• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why Must Atheism Be a Belief In Itself?

muichimotsu

I Spit On Perfection
May 16, 2006
6,529
1,648
38
✟106,458.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Actually many atheists are fence sitters. I say this because it comes across in their conversation which is often derogatory towards Christianity and similar belief systems that they do not believe in the notion of a God/ god. And this indicates to me that their position is similar to that of classical atheists aka the general belief that God or gods do not exist.

As Nihilist Virus brings up: you can't characterize someone as a fence sitter and then a few sentences later say they're making a statement that God doesn't exist (which isn't arguably classical atheism, which was applied as much to pagans and Christians versus any "atheists" that would've existed in classical Greece where the term originated). If you're a fence sitter, you wouldn't be taking a strong position, but taking a strong position in terms of religion being damaging is VERY different than a strong position that divine being(s) don't exist

In the late 1800s, in American their was a very influential atheist whose name I forget, but he defined atheism in much the way we see it now with the New Atheists, of skepticism or belief that there is no credible evidence for the belief in a god / God. And his definition, has been largely adopted by atheists because it is a stronger position as far as debates etc. goes.

A "stronger" position is hardly easily understood if you're talking about debates, as if just having a strong conviction means your position is more convincing to others. Skepticism and belief that there is no credible evidence are still not the same as making a definitive metaphysical statement that God does not exist, you're equivocating

But a lot of things are about posturing and burden of proof shifting. In Epistemology usually the new kid on the block has to make their case. And since atheism is the new one that would normally be the burden of proof would be with them. But by changing the terms and the definition you can try to shift that burden to the other guy. But I see this as being a bit of sophistry, because while their can be people that are true skeptics etc. it really comes across that many actually believe more in the sense of classical atheism that all religion is superstition etc. And they are basically trying to have it both ways. They claim skepticism conveniently to help them in debates, even though it is obvious that their position is much more negative than that.


No, Nihilist Virus observes correctly that the burden of proof is on the claimant to support, not the person who's skeptical of the claims, but isn't making any positive assertion themselves

If you believe religion is rational, it's on you to support that rather than those who are not convinced and are pointing out the flaws in arguments to try and support religion being rational.

Characterizing atheists as being disingenuous because you have a particular understanding (mistaken, I'd argue) of them is not the same as being able to demonstrate it consistently and point out some supposed unifying nature, rather than merely that atheists only share one aspect, not believing in God. Anti religion, etc, those are all variable aspects
 
Upvote 0

Mathetes66

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2019
1,030
862
Pacifc Northwest
✟90,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hmmm, no. We don't believe that God exists, but that doesn't mean we believe that God doesn't exist. I hope that clears it up for you.

"But yeah, this is becoming such that one may have to just ignore the poster entirely (especially when they seemingly refer to themselves as we, unless that's meant to just pull in any other Christians that agree with them in some hivemind "we")."

That is exactly what doublespeak is & why I brought it up! Thanks for confirming it. I will give examples below. And when I am called on the supposed carpet for using the 'we' pronoun in a hivemind mentality & should be ignored for such behavior & yet you do the same thing as above, what is that usually called?

Hypocrisy. Thank you once again for pointing the finger & turning around & doing the same thing & discrediting yourself. You make my case easy.

You assert in the first proposition that atheists don't BELIEVE that God exists. This contradicts the very OP: Why Must Atheism Be a Belief in Itself? because you assert in the very first proposition that belief IS part of the very definition of atheism. That is just common sense. Most anyone reading can see that.

Here is another example of breaking the law of non-contradiction at the website of: 'American Atheists.' What is Atheism? | American Atheists

In the very first paragraphs, the emphatic statement/proposition is made: "Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god NOR DOES IT ANSER ANY OTHER QUESTION ABOUT WHAT A PERSON BELIEVES. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods."

Then several paragraphs later, this is contradicted: "If you call yourself a humanist, a freethinker, a bright, or even a “cultural Catholic” & lack belief in a god, you are an atheist. Don’t shy away from the term. Embrace it. Agnostic isn’t just a “weaker” version of being an atheist. It answers a different question. ATHEISM IS ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE. Agnosticism is about what you know."

One moment the assertion is atheism is about a lack of belief. When contrasting it with agnosticism, the assertion is that atheism is about what you believe. No wonder so many people look at this contradiction as fallacious & nonsensical. In trying to make a distinction you end up in contradicting yourselves. One moment it is a 'lack of belief in gods' & yet reasonable proofs are given based on knowledge of natural science.

Anthony Flew was the one who sought to redefine the definition of atheism to what you put in your quote.

Uber Genius already pointed this out.

Antony Flew was the one responsible for changing the definition (or at least popularizing that approach to arguing for atheism), back in the early 1970s. Flew recognized that Atheism was traditionally the claim to know there was NO SUCH THING AS GOD OR GODS. By conflating the definition and recasting (equivocating) the definition he attempted to make atheism the default position. It worked! Well...somewhat. Although many philosophers saw through it as a cheap fallacious trick, the approach was taken up by none other than that New Atheist enfants terrible Richard Dawkins.

But the issue is simple to resolve. What is the knowledge claim range?

There is a God. There is NOT a G(g)od. That is it. "I don't know," is definitionally NOT a knowledge claim.

By the way Anthony Flew, before his death, wrote a book about changing from atheism to theism. It is called: "There is A (crosses out Not) God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind.'

We don't believe that God does exist.
Instead of putting it in a negation, putting in a positive proposition would be the same as: We do believe that God doesn't exist.

