate it? The whole point of recording everything rigorously would be to demonstrate a clear pattern of improvement against regular economic patterns. Even if you could do that, you'd then have to demonstrate that the agent behind this improvement is indeed God. Why should I take your word for it?

The only correct thing you've said so far is I won't believe you. And why should I? You present no good evidence.

ruthiesea · Nov 5, 2017

AV1611VET said:
The Bible may not be science or history overall, but do you agree that science and history are found within Its pages?

When talking about the first five books, it just doesn't matter. They may be, at best, historical fiction, or, at worst, total fiction. historically. The following books are more likely to be historical fiction, which of course, dies not mean the underlining history may be false.

I'm not sure what you mean about finding science in the Bible. I've never detected any. There are some things that have been mistaken for science, such as the creation story, but are not.

HitchSlap · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
Actually, those atheists who have adopted the position of God doesn't exist and Jesus never came to earth, based on a lack of evidence...have taken this position presumptuously. Because as time goes on, more and more evidence is being unearthed. I think that if they are really searching for the evidence, then they will find it, and if they wont receive the evidence...then they probably don't really want evidence, they probably are comfortable in their position and only seek to be right within their belief system and not really find the real truth. Here's some evidence right here:

.... Ron Wyatt...

Divide · Nov 5, 2017

gaara4158 said:
You're talking about intuition, which is not a reliable method to finding the truth. It's a mental shortcut we use so we don't have to spend the cognitive labor of manually analyzing every single thing we encounter, but it is often wrong and therefore cannot be relied upon to determine the truth of something. That's why we have science in the first place. Reality isn't always intuitive.

No I am not talking about intuition. Intuition is real and we all use it, but I'm about things that are spiritually discerned or revealed by God. Christians get truths revealed to them through God's Holy Spirit. It is spiritual and not intuition.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.../

Now I don't think that you will be able to understand that, but it is something that is very real whether you believe in it or not. You claim on your tag to be a humanist and I don't even know what that is, but you sound like an atheist. So of course this is all foolishness to you. That doesn't make it unreal, it just means that it is something that you have no concept of. No offense, but it's the truth.

gaara4158 said:
How did you know it was him? Did anyone else hear him? Do you have a recording? I'll happily go along with you if you can demonstrate to me that God indeed manifested physically to you. Somehow I think you'll find an excuse not to.

Because I'm one of His sheep, and His sheep know His voice.(John 10:27). And how could I demonstrate this to you? I do not tell God when and where to speak. I can not. I also did not claim that God manifested to my physically. I said that He manifested Himself to me audibly. There is no excuse to not do this, I simply can not tell God when and where to speak. No one can. That's why He is GOD. That's a fairly absurd notion that you're putting forth that this is an excuse of mine to not do it.

When He spoke to me, His presence came upon me like a ton of bricks. BAM. He was there, and I knew it. When you come into His presence one day...you will know it too. It's that strong. It's that powerful. It's that loving. It's that fearful. It's that...Godlike. It was Him. He didn't introduce Himself. He didn't need to. It was God. There is no mistake when God comes into the room.

I'm not talking about the feeling one gets when one is...in the Spirit...the Holy Spirit is less pronounced when He comes. It feels good and all that, but when big Daddy comes into the room...it's a whole 'nother ballgame brother. I've never felt the presence of God so powerful either before then or after then, to date. You doubt all you want to but it was real and nothing you can say will change that.

gaara4158 said:
For someone who claims to be an analytical, critical thinker, you're really not showing it.

Boy, you're really hanging on to that critical thinking statement aren't you?! You think you got me with that or something? lol.

Ok, let's pick through this, Mr. nit-picker (lol)...
Critical thinking is the objective analysis of facts to form a judgment. The subject is complex, and there are several different definitions which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis or evaluation of factual evidence...Agreed? (Wiki source!)

So you think that I'm not being objective? (Wrong). Rational, skeptical and unbiased...that is what I have been in this thread. No emotion is involved, nor are pre-conceived notions or indoctrination's. Just the facts.

Maybe your idea of a fact is different than mine? My idea of a fact is something that is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. It just is. It's a fact. 2+2=4 is a fact. That the sky is blue is a fact.

