Why Must Salvation Only Come Through Torture and Self-Sacrifice?

[Habakk]

God could give nothing that would be loss to himself as he is the creator of all things. The only thing that could cost God is for him to give his son. When God came down in the form of flesh to live as we live to be tempted as we are tempted, yet without sin that is the greatest and only cost that God could show his love for us. A miraculous bubblegum tree is still just a created thing it is not adequate for God’s purpose.

In the Old Testament the high priest went inside the tabernacle tent into the holy of holies and God entered in his shicana glory. Now Jesus is that tent where we meet with the Father. Only by being in Christ can we see the Father.

Now Jesus is our high priest and mediator with the father in every way. This is why we are commanded to come to him for salvation. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” 1 Timothy 2:5.

 

[bling]

I think some of the other responders are miss leading you and you seem to truly want to know so lets work at this together.

I have been shown no paradise and no tree of eternal knowledge. I've been offered no fruit and given no shot at original sin.

The story of Adam and Eve does not have to be real for us to get a ton of information that explains most of what you want to know.

What you are asking is what all mature adults ask sometime in their life mostly as a result of a tragedy: “How could a Loving God allow this?” What they are asking is: “why did God not put us all in a Garden of Eden type situation (no needy people, no death, no one hurting, no tragedies, and no doubts about God’s existence)?

Adam and Eve happen to be the best human representatives we could have (very good= as good as God can make, but not perfect like Christ that was not made).

God shows with the Garden where He would like us to be, but God will have to quench his desire to place us all in a Garden situation in order to place us in the best situation for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.

Do you feel you are in a much better situation than the Garden to fulfill your earthly objective?

You allowed him to choose though, you allowed him to either say "I want poop" or "I want cereal".

I don't want to eat the apple that leads to sin.

Sin is not the problem (unforgiven sin can be a huge problem).

Your objective is not to keep from ever sinning.

Sin has purpose.

The only choice you need is to accept or reject God’s help, in the form of humbly accepting God’s forgiveness (thus relieving your burden of sin) or refusing God’s free undeserving gift. Most of us will do almost anything to avoid having to accept Charity (that is what this is).

That's completely beside the point. If I was given the choice to eat the fruit and chose not to, there would be no need for a savior or resurrection.

If God knows what I'm going to do, how am I free? He could read off his script and I would follow exactly what he says I'm going to do. I am a slave to his predetermined "plan" for my life that he has laid out with absolute certainty. I choose not to believe in that, because that is not free will.

You are putting God in our time frame.

You might think about it like this: You made a free will decision to lie yesterday which God knows about today and sends that information back through a wormhole to himself a year earlier. Now God knows what decision you “did/will” make yesterday in your time frame prior to you making it, but not without you making it.

Free will is not just being given a choice, it's being given the freedom to actually make that choice. My initial argument was that it's not fair for Adam to have a fundamental free will choice that sets up the rest of mankind for sin, failure, and the need for a bloody redemption. I would rather not eat the fruit and then not have to see Jesus (or anybody) suffer.

Again understanding the objective really helps:

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4).

Since God is “Love” and part of the definition of Godly type Love is unselfishness God is totally unselfish? If God is totally unselfish, He will do and allow all He can to help those that are just willing to accept His help fulfill their objective (Love). That “all” includes: Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, evil, and even sin.

God is not trying to trying to get us to do something, but is trying to give us the most powerful force in all universes if we will just accept the gift as it was given (charity). Having Godly Love is having the most powerful force in all universes.

Will we know people do not like to accept charity especially from a giver that paid a huge price? People will try to earn the gift, pay back the gift, be more deserving of the gift than the next person or just say they got the gift without having to accept it. The easiest way to accept the gift is through accepting God’s forgiveness (this is after you have sinned) since forgiveness is charity, grace, mercy Love. AND Jesus has taught us “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

The problem is God wants us to be like He is (God’s Love is compelling Him to create beings that can Love like He Loves and made these beings for the sake of those that will accept His Love).

If we continue to refuse God’s Love and really do not want to Love unselfishly, where is there for us to go? Heaven is one huge Love feast so we would not be happy there and God wants us to be happy.


Understanding the Adam and Eve story without believing they are real people:

1. Man was made as best as man could be made to fulfill his objective and is described by God as very good. Man is not “perfect” like Christ, because he is a made being and Christ was not made. A&E become the best human “representatives” we could have. God did not mess up.

2. Man is here on earth to obtain and grow Godly type Love so he can Love God and others with all his heart, soul, mind, and energy. Christ has always had Godly type Love so He did not have to obtain it. God and Christ will do all they can to help willing individuals fulfill their objective.

