Why Must Salvation Only Come Through Torture and Self-Sacrifice?

[Hentenza]

Alright, God could make the bubblegum everlasting gum. Could he not?

He tried. People wanted more. Plus bubblegum rots your teeth.

 

[Paul 5]

My question still remains: why is sacrifice required for any type of love? Why couldn't the requirement be something else? It has to be torture and bloody death?

I don't know that painful sacrifice is necessary for love,however someone had to die for our sins,either us or God Himself in the form of Jesus Christ.

 

[Annoula]

My question still remains: why is sacrifice required for any type of love? Why couldn't the requirement be something else? It has to be torture and bloody death?

we live in a fallen world my dear. we don't like it but it's true.
we don't live in paradise.

and love is not always torture and bloody death.

denying our own needs because we love someone deeply is a true sacrifice. it does not ask for a physical torture, but it is a kind of torture because we won't be happy by denying our needs, but we freely opt to do so. and it's not physical death but it is the death of a little part of our selfishness.

is the movie "Passion" that influenced you so much?

 

[humblehumility]

He tried. People wanted more. Plus bubblegum rots your teeth.

He gave 2 people a shot at it, the first 2 humans to live. Nobody else got to see it.

Sugarfree everlasting bubblegum? I know we keep playing around with this funny example, but realistically there are a ton of better options than torture and suffering.

 

[Hentenza]

He gave 2 people a shot at it, the first 2 humans to live. Nobody else got to see it.

Actually no, He gave the chance to quite a few several times but they decided that they wanted something else.

Sugarfree everlasting bubblegum? I know we keep playing around with this funny example, but realistically there are a ton of better options than torture and suffering.

Well, some folks just don't like sugar free so now He would have to adjust everyone's palate so that all would equally like it and be satisfied. Plus we will need more folks that can treat TMJ because of all that chewing. I wonder if all folks will be able to afford it.

 

[humblehumility]

Actually no, He gave the chance to quite a few several times but they decided that they wanted something else.

The first 2 people were shown paradise and lived in it, nobody else. That's not fair, if God showed me the garden of eden today there's no way I'd eat from any tree or listen to any snake. Why does Adam get a shot but I don't? Or anybody else?

 

[Emmy]

Dear humblehumility. In Leviticus it says that the Lord called unto Moses and then Moses tells the Israelites in Leviticus, chapter 1, verse 5, that the offering shall be killed before the Lord and the blood shall be sprinkled round about the altar. Apparently blood-sacrifices have been given for atonement all through the Old Testament. At the end of it God lets the Israelites know, that He does not want the animal-sacrifices and their blood, God wants their Love, freely given for all their sins and transgressions. The O.T. Law wanted blood, free from sin and transgression. But there was no person without sin, and God could have given up on us, and let us get deeper and deeper into sin and utter ruin. But our God loves us and He is LOVE, and Jesus became our Saviour, out of pure Love for God and for all Humanity. We are free now, and the debt was paid by Jesus, and Jesus reconciled us to God. God wants our Love, and God wants us to repent, to change our character from selfishness to Love with hearts, souls and minds for God, and love for our neighbour as we love ourselves. God is not a God who uses Torture, God is Love, and self-sacrifice is not too much to be asked of us, it is only our SELFISHNESS which God wants us to get rid off, and have Love/Agape instead. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Hentenza]

The first 2 people were shown paradise and lived in it, nobody else. That's not fair, if God showed me the garden of eden today there's no way I'd eat from any tree or listen to any snake. Why does Adam get a shot but I don't? Or anybody else?

You would eat from it. All of us would. Would you not eat bubblegum from the bubblegum tree?

BTW- אָדָם translates as Adam but means mankind.

 

[humblehumility]

You would eat from it. All of us would. Would you not eat bubblegum from the bubblegum tree?

If God told me not to, I wouldn't. I'd hope that he was nice though and wanted me to eat his bubblegum.

BTW- אָדָם translates as Adam but means mankind.

Alright, so all of mankind is pre-determined to eat the fruit if given the opportunity? This negates free will, as we all have the freedom to choose not to eat the fruit.

 

[Hentenza]

If God told me not to, I wouldn't. I'd hope that he was nice though and wanted me to eat his bubblegum.

Why? He told Adam not to eat, what makes you think that you would not?

Alright, so all of mankind is pre-determined to eat the fruit if given the opportunity? This negates free will, as we all have the freedom to choose not to eat the fruit.

Oh yes, we all have "free" will and all of us would use that "free" will to eat from the bubblegum tree.