Most facts are able to be taken into a laboratory and tested by experimentation and will always have the same predictable results. You are of this camp, yes? If it can't be tested then it's not real. Well, that may hold true for many things but it isn't true about God. Or some other things.

Because God can not be taken into a laboratory and tested like a magic show doesn't mean that He's not real or factual.

Do you love your Wife? You do? Prove it. Test it for me. Get out a test tube and let's do the test.

You can't do it. That doesn't mean that you do not love your wife. It means it is an untestable fact.

I didn't make the rules, God did. I suspect that your problem is with Him and not me. Nevertheless, God knew there'd be people like you, so He did leave some evidences. They found Noah's Ark. They found chariot wheels and horse bones at the bottom of the Red Sea. They found archaeological evidences of the Israelite's being in slavery in Egypt in writings that were uncovered. You want me to post a few of these videos?

Or would you just find an excuse to shoot them down too?
You should've been a lawyer they way you wont accept anything. Are you divorced yet? (J/K)

pitabread · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
Actually, those atheists who have adopted the position of God doesn't exist and Jesus never came to earth, based on a lack of evidence...have taken this position presumptuously. Because as time goes on, more and more evidence is being unearthed. I think that if they are really searching for the evidence, then they will find it, and if they wont receive the evidence...then they probably don't really want evidence, they probably are comfortable in their position and only seek to be right within their belief system and not really find the real truth.

You appear to be under the further assumption that atheists are not exposed to arguments or evidence theists put forward for their positions. But that's just silly, especially given that you're dealing with atheists right now on a Christian web site.

I've spent over a decade discussing and debating these subjects with theists of various backgrounds. I've been presented lots of apologetics arguments, evidence or "proofs" of God and so on. In fact, I find the idea of the possibility of a divine, supernatural being fascinating and actively seek out such evidence.

However, I've yet to see a good argument for said being. I find the standard for evidence among theists tend to vary wildly and what some consider solid evidence for the presence of a supernatural being, I find lacking.

Here's some evidence right here:

First of all, just based on the video itself, it's all assertion. You'd basically have to take Wyatt's word for it.

Second of all, Ron Wyatt? Really??? If you wanted to present evidence to a non-believer, anything from Ron Wyatt is probably the worst thing to present (with Ray Comfort a close second) given he had zero credibility among Bible scholars and has even has been denounced by other creationist organizations.

Here are a couple examples of rebuttals from AiG, for example:

Has the Ark of the Covenant Been Found?
Maintaining Creationist Integrity

PsychoSarah · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
Actually, those atheists who have adopted the position of God doesn't exist and Jesus never came to earth, based on a lack of evidence...have taken this position presumptuously.

-_- this is not what I do. I pragmatically behave as though deities don't exist due to the lack of evidence for them; same reason you don't account for the will of Vishnu in your daily life. As for Jesus never coming to Earth, that is a position I definitely do not hold. Rather, I think what the bible says about Jesus is most likely a compilation of the lives of multiple notable people, with some exaggeration.

Divide said:
Because as time goes on, more and more evidence is being unearthed. I think that if they are really searching for the evidence, then they will find it, and if they wont receive the evidence...then they probably don't really want evidence, they probably are comfortable in their position and only seek to be right within their belief system and not really find the real truth. Here's some evidence right here:

The Ark of the Covenant has never been found, nor would it make sense for it to have been anywhere near Jesus at the time of crucifixion. It's last mentioned location prior to the crucifixion was either in Babylon, or destroyed (not clarified). Revelations mentions it as being in heaven, not on Earth, so there shouldn't actually be an ark to find.

In looking for actual miracles, the most interesting one I have found is "incorruptible corpses"; that is, the corpses of people that seem to not decay, despite not being in conditions that would be reasonably expected to restrict decay, such as Saint Bernadette (who, of the few bodies like this, seems to look the most life-like). Unfortunately, I don't consider this a sign of divinity in and of itself, because the sort of people this happens to seems to be completely random (both saints, sinners, and everything in between). Perhaps if this only happened to Christians it'd be more notable, but it doesn't.