3. Godly type Love is defined best by Christ’s words and deeds. It is not instinctive or that would be robotic type Love and it cannot be forced (love me or I shot) on man or that would not be man’s Love. This “Love” has to be the result of a moral decision on man’s part with likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season).

4. If A&E had obtained Godly type Love they would have obeyed “…if you Love me you will obey me…” God was Loving them with Godly Love but they did not accept that Love as it was given (unconditionally and undeserving), but would have accepted His Love as obedient Children love a wonderful Parent..

5. In the Garden before they sinned there was no reason for A&E to humble themselves enough to accept charity (a free undeserving gift). People do not like to take charity and A&E before sinning had done nothing wrong, so as extremely good children they could expect their Father to love them as any good parent would love good children and they would love a wonderful parent as any good children would love a wonderful parent. Unfortunately that is not Godly type Love.

6. The tree and satan being in the Garden, provided a way for A&E and us to see they did not have Godly type Love and were not accepting God’s Love as it was given.

7. The whole Garden situation (which we sometimes think is where a Loving God should put us all) shows A&E and all the rest of us that it is a lousy place to fulfill our objectives and points out the advantages of being where: Christ does go to the cross, satan is around, tragedies happen, heaven, hell and sin. We can thank Adam and Eve for going through this rather painful situation for all of us.

8. God did not create humans to get something from them, but to give the greatest gift He could give to them (which is also the greatest power in the universe since it compels God to do all He does). In order for this transaction of giving and receiving to take place the gift must be received by the receiver of the gift as a gift or the transaction does not take place.

9. The way this world is and all the history leading up to this world is the best arrangement for those that are or will desire and/or wanting God’s Love, to accept His Love.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is not knowing that God exists, since a very small amount of faith is needed to help humans and knowledge of there being a God would only upset those that do not want the Christian God. The problem is our fulfilling our objective.

God is doing all He can to help willing individuals fulfill their objective. That “all” includes allow Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, heaven and even sin.

 

[razeontherock]

Just a question that has been going through my mind lately.

Why -in order to be forgiven and saved- must we believe in the human sacrifice of Jesus? Why couldn't God just say to the people "Just believe in me, and you are forgiven. If you want proof, I've planted a tree that will grow infinite amounts of bubblegum and will never die. You will invent [science] but it will never be able to figure out why the tree doesn't die. It will be in a glass dome in the desert and nobody will be able to get inside. Write all of this down and pass on the word, with the tree as proof."

I guess that's a really shorthand version, but that model offers both proof of the religion and communication directly from God...and nobody has to die. We don't have to have movies like the Passion, where it's almost all blood and gore to the extreme. We would have movies about a magical bubblegum tree and how amazing the gum is.

I'm obviously being a little silly with the example, but it stays within the constraints of the Bible. God COULD make a bubblegum tree that we could never figure out.

My main argument is that the self-sacrifice thing conflicts with the "all-loving" characteristic of God, especially when there are millions of alternatives that don't need pain, suffering, torture, and murder.

Your example is quite apt! Your solution excludes the need for Faith. Have you considered G-d's own humility?

 

[razeontherock]

Most of you are not really understanding the angle in which I'm asking the question from.

We all know that God says sacrifice is required for salvation, sacrifice is the truest form of love, etc. The question is why would God make sacrifice the ultimate love? Why not make the ultimate love a love for a bubblegum tree? Why must love entail killing, death, and bloody torture?

That isn't love, but Justice:

"Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed [each other]." (Psalm 85:10)

 

[razeontherock]

If you use the little blue arrow with this quote, it will take you to post #17. You seem to have skipped over that due to how fast this thread has moved?

Here I snip out what strikes me most:

hello humblehumility,

i don't find any conflict between the "all-loving" God and the self-sacrifice.

i am talking about the conflict you mentioned.
i am not talking about why such a sacrifice would be needed from Jesus Christ and God.
this is a different topic, and although many christian doctrines give their explanation, i strongly believe that such a belief cannot be understood in a rational way. it can only be deeply understood by our souls when they have been prepared to receive it.

i think we overestimate our logical minds, and we ask that everything on this world should be explained in a logical manner.
but we have to understand that logic is only one aspect of our bodily nature. it is maybe one of the greatest aspects but it's still just one.
we need to get in touch with our soul and cultivate her, just as we cultivate earth and receive her fruits which is for our physical survival.
cultivation of our soul is for our spiritual survival.

This is wisdom; I think it deserves your attention.

 

[humblehumility]

Going back to this quote on razeontherock's suggestion, bling I'll get to your thought out response in a bit and I appreciate the time put into it.

for example, if a spouse truly loves their other half they can even give their life in order to save their beloved one. such kind of love is not very common, i think, because somehow we ended up believing that love is something like a more general emotion of happiness and joy.