Louise Antony, professor of philosophy at the Univ. of Mass. at Amherst states it this way: "I don’t consider myself an agnostic; I claim to KNOW that God doesn’t exist. I say 'there is no God' with the same confidence I say “there are no ghosts...”

She is the editor of the essay collection: 'Philosophers Without Gods: Mediations on Atheism & the Secular Life.

She also directly contradicts the definitions given on the American Atheists website! As an atheist she claims I KNOW that God doesn't exist. So atheism to her is also about KNOWING not just about BELIEF or lack of.

But at least she states the obvious: there is a PRESUPPOSITION to the convoluted (and seemingly ever 'evolving' definition of atheism--global vs local vs new vs pyschological state as Flew asserts vs 'friendly' as William Row asserts vs unfriendly vs indifferent vs pro-God atheism (of John Schellenberg) & ad nauseum. This is as bad as denominationalism in theism! They group in their beliefs of what atheism is, supporting one another, defending it vociferously, etc. & yet it NO WAY IS A RELIGION. mmmm

And what is the main presupposition that underlies this whole issue of however one may define atheism (from indifferent to extreme militant activists)?

It is what Louise Antony admits: "The main issue is supernaturalism — I DENY that there are beings or phenomena OUTSIDE the scope of natural law." So by this very presupposition of denial, there can be no belief in a god by definition, it is impossible.

That is why these discussions usually go nowhere. It again comes down to: is there a God or isn't there a God/god/gods. I BELIEVE one's eternal destiny will be determined by one's believed propositions. I lose nothing if we die & there is nothing beyond that. You lose everything if there is indeed a holy God that has already put within you a knowledge that He exists & that you have suppressed it & chosen to serve the creation of the natural world instead of the Creator. We are all without excuse, in my understanding & opinion.

Then there is the one OP that did not answer much of my various examples (I had a list of 50 or more but thought that would be too many to refute the fallacious claim of 'generalizing' because listing that many non-generalizations would be too tedious. Thus I am falsely accused of cherry picking. Again laughable)

Thus the statement like below:

"More cherry picking & equivocation of the position having to be polarizing & partisan in nature, against you because you seemingly have to have someone victimizing you to claim martyrdom & being a social pariah as a Christian."

Again this isn't a conversation. The exaggerated claim of cherry picking isn't shown. Equivocation of position to be polarizing isn't shown, only a generalized claim that this is so. The claim that I have to have someone vicitimizing me is so laughable & to claim I am a social pariah as a Christian is not even worth the comment to respond. World leaders have shown by facts, statistics & detailed reports, even given at the United Nations that is it not mere victimization but murdering Christians all over the world in many countries, where it is extremely dangerous to be a professing Christian.

I posted these reports in another thread--examples of world leaders alarmed at the number of Christians being murdered & nothing is being addressed about this. They spoke up so it isn't some trivial issue. And I never claimed martyrdom: I would have to be dead to do that! That shows how ridiculous once again your assertion is. Wow.

And here is more patronizing & condescending rhetoric & ridicule.'

Nihilist: Hi there. I see that you've professed yourself to be wise. I'd like to nudge my way in here and see what becomes of this.

First of all I never said what you asserted above. Get your facts straight to begin with. I do appreciate you actually addressing specific things unlike the OP who continues to generalize without actually addressing points I said specifically. However, after your points, what could have led to the possibility of an actual discussion & been addressed point by point by myself is all but rejected when you END your post with this:

Nihilist: "I'll cut it off here because I don't know if I'm intelligent enough to merit your attention or response."

There is no discussion here, there is no dialogue with statements made like that. It is a waste of time. It is indeed time to cut one's losses. That is at least one thing we can agree on.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

muichimotsu

I Spit On Perfection
May 16, 2006
6,529
1,648
38
✟106,458.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Hypocrisy. Thank you once again for pointing the finger & turning around & doing the same thing & discrediting yourself. You make my case easy.
Yeah, because tu quoque works wonder


You assert in the first proposition that atheists don't BELIEVE that God exists. This contradicts the very OP: Why Must Atheism Be a Belief in Itself? because you assert in the very first proposition that belief IS part of the very definition of atheism. That is just common sense. Most anyone reading can see that.

A response to belief, not a belief in itself, not the same thing. Not being convinced is not the same as making a positive proposition in the slightest, it's a question of whether it's justified to even consider the belief reasonable, not making an ambitious claim itself

Here is another example of breaking the law of non-contradiction at the website of: 'American Atheists.' What is Atheism? | American Atheists

In the very first paragraphs, the emphatic statement/proposition is made: "Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god NOR DOES IT ANSER ANY OTHER QUESTION ABOUT WHAT A PERSON BELIEVES. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods."

Then several paragraphs later, this is contradicted: "If you call yourself a humanist, a freethinker, a bright, or even a “cultural Catholic” & lack belief in a god, you are an atheist. Don’t shy away from the term. Embrace it. Agnostic isn’t just a “weaker” version of being an atheist. It answers a different question. ATHEISM IS ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE. Agnosticism is about what you know."

Methinks you don't understand non contradiction: disbelief is not identical to a lack of belief, that's pretty demonstrable in the same vein as me shaving my head bald versus going bald naturally, one would be active, the other a passive aspect

Atheism isn't a belief system, you've still not remotely demonstrated anything like that with picking out stuff that fits your conclusion and ignoring anything to the contrary

One moment the assertion is atheism is about a lack of belief. When contrasting it with agnosticism, the assertion is that atheism is about what you believe. No wonder so many people look at this contradiction as fallacious & nonsensical. In trying to make a distinction you end up in contradicting yourselves. One moment it is a 'lack of belief in gods' & yet reasonable proofs are given based on knowledge of natural science.