HitchSlap · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
No I am not talking about intuition. Intuition is real and we all use it, but I'm about things that are spiritually discerned or revealed by God. Christians get truths revealed to them through God's Holy Spirit. It is spiritual and not intuition.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.../

Now I don't think that you will be able to understand that, but it is something that is very real whether you believe in it or not. You claim on your tag to be a humanist and I don't even know what that is, but you sound like an atheist. So of course this is all foolishness to you. That doesn't make it unreal, it just means that it is something that you have no concept of. No offense, but it's the truth.

Because I'm one of His sheep, and His sheep know His voice.(John 10:27). And how could I demonstrate this to you? I do not tell God when and where to speak. I can not. I also did not claim that God manifested to my physically. I said that He manifested Himself to me audibly. There is no excuse to not do this, I simply can not tell God when and where to speak. No one can. That's why He is GOD. That's a fairly absurd notion that you're putting forth that this is an excuse of mine to not do it.

When He spoke to me, His presence came upon me like a ton of bricks. BAM. He was there, and I knew it. When you come into His presence one day...you will know it too. It's that strong. It's that powerful. It's that loving. It's that fearful. It's that...Godlike. It was Him. He didn't introduce Himself. He didn't need to. It was God. There is no mistake when God comes into the room.

I'm not talking about the feeling one gets when one is...in the Spirit...the Holy Spirit is less pronounced when He comes. It feels good and all that, but when big Daddy comes into the room...it's a whole 'nother ballgame brother. I've never felt the presence of God so powerful either before then or after then, to date. You doubt all you want to but it was real and nothing you can say will change that.

Boy, you're really hanging on to that critical thinking statement aren't you?! You think you got me with that or something? lol.

Ok, let's pick through this, Mr. nit-picker (lol)...
Critical thinking is the objective analysis of facts to form a judgment. The subject is complex, and there are several different definitions which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis or evaluation of factual evidence...Agreed? (Wiki source!)

So you think that I'm not being objective? (Wrong). Rational, skeptical and unbiased...that is what I have been in this thread. No emotion is involved, nor are pre-conceived notions or indoctrination's. Just the facts.

Maybe your idea of a fact is different than mine? My idea of a fact is something that is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. It just is. It's a fact. 2+2=4 is a fact. That the sky is blue is a fact.

Most facts are able to be taken into a laboratory and tested by experimentation and will always have the same predictable results. You are of this camp, yes? If it can't be tested then it's not real. Well, that may hold true for many things but it isn't true about God. Or some other things.

Because God can not be taken into a laboratory and tested like a magic show doesn't mean that He's not real or factual.

Do you love your Wife? You do? Prove it. Test it for me. Get out a test tube and let's do the test.

You can't do it. That doesn't mean that you do not love your wife. It means it is an untestable fact.

I didn't make the rules, God did. I suspect that your problem is with Him and not me. Nevertheless, God knew there'd be people like you, so He did leave some evidences. They found Noah's Ark. They found chariot wheels and horse bones at the bottom of the Red Sea. They found archaeological evidences of the Israelite's being in slavery in Egypt in writings that were uncovered. You want me to post a few of these videos?

Or would you just find an excuse to shoot them down too?
You should've been a lawyer they way you wont accept anything. Are you divorced yet? (J/K)

The Jews were never enslaved in Egypt.

Jewish slaves didn’t build the pyramids.

There was no “exodus.”

pitabread · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
I didn't make the rules, God did. I suspect that your problem is with Him and not me. Nevertheless, God knew there'd be people like you, so He did leave some evidences. They found Noah's Ark. They found chariot wheels and horse bones at the bottom of the Red Sea. They found archaeological evidences of the Israelite's being in slavery in Egypt in writings that were uncovered. You want me to post a few of these videos?

If it's more Ron Wyatt stuff, post away. Just don't expect anyone to take it seriously.

gaara4158 · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
No I am not talking about intuition. Intuition is real and we all use it, but I'm about things that are spiritually discerned or revealed by God. Christians get truths revealed to them through God's Holy Spirit. It is spiritual and not intuition.

Then that's a whole new claim you need to justify. Define spiritual. Explain how you identify a spiritual revelation versus a regular gut feeling or intuition. Sorry, but "I feel it in my heart" just isn't good evidence to reasonable people.