 

[humblehumility]

Why? He told Adam not to eat, what makes you think that you would not?

Because I am not Adam, and I would like to use my free will right to make the choice not to eat the fruit. Even if I do end up making the wrong choice, it is not free will if I don't at least have the opportunity to choose one way or another.

Oh yes, we all have "free" will and all of us would use that "free" will to eat from the bubblegum tree.

That's not free will then. If you are predetermined to commit an action, you have no freedom in the matter. You cannot choose one way or another because you are bound to just one way (of course it's the bad way).

Explain your definition of free will, because that's where the problem may be.

 

[Hentenza]

Because I am not Adam, and I would like to use my free will right to make the choice not to eat the fruit. Even if I do end up making the wrong choice, it is not free will if I don't at least have the opportunity to choose one way or another.

You are making the "choice" right now. Jesus gave you that "choice".

That's not free will then. If you are predetermined to commit an action, you have no freedom in the matter. You cannot choose one way or another because you are bound to just one way (of course it's the bad way).

Explain your definition of free will, because that's where the problem may be.

I place two bowls in front of my 5 year old child, one has cereal and the other has dog poop. I know which bowl he will pick, am I predetermining his choice or do I simply just know?

 

[humblehumility]

You are making the "choice" right now. Jesus gave you that "choice".

What choice am I making?

If I place two bowls in front of my 5 year old child, one has cereal and the other has dog poop. I know which bowl he will pick, am I predetermining his choice or do I simply just know?

You are not predetermining his choice, you are making an educated guess based on the fact that there is food in one bowl and poop in the other. You will never actually know you're right until you give him the free will choice to choose a bowl.

I was never given a choice of living in a sinless world, I was born into it. That is not free will, as I had no choice of living in a sinless or sinful world.

Again I'll ask for your definition of free will.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

My question still remains: why is sacrifice required for any type of love? Why couldn't the requirement be something else? It has to be torture and bloody death?

Jesus asked the same question, but yielded to his father's plan. We were made mortal for the purpose of the 'suffering and death' of our mortal bodies. Only God knows exactly why. But the suffering is only temporary. Mortal pain is just a teeny weeny slice of eternity.

 

[Habakk]

Sin has consequences not just before God but for ourselves and others. Our actions affect others in ways we don’t fully comprehend sometimes.

A simple example is of the judge presiding over a trial of an elderly lady. The court found the lady guilty of shoplifting; she had stolen food because she was hungry. The judge passing sentence said the law requires that I pass judgement because you have been found guilty and that requires a fine. However the judge acted with compassion and also told the lady that he would personally pay the fine on her behalf.

When the woman was caught in adultery, guilty under the law. Jesus first addressed those who would stone her. Later Jesus said to the woman “When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?” John 8:10. She said, “No man, Lord.” And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

What Jesus did on the cross is an eternal testimony to our salvation that stands in heaven before the Holy Angels (who desire to look into God’s plan of salvation for man) that God has dealt justly and righteously. That God himself took the form of frail flesh lived a sinless life and redeemed us by his own blood. The whole of scripture Old and New Testament revolves around this fact.

 

[Hentenza]

What choice am I making?

You are eating from the tree.

You are not predetermining his choice, you are making an educated guess based on the fact that there is food in one bowl and poop in the other. You will never actually know you're right until you give him the free will choice to choose a bowl.

Actually I am predetermining his choice by the choices that I am giving him. If he had chosen the poop I would have immediately removed the bowl while if he had chosen the cereal I would have allowed him to eat it. That was my plan all along, however, he still had two choices.

I was never given a choice of living in a sinless world, I was born into it. That is not free will, as I had no choice of living in a sinless or sinful world.

And yet, you have a choice to have your sins paid for but you use your 'free' will to choose to keep them.

Again I'll ask for your definition of free will.

"Free" will is choosing to eat from the bubblegum tree just because it tastes good. "Free" will is also not choosing to eat from the bubblegum tree because God asked you not to. God knows which one you will choose and yet both choices are presented to you.

 

[humblehumility]

You are eating from the tree.

I have been shown no paradise and no tree of eternal knowledge. I've been offered no fruit and given no shot at original sin.

Actually I am predetermining his choice by the choices that I am giving him. If he had chosen the poop I would have immediately removed the bowl while if he had chosen the cereal I would have allowed him to eat it.

You allowed him to choose though, you allowed him to either say "I want poop" or "I want cereal".

I don't want to eat the apple that leads to sin.