Anthony Flew was the one who sought to redefine the definition of atheism to what you put in your quote.
Theism is making the unjustified claim, atheism is not making a claim in response, because not being convinced is not the same as being thoroughly convinced of the contrary, anymore than you not being convinced of someone saying there are leprechauns means you necessarily claim leprechauns do not exist. Or my favorite example, if God is guilty of existing, an atheist is not saying God is innocent of existing, but not guilty, which is a matter of justification of the claims, not certainty one way or the other



By the way Anthony Flew, before his death, wrote a book about changing from atheism to theism. It is called: "There is A (crosses out Not) God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind.'

Yeah, I have the book, it's not convincing unless you basically just want to have certainty on questions that are arguably out of the scale of our knowledge, merely speculative nonsense from someone who was aged to the point his mind wasn't working nearly as well as it used to (common occurrence)

Instead of putting it in a negation, putting in a positive proposition would be the same as: We do believe that God doesn't exist.

Louise Antony, professor of philosophy at the Univ. of Mass. at Amherst states it this way: "I don’t consider myself an agnostic; I claim to KNOW that God doesn’t exist. I say 'there is no God' with the same confidence I say “there are no ghosts...”

She is the editor of the essay collection: 'Philosophers Without Gods: Mediations on Atheism & the Secular Life.

She also directly contradicts the definitions given on the American Atheists website! As an atheist she claims I KNOW that God doesn't exist. So atheism to her is also about KNOWING not just about BELIEF or lack of.

Wow, atheists don't agree on phrasing of something, that doesn't follow to your later notions that it's somehow religious fervor rather than actually engaging in critical thought on something that utilizes it in response to uncritical conclusions about a deity existing. It's easy to find someone that fits whatever you characterize atheism as that agrees with your presupposition rather than looking at atheism not as some monolithic thing, but an evolving position in general, same as Christianity in its own right

But at least she states the obvious: there is a PRESUPPOSITION to the convoluted (and seemingly ever 'evolving' definition of atheism--global vs local vs new vs pyschological state as Flew asserts vs 'friendly' as William Row asserts vs unfriendly vs indifferent vs pro-God atheism (of John Schellenberg) & ad nauseum. This is as bad as denominationalism in theism! They group in their beliefs of what atheism is, supporting one another, defending it vociferously, etc. & yet it NO WAY IS A RELIGION. mmmm

And what is the main presupposition that underlies this whole issue of however one may define atheism (from indifferent to extreme militant activists)?

It is what Louise Antony admits: "The main issue is supernaturalism — I DENY that there are beings or phenomena OUTSIDE the scope of natural law." So by this very presupposition of denial, there can be no belief in a god by definition, it is impossible.

Oh no, we actually require falsifiability, evidence and valid + sound argumentation, that's such an unreasonable presupposition for cogent beliefs.

Would you rather just have an openness to any belief that feels right or would you rather belief as many true things and as few false things as possible, even if it means the former is constricted by standards that aren't rooted in sentimentality?

That is why these discussions usually go nowhere. It again comes down to: is there a God or isn't there a God/god/gods. I BELIEVE one's eternal destiny will be determined by one's believed propositions. I lose nothing if we die & there is nothing beyond that. You lose everything if there is indeed a holy God that has already put within you a knowledge that He exists & that you have suppressed it & chosen to serve the creation of the natural world instead of the Creator. We are all without excuse, in my understanding & opinion.

You can believe it, you've failed to justify or demonstrate it, to say nothing of using Pascal's wager as if your god is so incompetent it can't tell the difference between someone faking and not. Also, it makes belief little more than a choice in itself rather than actually placing the responsibility in terms of how you justify beliefs and are convinced or not (rather than the belief itself as having substance instead of being a response to claims based on epistemological standards)

Ever heard of begging the question? Or affirming the consequent? You're doing both, to say nothing of showing how little you care about truth rather than mere consequences

Then there is the one OP that did not answer much of my various examples (I had a list of 50 or more but thought that would be too many to refute the fallacious claim of 'generalizing' because listing that many non-generalizations would be too tedious. Thus I am falsely accused of cherry picking. Again laughable)

If you'd actually present it instead of picking what you need in regards to whatever preconception you have of atheism, unwilling to consider anything contrary, then you're engaging in a Texas sharpshooter fallacy or goalpost shifting, neither of which shows you're being genuine about seeking truth, just rhetoric victory


Again this isn't a conversation. The exaggerated claim of cherry picking isn't shown. Equivocation of position to be polarizing isn't shown, only a generalized claim that this is so. The claim that I have to have someone vicitimizing me is so laughable & to claim I am a social pariah as a Christian is not even worth the comment to respond. World leaders have shown by facts, statistics & detailed reports, even given at the United Nations that is it not mere victimization but murdering Christians all over the world in many countries, where it is extremely dangerous to be a professing Christian.

I posted these reports in another thread--examples of world leaders alarmed at the number of Christians being murdered & nothing is being addressed about this. They spoke up so it isn't some trivial issue. And I never claimed martyrdom: I would have to be dead to do that! That shows how ridiculous once again your assertion is. Wow.

Fine, I mistakenly used the term, I'll admit it (see, I'm not nearly as arrogant as you characterize me), but you're still taking the examples that would fit what you think are atheists if they had political power and failing to consider that these were politically motivated by what amounted to cults of personality, making the state a "god", etc, that's not somehthng innate to atheism anymore than theism, which can be just as guilty
 
Upvote 0

BigV

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2007
1,093
267
48
USA, IL
✟49,404.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
To answer your question: The Internet.