Divide said:
Now I don't think that you will be able to understand that, but it is something that is very real whether you believe in it or not. You claim on your tag to be a humanist and I don't even know what that is, but you sound like an atheist. So of course this is all foolishness to you. That doesn't make it unreal, it just means that it is something that you have no concept of. No offense, but it's the truth.

Secular humanism is basically atheism with a heightened importance placed on the well-being of humankind. It embraces reason, naturalism, and justice while rejecting religious dogma, superstition, and pseudoscience. In any case, I understand your position well enough. Remember, I was just like you about a decade ago. You do not value reason, evidence, or logic above emotion, intuition, or desire. You're convinced you have this sixth-sense that allows you to access a spiritual dimension that you can't demonstrate to anyone else, you just feel it. You're satisfied believing something because it feels good, whether or not it makes sense or fits the data. No offense, but that's childish. You really need to reassess the method by which you determine what is true and what isn't.

Divide said:
Because I'm one of His sheep, and His sheep know His voice.(John 10:27). And how could I demonstrate this to you? I do not tell God when and where to speak. I can not. I also did not claim that God manifested to my physically. I said that He manifested Himself to me audibly. There is no excuse to not do this, I simply can not tell God when and where to speak. No one can. That's why He is GOD. That's a fairly absurd notion that you're putting forth that this is an excuse of mine to not do it.

Auditory manifestations are physical disturbances traveling through a medium, AKA sound waves. You could start by demonstrating that there was indeed a sound and not just you hearing things. There are plenty of ways to record sounds, just pick one. As for proving it was God making that sound, good luck. I don't know how you would prove that, and I doubt you do either. It makes me wonder how you determined this for yourself. Let me guess... you just know? Good for you, but that's not going to convince anyone reasonable, and you shouldn't be so sure yourself.

Divide said:
Critical thinking is the objective analysis of facts to form a judgment. The subject is complex, and there are several different definitions which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis or evaluation of factual evidence...Agrees

Yup. So tell me, what facts have you analyzed to form the judgment that the theory of evolution is false? I was under the impression you hadn't investigated very far into it before rejecting it wholesale in favor of something you subjectively felt was true. It doesn't matter whether you call this subjective feeling God, the Spirit, intuition, your gut, whatever. It's subjective because you can't demonstrate it to someone else using factual evidence.

Divide said:
So you think that I'm not being objective? (Wrong). Rational, skeptical and unbiased...that is what I have been in this thread. No emotion is involved, nor are pre-conceived notions or indoctrination's. Just the facts.

You are absolutely not being objective in this thread, and I've done my best to demonstrate that to you. You claim you're talking about facts but you haven't been able to back up a single one. You just keep piling assertions on top of assertions, alluding to a "spiritual understanding" that you can't explain, justify, or demonstrate.

Divide said:
Because God can not be taken into a laboratory and tested like a magic show doesn't mean that He's not real or factual.

Not all tests take place in laboratories. But you're right, just because something can't be tested doesn't mean it's not true. But tests are how we find good evidence. If something can't be tested, there can't be good evidence for it. If you don't have good evidence for it, why should you believe it?

Divide said:
Do you love your Wife? You do? Prove it. Test it for me. Get out a test tube and let's do the test.

You can't do it. That doesn't mean that you do not love your wife. It means it is an untestable fact.

You actually can, in many ways. Love is demonstrated physically in brain states, involuntary bodily reactions, and voluntary behaviors. Gathering data in either of these areas constitutes a test that would yield evidence of my love for my wife. Again, not all tests take place in a lab.

Divide said:
They found Noah's Ark. They found chariot wheels and horse bones at the bottom of the Red Sea. They found archaeological evidences of the Israelite's being in slavery in Egypt in writings that were uncovered. You want me to post a few of these videos?

Or would you just find an excuse to shoot them down too?
You should've been a lawyer they way you wont accept anything. Are you divorced yet? (J/K)

I've already asked you to provide your evidence for these things. You seemed to have ignored that part of my post. You can post your videos, but I prefer written sources as I don't often have the time or attention span to dig up the sources the videos cite. Either way, yes, I will do my best to determine the validity of your source's claims. I don't just accept everything I see or read at face value. Do you think I should?

Divide · Nov 5, 2017

pitabread said:
You appear to be under the further assumption that atheists are not exposed to arguments or evidence theists put forward for their positions. But that's just silly, especially given that you're dealing with atheists right now on a Christian web site.