If a husband gives his life to "save his spouse", I'm assuming you're talking about protecting/saving from death. It might be a car racing towards her and he steps in the way (or the other way around)...this would be an acceptable form of "sacrifice" because it is objective and an act of free will (meaning sacrifice is not required).

Jesus dying on the cross is neither objective (because he died for the sins I haven't even yet committed) or an act of free will (because God's purpose from the get-go with Jesus was to sacrifice him).

another example, a mother is ready to risk her safeness in order for her child to be safe. i remember my cousin who fears snakes badly, when she was walking with her young daughter and saw a snake, she made a step forward and covered her child to protect her, despite her own terror.

Again, the mother is choosing to protect her child from the physical harm of a snake.

if a human being and even animals can do that out of love and protection, how much more can God do for us?!

The last thing I would ask of God is that he torture and kill his own son. I do not want him to do that for me and I never would. He can pick any other way to "save" me that doesn't require torturing his child.

this is a different topic, and although many christian doctrines give their explanation, i strongly believe that such a belief cannot be understood in a rational way.

Agreed, and if I can't understand something in a rational way, I have no reason to believe it's true.

it can only be deeply understood by our souls when they have been prepared to receive it.

Precisely the point where we abandon rationality.

i think we overestimate our logical minds, and we ask that everything on this world should be explained in a logical manner.

As everything should be explained in a logical manner, that's how we discover truth: by thinking rationally and logically.

but we have to understand that logic is only one aspect of our bodily nature. it is maybe one of the greatest aspects but it's still just one.

It's the aspect that tells us what is real and what isn't, there is nothing more important than that or else we do not know if anything is real or true.

we need to get in touch with our soul and cultivate her, just as we cultivate earth and receive her fruits which is for our physical survival.

The "soul" is something theoretical and even if it is real, it is not physical. The earth, fruit, and the tools we use to harvest fruit are all physical and real.

cultivation of our soul is for our spiritual survival.

These assertions demand objective, logical, and rational evidence. Since there is none (and cannot be any), there is no reason to believe the concept of a soul or spirit is true.

 

[razeontherock]

this would be an acceptable form of "sacrifice" because it is objective and an act of free will

Jesus dying on the cross is neither objective (because he died for the sins I haven't even yet committed) or an act of free will (because God's purpose from the get-go with Jesus was to sacrifice him).

Again, the mother is choosing to protect her child from the physical harm of a snake.

And yet John 3:16 refers to exactly that scenario: saving us from physical harm by a snake. Nice analogy again! Funny that this is perhaps the most often quoted verse, yet even most believers seem not to comprehend this aspect. So then you see Jesus' passion is BOTH objective, and an act of free will according to your own definitions here. (Not that I really understand why you make these conditions, but they are met as you have defined them)

Agreed, and if I can't understand something in a rational way, I have no reason to believe it's true.

This is a common misconception by unbelievers, that can be seen all across CF. Biblical "belief" (whatever is meant by that) occurs in the heart. This is different than what you are addressing.

And yet,

Precisely the point where we abandon rationality.

No, we don't. Or some might, but we don't have to. I absolutely had to come to the Lord via cold, hard logic. And He answered more questions than I ever asked, and caused me to question more than I ever had.

As everything should be explained in a logical manner, that's how we discover truth: by thinking rationally and logically.

The Bible introduces 2 terms or categories: carnal and Spiritual. There is a Spiritual mind, and humility would accept that you are not in the best position to partake of that logic. To quote Wynton Marsalis: "the humble improve."

The "soul" is something theoretical and even if it is real, it is not physical. The earth, fruit, and the tools we use to harvest fruit are all physical and real.

True. And the soul is but one step closer to the Spirit. The people you converse with here have sacrificed quite a bit to partake of this Spirit. Language does not adequately convey it, but Jesus always spoke of it in common terms, and never separated the natural from the Spiritual.

These assertions demand objective, logical, and rational evidence. Since there is none (and cannot be any), there is no reason to believe the concept of a soul or spirit is true.

Not a very humble statement! Neither is it an effective way to explore Christianity. Countless millions through the ages have sought and found Spirituality. You come along a little late to make such a statement.

 

[drich0150]

Walking on water, turning water into wine, rising from the dead, faith healing, everlasting tree of life, everlasting bubblegum tree.

It's not out of place or out of constraints at all.

What places your bubble gum tree outside the constraints of reality is the taunt that "we" could never figure this out. There is noting in the scripture that purposely puts any of these miracles beyond the complete collective understanding of our entire race. They were were done because no one at the time could fake or reproduce these effects. There is nothing written that tells us that we would not ever be able to do, or understand what was done as some point in our collective existence.