Do you believe that Atheism when it comes to a Christian God is a belief system? Or is Atheism in all of the other Gods throughout history a belief system as well?
 
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,921
1,244
Kentucky
✟64,539.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I mentioned yesterday that I would tract down Antony Flew's paper, once I got back home. Here is the quote and the refence.

"The word 'atheism', however, has in this contention to be con- strued unusually. Whereas nowadays the usual meaning of 'atheist' in English is 'someone who asserts that there is no such being as God',"

Here we see the the leading atheist of the middle-20th century properly identify the historical meaning of the term "Atheism."

So your post restates a common misrepresentation of the term atheism made by Sam Harris, Peter Boghossian, Richard Dawkins, Peter Atkins, Larry Krauss, Christopher Hitchens and others. Just about every Internet infidel site has some version of it but we see that a quick 30-second effort on Google could have eliminated this false belief.




" Iwant the word to be understood here much less positively. I want the originally Greek prefix 'a' to be read in the same way in 'atheist' as it customarily is read in such other Greco-English words as 'amoral', 'atypical', and 'asymmetrical'. In this inter- pretation an atheist becomes: not someone who positively asserts the non-existence of God; but someone who is simply not a theist. Let us, for future ready reference, introduce the labels 'positive atheism' for the former doctrine and 'negative atheism' for the latter."


cid:08116BE7-1AC2-41AD-AF58-4B3143146B7E@mobilenotes.apple.com


Presumption of Atheism
Author(s): Antony Flew
Source: Canadian Journal of Philosophy, Vol. 2, No. 1 (Sep., 1972), pp. 29-46 Published by: Canadian Journal of Philosophy
Stable URL: The Presumption of Atheism on JSTOR .
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,876
9,490
Florida
✟376,699.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Do you believe that Atheism when it comes to a Christian God is a belief system? Or is Atheism in all of the other Gods throughout history a belief system as well?

It might well be called that I suppose. The earliest Christians were charged with atheism for refusing to worship the gods of Rome.
 
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,921
1,244
Kentucky
✟64,539.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Tradition is hardly the primary or even sole factor we use to determine the definition of a term unless you're using a prescriptivist framework for linguistics

Not about linguistics or semantics it is about equivocation, let's avoid it. Secondly and most importantly if anyone applied your method of claiming their position on any knowledge issue is "the default," and therefore doesn't apply to the known rules of justification in epistemology we would laugh at them. This is absurd. It would destroy all knowledge completely, not just religious knowledge.

It seems that you are making a special pleading that religious knowledge claims are different than all other knowledge claims.

I wouldn't say atheism is the default position, but nontheism in that the latter is more a general lack of belief, while atheism is at least cogent of arguments for and against the existence of God by contrast. A child doesn't innately have God belief anymore than they innately have morals in the complex sense we'd grant around 8 or so (at baseline anyway)
child doesn't have rational beleifs about evolution or inflationary cosmology either.

Rocks are atheists. Lol.

Why keep dodging epistemic requirements for knowledge claims with these Rediculous false analogies. There are good atheistic arguments but New Atheists slogans are absurd. Read Graham Oppy or JH Sobel. And move away from the poor quality of Richard Dawkins and his ilk.

The question becomes justification rather than certainty: I may, in this simplistic notion of having to make that knowledge claim absolutely, state I don't think there is a God, but that isn't the same as claiming I'm saying it's justified to the extent someone would claim their belief God exists is, which is not subject to critical thought in contrast to me simply finding the arguments for God's existence wanting.

Not sure how "certainty" came into the discussion, all parties agree (since Descartes ), that we don't have epistemic certainty on claims other than "I exist."

So I do agree that various knowledge claims can be justified with the same arguments and at one time a person things that belief is barely warranted and later not warranted or completely warranted without changing the justification.

Now we are getting somewhere. It may be perfectly warranted to beleive as most cosmologists do, in the inflationary model developed by Alan Guth is the best explanation of our current universe even though we cannot gain any direct evidence of the theory due to event horizon limitations. Alan can innumerate half-a-dozen or so reasons then use them cummulatively to argue that his model best explains the data we have currently.

As a Buddhist, I would expect you to defend your claim that Buddha more accurately answers our religious questions: how did sentient life arise, how does one get meaning in life, how should one live morally, how do we relate to God if they exist, is God personal or impersonal, where will I go when I die.

These are religious worldview questions.
Buddhist have different answers than JudeoChristians than Hindus, than atheists,etc.

The fact that atheists can and do answer these questions demonstrates that atheism is a worldview.

Agnostic atheism as distinct from gnostic atheism, is helpful in making the nuance of the epistemological certainty and justification to a degree, because one is making teh strong claim based on certain justifications while the other is saying that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and are not making a certain claim
Extrordinary claims such as the claims of Einstein that Newton was wrong about his conception of the universe, or max planck's quantum theory, or Alan guth's inflationary cosmology, those types of extrordinary claims that waited decades or half-centuries for evidential confirmation, and longer to be added as "knowledge" in science?

Again I expect no special pleading. There is no argument that can be given raising the epistemic bar for religious belief that doesn't have the unintended consequence of destroying knowledge across all other areas of knowledge.

Further Scientism is self-refuting so one does not have the ability to backdoor special pleading that way either (not that you have argued that way).

Agnostic is just a descriptor of some level of non knowledge.