I've spent over a decade discussing and debating these subjects with theists of various backgrounds. I've been presented lots of apologetics arguments, evidence or "proofs" of God and so on. In fact, I find the idea of the possibility of a divine, supernatural being fascinating and actively seek out such evidence.

However, I've yet to see a good argument for said being. I find the standard for evidence among theists tend to vary wildly and what some consider solid evidence for the presence of a supernatural being, I find lacking.

First of all, just based on the video itself, it's all assertion. You'd basically have to take Wyatt's word for it.

Second of all, Ron Wyatt? Really??? If you wanted to present evidence to a non-believer, anything from Ron Wyatt is probably the worst thing to present (with Ray Comfort a close second) given he had zero credibility among Bible scholars and has even has been denounced by other creationist organizations.

Here are a couple examples of rebuttals from AiG, for example:

Has the Ark of the Covenant Been Found?
Maintaining Creationist Integrity

Yeah, that's a little weird to me. I came here to talk with Brothers and Sisters in Christ...and there's a whole lot of atheists here. Why do atheists hang out on a Christian board? That boggles my mind. I don't mind talking to them, but many times, they act like they just want to shoot people down and don't even care about what they're saying.

If they have questions about God because they don't know what to believe, then I could understand that. But many of these ones seem like all they want to do is to nit pick and shoot people down. Like maybe they're goal is to shake weak Christians faith or something. Mine can't be shaken, no matter what they say.

Ron Wyatt is credible. Just because some people have attacked him in print doesn't mean anything other than...he's dangerous because he speaks the truth. So he gets attacked.

I know Ron Wyatt speaks the truth, because When I was watching his videos, God quickened my spirit to let me know that what I was watching was the truth. He does that for me. I don't expect the atheists to believe that, but I don't really care either, lol. Rons a good guy though and totally credible.

Divide · Nov 5, 2017

gaara4158 said:
Then that's a whole new claim you need to justify. Define spiritual. Explain how you identify a spiritual revelation versus a regular gut feeling or intuition. Sorry, but "I feel it in my heart" just isn't good evidence to reasonable people.

Secular humanism is basically atheism with a heightened importance placed on the well-being of humankind. It embraces reason, naturalism, and justice while rejecting religious dogma, superstition, and pseudoscience. In any case, I understand your position well enough. Remember, I was just like you about a decade ago. You do not value reason, evidence, or logic above emotion, intuition, or desire. You're convinced you have this sixth-sense that allows you to access a spiritual dimension that you can't demonstrate to anyone else, you just feel it. You're satisfied believing something because it feels good, whether or not it makes sense or fits the data. No offense, but that's childish. You really need to reassess the method by which you determine what is true and what isn't.

Auditory manifestations are physical disturbances traveling through a medium, AKA sound waves. You could start by demonstrating that there was indeed a sound and not just you hearing things. There are plenty of ways to record sounds, just pick one. As for proving it was God making that sound, good luck. I don't know how you would prove that, and I doubt you do either. It makes me wonder how you determined this for yourself. Let me guess... you just know? Good for you, but that's not going to convince anyone reasonable, and you shouldn't be so sure yourself.

Yup. So tell me, what facts have you analyzed to form the judgment that the theory of evolution is false? I was under the impression you hadn't investigated very far into it before rejecting it wholesale in favor of something you subjectively felt was true. It doesn't matter whether you call this subjective feeling God, the Spirit, intuition, your gut, whatever. It's subjective because you can't demonstrate it to someone else using factual evidence.

You are absolutely not being objective in this thread, and I've done my best to demonstrate that to you. You claim you're talking about facts but you haven't been able to back up a single one. You just keep piling assertions on top of assertions, alluding to a "spiritual understanding" that you can't explain, justify, or demonstrate.

Not all tests take place in laboratories. But you're right, just because something can't be tested doesn't mean it's not true. But tests are how we find good evidence. If something can't be tested, there can't be good evidence for it. If you don't have good evidence for it, why should you believe it?

You actually can, in many ways. Love is demonstrated physically in brain states, involuntary bodily reactions, and voluntary behaviors. Gathering data in either of these areas constitutes a test that would yield evidence of my love for my wife. Again, not all tests take place in a lab.