And yet, you have a choice to have your sins paid for but you use your 'free' will to choose to keep them.

That's completely beside the point. If I was given the choice to eat the fruit and chose not to, there would be no need for a savior or resurrection.

"Free" will is choosing to eat from the bubblegum tree just because it tastes good. "Free" will is also not choosing to eat from the bubblegum tree because God asked you not to. God knows which one you will choose and yet both choices are presented to you.

If God knows what I'm going to do, how am I free? He could read off his script and I would follow exactly what he says I'm going to do. I am a slave to his predetermined "plan" for my life that he has laid out with absolute certainty. I choose not to believe in that, because that is not free will.

Free will is not just being given a choice, it's being given the freedom to actually make that choice. My initial argument was that it's not fair for Adam to have a fundamental free will choice that sets up the rest of mankind for sin, failure, and the need for a bloody redemption. I would rather not eat the fruit and then not have to see Jesus (or anybody) suffer.

 

[Hentenza]

I have been shown no paradise and no tree of eternal knowledge. I've been offered no fruit and given no shot at original sin.

You have been shown. It's called the gospel of good news.

You allowed him to choose though, you allowed him to either say "I want poop" or "I want cereal".

I don't want to eat the apple that leads to sin.

If that is the case then why do you continue to choose the "poop"?

That's completely beside the point. If I was given the choice to eat the fruit and chose not to, there would be no need for a savior or resurrection.

But that is not God's plan. Are you now going to argue that God could have created us without the possibility of choosing evil?

If God knows what I'm going to do, how am I free? He could read off his script and I would follow exactly what he says I'm going to do. I am a slave to his predetermined "plan" for my life that he has laid out with absolute certainty. I choose not to believe in that, because that is not free will.

Then you can predict your future?

Free will is not just being given a choice, it's being given the freedom to actually make that choice. My initial argument was that it's not fair for Adam to have a fundamental free will choice that sets up the rest of mankind for sin, failure, and the need for a bloody redemption. I would rather not eat the fruit and then not have to see Jesus (or anybody) suffer.

The point still remains that certainly God could have created us without the ability to choose evil but then that would not have given us two choices right? Even if God knows what you are going to choose it is still your choice to choose it. For example, you have to choose between a red or a blue shirt. You choose the blue and God knows that you were going to choose the blue one. Did God make the choice for you by grabbing your hand and guiding it to the blue shirt? Or did you still have two choices and you merely chose the one that God knew that you would choose?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I have been shown no paradise and no tree of eternal knowledge. I've been offered no fruit and given no shot at original sin.



You allowed him to choose though, you allowed him to either say "I want poop" or "I want cereal".

I don't want to eat the apple that leads to sin.



That's completely beside the point. If I was given the choice to eat the fruit and chose not to, there would be no need for a savior or resurrection.



If God knows what I'm going to do, how am I free? He could read off his script and I would follow exactly what he says I'm going to do. I am a slave to his predetermined "plan" for my life that he has laid out with absolute certainty. I choose not to believe in that, because that is not free will.

Free will is not just being given a choice, it's being given the freedom to actually make that choice. My initial argument was that it's not fair for Adam to have a fundamental free will choice that sets up the rest of mankind for sin, failure, and the need for a bloody redemption. I would rather not eat the fruit and then not have to see Jesus (or anybody) suffer.

The tree was the tree of the 'knowledge' of good and evil, not the 'tree of good and evil'. We each come to the place where we take into our minds the knowledge of evil, and we incorporate that knowledge into our lives, even if unconsciously. I remember when this 'knowledge' came into my mind. I was about 4 or 5 years old. It was so overwhelming that I could never have resisted it. Eve and Adam's sin didn't 'cause' mankind to sin, but they set the pattern for what was going to happen to all of us. This pattern was designed by God, for his ultimate purpose. Eve had no chance against the serpent, and Adam had no chance against the will of Eve. Free will is our choice, at the age of accountability, whether or not to act on that knowledge. We all know how to lie, cheat, and steal: the 'knowledge of evil'. We act or refrain from acting based on free will.

 

[ElijahW]

Most of you are not really understanding the angle in which I'm asking the question from.

We all know that God says sacrifice is required for salvation, sacrifice is the truest form of love, etc. The question is why would God make sacrifice the ultimate love? Why not make the ultimate love a love for a bubblegum tree? Why must love entail killing, death, and bloody torture?

I explained the point of the sacrifice but I don't understand what would the bubblegum do to help with the problems we see in the world. How would that fix anything or save anyone?