We all have 1000s of beleifs that range from fairly certain to fairly uncertain.
We don't want to lose sight of the knowledge project here. When we attempt to gain knowledge in any subject we read textbooks that argue for, and engage arguments against a knowledge claim. Early we may believe are professors, later in grad school we become inundated with the other views and other evidence and argue for or against views we held earlier, based on our own research.

"I don't know" doesn't have to be a knowledge claim to be intellectually honest in regards to the claims made regarding the existence of a transcendent being. Sometimes it's as much a matter of responding to a claim rather than making an assertion of your own

"I don't know" is definitionally, necessarily (philosophically speaking), NOT knowledge."

But your point stands! It is a great point! Here is a point worth building on.

When a theist builds an argument for God, engaging that argument with a view towards questioning facts, premises, soundness of arguments (fallacious appeals), or how good the argument is, is the proper way to engage!

One need not defend atheism to engage the theist.

I engage theists and call out bad arguments and fallacious appeals by other theist in my posts from a couple years ago entitled, "Tricks Theists Play." A call out the tricks of guys like Ray Comfort and Ken Ham (who practice the same bumper-sticker rhetorical flourishes and manipulative propagandistic approaches as the New Atheists practice).

That type of epistemic inquiry is proper. Arguments stand or fall on their own.

Similarly, the knowledge claim "There is no God."

And the claim, "I'm agnostic," need not be evaluated at all. It is a claim about one's belief. Not a knowledge claim.

To sum up:

All knowledge claims are evaluates (not assumed) using epistemic justification methods sans special pleading.

A worldview answers where we came from, how we should live our lives, how we get meaning, how do we relate to God or what was god's role in this world if God exists, what happens when I die?

Unless someone says "I don't know" to all of those questions, then they have a worldview. We don't expect all people to have fully developed worldviews. Less education means less ability to justify views but doesn't precude holding true views. Less development (12-year olds will have less capability to engage these questions than adults, babies will have no ability) mean less justification, but doesn't say anything about what is real in the world!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BigV

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2007
1,093
267
48
USA, IL
✟49,404.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It might well be called that I suppose. The earliest Christians were charged with atheism for refusing to worship the gods of Rome.

Okay then, as a fellow Atheist in Zeus, Thor and/or a milliad of other Gods/Deities, how do you go about disproving their existence?
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,876
9,490
Florida
✟376,699.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Okay then, as a fellow Atheist in Zeus, Thor and/or a milliad of other Gods/Deities, how do you go about disproving their existence?

I have a process for that. I ask ten people who Zeus is and if three or fewer guess correctly I figure if he's real more people would have heard of him.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: kybela
Upvote 0

BigV

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2007
1,093
267
48
USA, IL
✟49,404.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I have a process for that. I ask ten people who Zeus is and if three or fewer guess correctly I figure if he's real more people would have heard of him.

Ok then, using the same logic, either Zeus should have more missionaries or you should drop Christianity due to number of people never hearing about Christ (Amazon tribes, remote places in Africa, etc...)
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,876
9,490
Florida
✟376,699.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Ok then, using the same logic, either Zeus should have more missionaries or you should drop Christianity due to number of people never hearing about Christ (Amazon tribes, remote places in Africa, etc...)

If I walk up to ten people and ask who Jesus I'm a good eight or more will recognize the name. Even the founders of the United States knew who he was. They mentioned him in the constitution.
 
Upvote 0

Mathetes66

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2019
1,030
862
Pacifc Northwest
✟90,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yeah, because tu quoque works wonder.

Just because you can quote the words referring to a logical fallacy doesn't make what I did a fallacy. The hypocrisy is evident. I took you seriously. I quoted how you judged me about the use of 'we' as a beehive mentality. Yet when you do it, suddenly the shoe is on the other foot. Yet when you turn around & do the same thing, that indeed negates anything relevant you asserted.

Yeah, I have the book, it's not convincing unless you basically just want to have certainty on questions that are arguably out of the scale of our knowledge, merely speculative nonsense from someone who was aged to the point his mind wasn't working nearly as well as it used to (common occurrence)

Try again.

An article in 'The New York Times' alleged that Flew's intellect had declined due to senility & that the book was primarily the work of Varghese. Flew himself specifically denied this. He acknowledged that due to his age Roy Abraham Varghese had done most of the actual work of WRITING the book, but stated the book's content represented his views.

It was Darwin’s thoughts on the origins of life, added to recent scientific research concerning the complexity of DNA, that prompted Flew’s U-turn, not his senility.

In 2004 he stated in a 'Times' interview article: "I have been denounced by my fellow unbelievers for stupidity, betrayal, senility & everything you can think of & none of them have read a word that I have ever written."

I will add your name to the list, even though you, by your admission, did read his book, concluding it was 'merely speculative nonsense.' Thanks for sharing your opinion.

And his choosing co-author Roy Abraham Varghese, was no 'accident.' One of his books concerning his thoughts & writing ability won positive comments from two Nobel Prize winners.

A response to belief, not a belief in itself, not the same thing.

Try again. All I am doing is quoting what atheists are stating, here & elsewhere. The definition postulated didn't say it was a 'response to belief.'

Oh no, we actually require falsifiability, evidence and valid + sound argumentation, that's such an unreasonable presupposition for cogent beliefs.

You can do better than that. Try again. Now you are marginalizing Professor Louise Antony just like your comments on Antony Flew, discounting fellow atheists. I am simply showing direct quotes from distinguished atheists, that show the inconsistency, contradictions & holes in the dike. You can wave your hand & simply dismiss them, disagreeing with their statements & saying they are speculative nonsense & that I am cherry picking. I am not saying it, you all are.