I've already asked you to provide your evidence for these things. You seemed to have ignored that part of my post. You can post your videos, but I prefer written sources as I don't often have the time or attention span to dig up the sources the videos cite. Either way, yes, I will do my best to determine the validity of your source's claims. I don't just accept everything I see or read at face value. Do you think I should?

No, that's ok. All you want to do is to nit pick me to death and I have better things to do than to waste time with you. Believe it or not, I don't care.

I know what's true for me and I feel no need to go proving every thing to you. Don't believe it if you don't want to. Have a good day brother.

gaara4158 · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
No, that's ok. All you want to do is to nit pick me to death and I have better things to do than to waste time with you. Believe it or not, I don't care.

I know what's true for me and I feel no need to go proving every thing to you. Don't believe it if you don't want to. Have a good day brother.

I don’t know what you’re doing here arguing against evolution if you’re not prepared to defend your assertions. Perhaps you should stick to the Christian-only sections.

PsychoSarah · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
Yeah, that's a little weird to me. I came here to talk with Brothers and Sisters in Christ...and there's a whole lot of atheists here. Why do atheists hang out on a Christian board?

Well, I have my improving patience reason, but debates don't really work if you don't have a person with an opposing view. That is, it's not like I have atheists to debate against when it comes to evolution specifically.

Also, you are making the decision to post in a subforum open to non-Christians. If you didn't want to talk to any atheists, this website makes that very easy to do.

Divide said:
That boggles my mind. I don't mind talking to them, but many times, they act like they just want to shoot people down and don't even care about what they're saying.

That applies to everyone debating, regardless of position. I see it a lot, but other times what you perceive as such is likely you taking personal offense to people disagreeing with you.

Divide said:
If they have questions about God because they don't know what to believe, then I could understand that. But many of these ones seem like all they want to do is to nit pick and shoot people down. Like maybe they're goal is to shake weak Christians faith or something. Mine can't be shaken, no matter what they say.

Pfft, no one's trying to convert you to atheism, dude. Most of the atheists that have participated in this subforum a lot have their patience wear down to nothing thanks to the repetitive arguments of the opposition. So, they are exceedingly blunt.

Divide said:
Ron Wyatt is credible. Just because some people have attacked him in print doesn't mean anything other than...he's dangerous because he speaks the truth. So he gets attacked.

I have never heard of Ron Wyatt, so no comment.

Divide said:
I know Ron Wyatt speaks the truth, because When I was watching his videos, God quickened my spirit to let me know that what I was watching was the truth. He does that for me. I don't expect the atheists to believe that, but I don't really care either, lol. Rons a good guy though and totally credible.

Ooo, use that to determine which of these statements are true, and which are lies, and which are a mix.

1. My sister's first favorite color was pink, but she changes it so often now I have no idea what it currently is.

2. My first favorite color was yellow, and I have only had it change 4 times in my whole life. This makes the sequence of favorite colors for me yellow, peach pink, red, blue, and purple.

3. I have no idea what my father's favorite color is, as I have never asked.

4. My fiance was born in the same month and on the same day as my paternal grandfather.

5. I keep track of what year my grandmother was born using the movie Who Framed Rodger Rabbit, because the events of the movie take place the same year she was born.

Can you tell what is true? Can you tell what is false? Can you tell what is a mixture of true and false? I'd be very interested if you can.

Divide · Nov 5, 2017

PsychoSarah said:
That applies to everyone debating, regardless of position. I see it a lot, but other times what you perceive as such is likely you taking personal offense to people disagreeing with you.

No it's not me taking personal offense to it, but I've talked to some of their types before on other boards, and I have posted documentations and all that, and then they come out with, oh he's not credible blah blah blah, and always something like that. But stuff that they post, I'm supposed to take as entirely credible and no way their guy could be wrong, it's a given he's right. And on and on and on. There's discussion, and consideration for other views...and then there's just people who like to argue and no matter what you say or who you cite, it's wrong. And I don't go for that anymore.