Suddenly the shoe is on the other foot. Instead of you taking potshots at theists, now we show your contradictions & convoluted arguments simply by quoting over & over your own conflicting statements concerning atheism. Old school atheists criticizing the 'new' atheists in their inconsistencies. We don't have to do it. You all are doing it to yourselves.

My purpose in responding is not to win an argument or as another poster has said, 'gain some rhetorical victory.' That is shallow & hollow.

Either it is true that God exists or it is true that God does not exist. Both can't be true at the same time, whether belief or lack of belief is touted. Like I said before, if the second one is true, I have lost nothing. But if the first one is true & the second if false, then you have placed a bet on a losing horse & I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. Mercy.


Have a great day with all its new possibilities. I will let you carry on. My time is going elsewhere. One historically acknowledged wise man said this & I will leave it for you to ponder.

"Rejoice, O young man, while you are young & let your heart be glad in the days of your youth. Walk in the ways of your heart & in the sight of your eyes, but know that for all these things God will bring you to judgment. So banish sorrow from your heart & cast off pain from your body, for youth & vigor are fleeting."

"The words of the wise are like goads & the anthologies of the masters are like firmly embedded nails driven by a single Shepherd. And by these, my son, be further warned: There is no end to the making of many books & much study wearies the body. When all has been heard, the conclusion of the matter is this: Fear God & keep His commandments, because this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, along with every hidden thing, whether good or evil."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

muichimotsu

I Spit On Perfection
May 16, 2006
6,529
1,648
38
✟106,458.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
I mentioned yesterday that I would tract down Antony Flew's paper, once I got back home. Here is the quote and the refence.

"The word 'atheism', however, has in this contention to be con- strued unusually. Whereas nowadays the usual meaning of 'atheist' in English is 'someone who asserts that there is no such being as God',"

Here we see the the leading atheist of the middle-20th century properly identify the historical meaning of the term "Atheism."

So your post restates a common misrepresentation of the term atheism made by Sam Harris, Peter Boghossian, Richard Dawkins, Peter Atkins, Larry Krauss, Christopher Hitchens and others. Just about every Internet infidel site has some version of it but we see that a quick 30-second effort on Google could have eliminated this false belief.




" Iwant the word to be understood here much less positively. I want the originally Greek prefix 'a' to be read in the same way in 'atheist' as it customarily is read in such other Greco-English words as 'amoral', 'atypical', and 'asymmetrical'. In this inter- pretation an atheist becomes: not someone who positively asserts the non-existence of God; but someone who is simply not a theist. Let us, for future ready reference, introduce the labels 'positive atheism' for the former doctrine and 'negative atheism' for the latter."


cid:08116BE7-1AC2-41AD-AF58-4B3143146B7E@mobilenotes.apple.com


Presumption of Atheism
Author(s): Antony Flew
Source: Canadian Journal of Philosophy, Vol. 2, No. 1 (Sep., 1972), pp. 29-46 Published by: Canadian Journal of Philosophy
Stable URL: The Presumption of Atheism on JSTOR .


Historical/=/ vernacular, which is what Antony Flew clearly stated in saying that "nowadays" versus considering historical context and usage that varies over centuries. A particular interpretation becoming common through memesis is part of language evolving, you don't get to insist on a prescriptivist model of language because you don't like how the term has changed in usage. Criticize why the descriptivist usage is invalid for other reasons beyond how the understanding has shifted, which is out of our control, practically speaking

And it's not as if he doesn't add a qualifier I'd consider reasonable as a distinction: positive atheism as what could also be considered gnostic atheism, certainty that there is no God, a positive assertion, while negative atheism is lacking the belief, but not making an assertion, agnostic atheism

Also, Antony Flew saying anything in itself lends no more credence, that's an appeal to authority rather than considering historical context and the veracity of the argument in itself
 
Upvote 0

muichimotsu

I Spit On Perfection
May 16, 2006
6,529
1,648
38
✟106,458.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
An article in 'The New York Times' alleged that Flew's intellect had declined due to senility & that the book was primarily the work of Varghese. Flew himself specifically denied this. He acknowledged that due to his age Roy Abraham Varghese had done most of the actual work of WRITING the book, but stated the book's content represented his views.

It was Darwin’s thoughts on the origins of life, added to recent scientific research concerning the complexity of DNA, that prompted Flew’s U-turn, not his senility.

In 2004 he stated in a 'Times' interview article: "I have been denounced by my fellow unbelievers for stupidity, betrayal, senility & everything you can think of & none of them have read a word that I have ever written."

I will add your name to the list, even though you, by your admission, did read his book, concluding it was 'merely speculative nonsense.' Thanks for sharing your opinion.

And his choosing co-author Roy Abraham Varghese, was no 'accident.' One of his books concerning his thoughts & writing ability won positive comments from two Nobel Prize winners.

Yeah, because I'm sure Flew understood the science as well as he'd understand the philosophy instead of potentially making a mistake many do in conflating appearance of design with actual demonstrable design from intelligence (rather than design in the same way we observe a structure in a beehive)

Except someone getting praise from people who've won a particular prize of note does not lend credence to their argument, that's faulty reasoning


Try again. All I am doing is quoting what atheists are stating, here & elsewhere. The definition postulated didn't say it was a 'response to belief.'

Awfully convenient if you don't want to even consider that language is not reasonably approached in a prescriptivist fashion, sticking to something because some people have asserted it as such rather than descriptivist, considering context and memetic growth of language


You can do better than that. Try again. Now you are marginalizing Professor Louise Antony just like your comments on Antony Flew, discounting fellow atheists. I am simply showing direct quotes from distinguished atheists, that show the inconsistency, contradictions & holes in the dike. You can wave your hand & simply dismiss them, disagreeing with their statements & saying they are speculative nonsense & that I am cherry picking. I am not saying it, you all are.

Suddenly the shoe is on the other foot. Instead of you taking potshots at theists, now we show your contradictions & convoluted arguments simply by quoting over & over your own conflicting statements concerning atheism. Old school atheists criticizing the 'new' atheists in their inconsistencies. We don't have to do it. You all are doing it to yourselves.

Yes, because Christians totally don't do the same thing. Seems like you're trying to deflect away from the massive fragmentation that's always existed in your own camp and trying to say that atheists are no better, literally a tu quoque fallacy in delegitimizing a position by pointing out hypocrisy. No one is claiming in this discussion that atheists are innately more rational because they don't believe in God, we can disagree, we can have mistaken thinking

If you'd actually demonstrated a conflict instead of what you interpret as such based on preconceptions of what atheism ought to be with selective quoting of atheists that agree with your conclusion that it's a positive assertion, sure, but you haven't really done that

My purpose in responding is not to win an argument or as another poster has said, 'gain some rhetorical victory.' That is shallow & hollow.

Either it is true that God exists or it is true that God does not exist. Both can't be true at the same time, whether belief or lack of belief is touted. Like I said before, if the second one is true, I have lost nothing. But if the first one is true & the second if false, then you have placed a bet on a losing horse & I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. Mercy.

I'm not the one engaging in polarizing and absolutist thinking, that's you. Even if I may be making a claim that God doesn't exist, I'm not absolutely certain of it, unlike your apparent absolute confidence of the contrary. I never said they could both be true at the same time, that's insinuating a claim onto me to invalidate my position, dishonest.

Do you not see ANY problems with Pascal's wager in terms of how it cheapens faith as a supposed virtue when you can boil it down to some advantage? You realize it was game theory rooted in economics and such that led to that argument in a religious context, right? It's hardly meant to be some argument for God's existence in the slightest, only that it benefits you to believe rather than not, which is utterly self serving, anti Christian I'd even hazard
 
Upvote 0

muichimotsu

I Spit On Perfection
May 16, 2006
6,529
1,648
38
✟106,458.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
If I walk up to ten people and ask who Jesus I'm a good eight or more will recognize the name. Even the founders of the United States knew who he was. They mentioned him in the constitution.
No they didn't, they mentioned a creator, you're falsely conflating the two as if they also believed Jesus was God or that it should be exposited as such in a secular document for legal purposes
 
Upvote 0

muichimotsu

I Spit On Perfection
May 16, 2006
6,529
1,648
38
✟106,458.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Not about linguistics or semantics it is about equivocation, let's avoid it. Secondly and most importantly if anyone applied your method of claiming their position on any knowledge issue is "the default," and therefore doesn't apply to the known rules of justification in epistemology we would laugh at them. This is absurd. It would destroy all knowledge completely, not just religious knowledge.

It seems that you are making a special pleading that religious knowledge claims are different than all other knowledge claims.

Because they demonstrably are: how can one make a claim that they are otherwise when they invoke unfalsifiable ideas of divine intervention, prayer's efficacy, the existence of an entity outside time and space, etc?


child doesn't have rational beleifs about evolution or inflationary cosmology either.

Rocks are atheists. Lol.

Why keep dodging epistemic requirements for knowledge claims with these Rediculous false analogies. There are good atheistic arguments but New Atheists slogans are absurd. Read Graham Oppy or JH Sobel. And move away from the poor quality of Richard Dawkins and his ilk.
I didn't say rocks were atheists and that's a category error even if I'm talking nontheist, because rocks, similar to any inorganic matter, don't even have the capacity of sentience, let alone sapience


Not sure how "certainty" came into the discussion, all parties agree (since Descartes ), that we don't have epistemic certainty on claims other than "I exist."

So I do agree that various knowledge claims can be justified with the same arguments and at one time a person things that belief is barely warranted and later not warranted or completely warranted without changing the justification.

It's about what your standards are, I think we can agree you don't choose to believe or disbelieve, you are convinced by evidence or not


Now we are getting somewhere. It may be perfectly warranted to beleive as most cosmologists do, in the inflationary model developed by Alan Guth is the best explanation of our current universe even though we cannot gain any direct evidence of the theory due to event horizon limitations. Alan can innumerate half-a-dozen or so reasons then use them cummulatively to argue that his model best explains the data we have currently.

As a Buddhist, I would expect you to defend your claim that Buddha more accurately answers our religious questions: how did sentient life arise, how does one get meaning in life, how should one live morally, how do we relate to God if they exist, is God personal or impersonal, where will I go when I die.

Except Buddhism doesn't make appeals to authority, the arguments have merit in themselves, Gautama Buddha didn't say anything conclusive or even really concern himself with cosmology, because it wasn't really relevant to personal growth in his view and I'd agree in terms of the line of argument.

Buddha wasn't making absolute claims, that's hardly a common thread in all Buddhist thought until much later when you get cultural quirks insinuated onto the religion as it transmitted across the Southeast Asian regions. And Buddhism is hardly such that I need to consider it a religious position unless you stretch that notion to apply to any position on religious topics, which becomes ludicrous

These are religious worldview questions.
Buddhist have different answers than JudeoChristians than Hindus, than atheists,etc.

The fact that atheists can and do answer these questions demonstrates that atheism is a worldview.

No, because a worldview is more comprehensive than an answer on one thing and atheists don't universally agree on the questions that would comprise a worldview in the first place, they only share the common aspect of not believing in God: how is it I have to repeat that basic nuance constantly?