I tried a little bit with this guy and he's showing the same traits that I've seen before. He's not looking for answers. He's looking for an argument or to shoot someone down. It's a game to him.
If I had posted my notes on when I tested God about tithing, then he would have accused me of doctoring them and lying. Maybe if he wants to set up and pay for a lie detector session I'll go and recount when God spoke to me. I wont let anyone put me under hypnosis though.

You seem to be different. We have opposing views on certain things, but you...are...more intelligent? more reasonable? Something. So I like talking to you. The other guy is sorta frustrating because I realize he's just playing games.

PsychoSarah said:
Ooo, use that to determine which of these statements are true, and which are lies, and which are a mix.

Can you tell what is true? Can you tell what is false? Can you tell what is a mixture of true and false? I'd be very interested if you can.

I couldn't do that unless you sent me a check for $49.95...Lol! No, I'm kidding.

I can't do that! That would be abusing it. Besides, it would be guaranteed to cause trouble on the board. Whether it was true or false it would bring out the opposition and I'd be accused of lying and all sorts of stuff. It's not something that I can sit there and say hey God, is this true? and He answers me. He just does it on His own, and it happens. It happens fairly frequently, but not always about all things.

That would be like fortune telling to try to do this on demand and we're not supposed to do that sort of thing. Especially on an open forum!

pitabread · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
I can't do that! That would be abusing it.

Funny how when people claim to have a special ability, they suddenly are unable to demonstrate it when put to the test.

pitabread · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
Yeah, that's a little weird to me. I came here to talk with Brothers and Sisters in Christ...and there's a whole lot of atheists here.

There are Christian-only sections on this site. If you don't want to interact with atheists, stick to those sections.

Why do atheists hang out on a Christian board? That boggles my mind. I don't mind talking to them, but many times, they act like they just want to shoot people down and don't even care about what they're saying.

I can't speak for others, but I used to participate here in C/E debates many years ago. I came back after quite an absence (and under a different account) mainly out of curiosity about whether anything had changed over the years (for the most part, it hasn't).

I stick around mainly for the sake of debate/discussion, and to learn the occasionally new thing about biology.

Ron Wyatt is credible. Just because some people have attacked him in print doesn't mean anything other than...he's dangerous because he speaks the truth. So he gets attacked.

That's a rather silly benchmark for determining someone's credibility. They are a credible because they get attacked? Really?

I know Ron Wyatt speaks the truth, because When I was watching his videos, God quickened my spirit to let me know that what I was watching was the truth. He does that for me. I don't expect the atheists to believe that, but I don't really care either, lol. Rons a good guy though and totally credible.

You're right, nobody is going to believe that and I doubt that would be limited to just atheists.

Credibility can be gained via independent verification of claims. In Wyatt's case, that hasn't happened. That's why he is considered to be a non-credible source.

Simply getting warm fuzzies watching a video seems a poor standard for determining what is credible.

PsychoSarah · Nov 5, 2017

Divide said:
You seem to be different. We have opposing views on certain things, but you...are...more intelligent? more reasonable? Something. So I like talking to you. The other guy is sorta frustrating because I realize he's just playing games.

If you are talking about Hitchslap, then maybe. The guy has been on here for ages, and I think he has entirely given up serious debate. I don't know of anyone else this would apply to.

Divide said:
I couldn't do that unless you sent me a check for $49.95...Lol! No, I'm kidding.

I can't do that! That would be abusing it. Besides, it would be guaranteed to cause trouble on the board.

Dude, if you actually got them all correct, that would make for some instant conversion on my part, because I have never posted stuff anywhere that would give these things away as truth or lies. So, would doing it for the sake of converting people really be an abuse of it?

Divide said:
Whether it was true or false it would bring out the opposition and I'd be accused of lying and all sorts of stuff.

You be accused of lying? I think not. If anything, I'd be the one accused of lying, seeing as people have to rely on me to determine if the answers you give are right or not. The only way you'd be accused of lying is if you didn't get them right, and you believe in yourself, don't you?

Divide said:
It's not something that I can sit there and say hey God, is this true? and He answers me. He just does it on His own, and it happens. It happens fairly frequently, but not always about all things.

A shame you can't support your claim about it, then.

Divide said:
That would be like fortune telling to try to do this on demand and we're not supposed to do that sort of thing. Especially on an open forum!

It's not fortune telling, since it has nothing to do with determining the future or past, really.

Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

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