Extrordinary claims such as the claims of Einstein that Newton was wrong about his conception of the universe, or max planck's quantum theory, or Alan guth's inflationary cosmology, those types of extrordinary claims that waited decades or half-centuries for evidential confirmation, and longer to be added as "knowledge" in science?

Again I expect no special pleading. There is no argument that can be given raising the epistemic bar for religious belief that doesn't have the unintended consequence of destroying knowledge across all other areas of knowledge.

Extraordinary claims only in terms of scale, not in terms of being unable to be tested scientifically, unlike with transcendent claims



Agnostic is just a descriptor of some level of non knowledge.
I'd question if that's remotely accurate: it could be said to be aligned with general skepticism in regards to certainty on God beliefs and then you can technically apply it honestly to theists as much as atheists in that neither are making absolute claims of certainty in terms of faith or such regarding the God question

We all have 1000s of beleifs that range from fairly certain to fairly uncertain.
We don't want to lose sight of the knowledge project here. When we attempt to gain knowledge in any subject we read textbooks that argue for, and engage arguments against a knowledge claim. Early we may believe are professors, later in grad school we become inundated with the other views and other evidence and argue for or against views we held earlier, based on our own research.

Knowledge is necessarily provisional in that we don't have completion or perfection, so I'm honest in not saying I absolutely don't believe there is a God, I'm not convinced of the arguments I've heard


"I don't know" is definitionally, necessarily (philosophically speaking), NOT knowledge."
And it's intellectually honest: if I'm not convinced a God exists, that doesn't mean I'm asserting God doesn't exist, that's a leap in logic between those two positions

But your point stands! It is a great point! Here is a point worth building on.

When a theist builds an argument for God, engaging that argument with a view towards questioning facts, premises, soundness of arguments (fallacious appeals), or how good the argument is, is the proper way to engage!

One need not defend atheism to engage the theist.

I engage theists and call out bad arguments and fallacious appeals by other theist in my posts from a couple years ago entitled, "Tricks Theists Play." A call out the tricks of guys like Ray Comfort and Ken Ham (who practice the same bumper-sticker rhetorical flourishes and manipulative propagandistic approaches as the New Atheists practice).

Except theists rarely do any such thing, they're working on massive cognitive and confirmation bias to make the ideas unfalsifiable (God is outside the universe so you can't scientifically investigate it, prayer works in God's mysterious manner, so you can't test that either, etc)

Also, you'd need to substantiate the argument that New Atheism remotely is comparable to intellectually dishonest tactics Comfort and Ham do based on nothing more than bald assertions that can be found to be false by even laypeople

That type of epistemic inquiry is proper. Arguments stand or fall on their own.

Similarly, the knowledge claim "There is no God."

And the claim, "I'm agnostic," need not be evaluated at all. It is a claim about one's belief. Not a knowledge claim.

To sum up:

All knowledge claims are evaluates (not assumed) using epistemic justification methods sans special pleading.

A worldview answers where we came from, how we should live our lives, how we get meaning, how do we relate to God or what was god's role in this world if God exists, what happens when I die?

Unless someone says "I don't know" to all of those questions, then they have a worldview. We don't expect all people to have fully developed worldviews. Less education means less ability to justify views but doesn't precude holding true views. Less development (12-year olds will have less capability to engage these questions than adults, babies will have no ability) mean less justification, but doesn't say anything about what is real in the world!

A worldview in the individual sense is one meaning of the word, but most people tend to use it in the sense that it's uniform and overarching for anyone, which doesn't help discussions. We need particular qualifiers in the discussion on that term or we get nowhere

Holding true views incidentally is hollow, since lacking justification means you're intellectually lazy and just are comfortable in a view rather than wanting to use critical thinking.
 
Upvote 0

muichimotsu

I Spit On Perfection
May 16, 2006
6,529
1,648
38
✟106,458.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
I have a process for that. I ask ten people who Zeus is and if three or fewer guess correctly I figure if he's real more people would have heard of him.
And if 8/10 people know both about Zeus and Jesus, what does that tell you? A lot of this depends on where you're drawing your sample.
 
Upvote 0

Mathetes66

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2019
1,030
862
Pacifc Northwest
✟90,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
lol Tinker. Good one.

I never said they could both be true at the same time, that's insinuating a claim onto me to invalidate my position, dishonest.

I never once insinuated you were doing this. Just pointing it out.

Do you not see ANY problems with Pascal's wager in terms of how it cheapens faith as a supposed virtue when you can boil it down to some advantage? You realize it was game theory rooted in economics and such that led to that argument in a religious context, right? It's hardly meant to be some argument for God's existence in the slightest, only that it benefits you to believe rather than not, which is utterly self serving, anti Christian I'd even hazard.

Have never brought up Pascal or his wager but you keep bringing it up, trying to pull me in like a carrot on a stick. No thanks.
 
Upvote 0

muichimotsu

I Spit On Perfection
May 16, 2006
6,529
1,648
38
✟106,458.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Have never brought up Pascal or his wager but you keep bringing it up, trying to pull me in like a carrot on a stick. No thanks

Don't insult my intelligence, you're still using it even if it's through a different phrasing, "Like I said before, if the second one is true, I have lost nothing. But if the first one is true & the second if false, then you have placed a bet on a losing horse & I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. Mercy."

You're making it about the consequences of something you can't demonstrate in the first place, and your ignorance of your own argument being the phrasing of Pascal's wager does not negate it being demonstrably so in itself
 
Upvote 0