Why Mormons aren't christians.

urnotme · Dec 16, 2005

Rae said:
--Simple...he didn't. Ask any Jewish member here. The things which Christians rip out of context to retrofit to Jesus in the OT don't actually refer to him.

Of course Mormons are Christians. No one has given any objective reason to believe they are not.
Please talk about the word in question. Thanks.

I think they would qualify. There isn't a clear cut definition of what a christian is..
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/christian.html
[size=+1]What is a Christian? A Christian is a disciple, a follower of Christ, a spiritual brother or sister to others - one who strives to be like Jesus, regardless of denominational background or creedal preference.[/size]

peepnklown · Dec 16, 2005

SwordOfGod said:
At this point I pull out of this debate pleading ignorance, as I do not know Hebrew and will not give any more futile attempts at translating it.

There is nothing wrong with saying, I dont know. The only thing wrong is not trying to educate yourself when you dont know. If you want to understand the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible, Old Testament) then you will have to look into Hebrew and the History surrounding the verses. If you actually want to learn I will be willing to help.

peepnklown · Dec 16, 2005

beckysoup said:
Actually we believe in Christ, the son of God; simple as that. I don't know why you have a cow about it. Seriously, if you look into our Church doctrine and understood it, that's what we believe.

Oddly, most of the Christian who claim that Mormons are not Christians do not support their claims. I have said several times, if you want to know about the LDS church, go to the website.

SwordOfGod · Dec 16, 2005

I have been to the website actually... and it still makes me repeat what I have had to say since the beginning of this lengthy discussion, The Church of the Latter Day Saints believes that there are more than one God. The Bible says that there is only one God and no other, this in itself completely seperates the Mormon church from the Christian Church.

Proof

The book of Abraham (I know it's not in the book of mormon) talks all about the "council of the gods". You might say that since mormons are henotheistic that the Bible just focuses on one God and happens to not mention the others, however...

DEUTERONOMY 6:4 Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

DEUTERONOMY 32: 39 See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.

Isaiah 44: 6 This is what the Lord says, Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 45: 5 I am the Lord, there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
New Testament
Mark 12: 29 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.

Ah... but let us not forget the mormon teachings, so let us hear from the prophet himself...

"In the beginning the head of Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people on it...in all congregations when I have preached on the subiect of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods." Joseph Smith, History of the (Mormon) Church, Vol. 6, pp.308, 474.

Now onto the Mormon definition of the trinity, I think that the best way of putting it can only come from the prophet himself...

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it?...Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow - three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Pages 370&372)

As Joseph Smith has just said, the God of the trinity, the One of the bible (yet again, as I pointed out in the first post), is not the same as the god of the mormon church. By saying that God is not only non-triune but also not even One, how can it be claimed that mormons worship the same God as the christians. But why is this so important, why does it matter that there is only one God as compared to more? The answer is in the words of our savior Jesus Christ when He said 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me' John 14: 6. It means that His way is the only way, and if we do not even know who He is then I ask you, how can we be saved?

For those who have been paying attention, yes that was a repeated post, however I do not seem to be getting the point across, that the Mormon church does not and cannot hold the way to Christ. Also as the prophet pointed out, "I say that is a strange God anyhow - three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization.", the god's of the Mormon and Christian religions are different gods, therefore how can a Mormon call himself a christian? How can one who worships a completely different god claim to be apart of that religion?

InnerPhyre · Dec 16, 2005

beckysoup61 said:
Actually we believe in Christ, the son of God. Simple as that. I don't know why you have a cow about it. Seirously, if you look into our Church doctrine and understood it, that's what we believe.

You deny that there are other gods? You deny that Heavenly Father is a physical being who lives on/near the planet/star (according to interpretation) Kolob? You deny that Heavenly Father is Elohim and Jesus is Yahweh, meaning Elohim and Yahweh are two separate gods? That Lucifer is the half brother of Jesus Christ? You deny that mormon men seek to be found worthy to be given godly status?

Mormons, from my experience are great at not lying...instead they just gloss over what they really believe. For example if you ask what they believe about the Theotokos, they might say "We believe that she conceived and bore Jesus Christ the Son of God." What they won't tell you is that they believe she is a concubine of Heavenly Father.

If you ask then who the heck Heavenly Mother is they will give you something like "oh well...if some people want to believe in that that's up to them...but don't look over there and don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain" rather than saying "She is our spiritual mother and we sing hymns to her in church."

peepnklown · Dec 17, 2005

You must define Christianity first! So, Christians, please define Christianity and then we can discuss.

InnerPhyre · Dec 17, 2005

peepnklown said:
You must define Christianity first! So, Christians, please define Christianity and then we can discuss.

Christians are those who hold to the doctrines and beliefs set forth in the Nicene Creed. The first of which is "We believe in ONE God." Thus, mormons are excluded because they believe in many gods.

urnotme · Dec 17, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
Christians are those who hold to the doctrines and beliefs set forth in the Nicene Creed.

Those would be christians who believe in the niceann creed. If all others are excluded you have a narrow view of christianity imo. A christian is somebody who tries to follow christ. If you have to accept the nicean creed we should call it nicean-cristianity.

urnotme · Dec 17, 2005

peepnklown said:
You must define Christianity first! So, Christians, please define Christianity and then we can discuss.

Somebody who obeys the commandment in Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, and tries to live accordingly.

Rae · Dec 18, 2005

Mormons agree with the Apostles' Creed. I think that should suffice, as even this site acknowledges there are Christians who do not acknowledge the Nicene Creed.

Cassiopeia · Dec 19, 2005

This thread should have died....

SwordOfGod · Dec 19, 2005

"Those would be christians who believe in the niceann creed. If all others are excluded you have a narrow view of christianity imo. A christian is somebody who tries to follow christ. If you have to accept the nicean creed we should call it nicean-cristianity."

The Nicene creed is simply the sum of the most important points of Christianity, all of it is taken from the Bible.
Also, you don't have to agree with the Nicene Creed, it isn't scripture(for the most part), so I suppose you could change the wording if you wished. But I stress that it is a highlight of what Christ's and the Apostles opinion on Christianity was.

SwordOfGod · Dec 19, 2005

This thread should have died....

Why?

InnerPhyre · Dec 22, 2005

Rae said:
Mormons agree with the Apostles' Creed. I think that should suffice, as even this site acknowledges there are Christians who do not acknowledge the Nicene Creed.

The Apostle's Creed starts "I believe in God, the Father Almighty." Mormons agree with this. They disagree with the first portion fo the Nicene Creed, however, which starts "I believe in ONE God." Mormons believe in more than one god. You cannot be Christian and polytheist. Period.

peepnklown · Dec 23, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
Christians are those who hold to the doctrines and beliefs set forth in the Nicene Creed. The first of which is "We believe in ONE God." Thus, Mormons are excluded because they believe in many gods.

So, you believe only the people whom believe in the Nicene Creed are Christian? I find this funny since its a doctrine manufactured by men rather than the teachings of Jesus. I also find it funny when other Christians cry polytheist when they acknowledge the trinity (also a doctrine manufactured by men). Of course, when you narrow your own personal definition to exclude everyone else it makes things easier. When your definition excludes the foundation of the so-called Christ that Christianity came from its down right humorous.

I love this verse, John 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

Casiopeia said:
This thread should have died....

You are right, I am tired of people using special pleadings to discount Mormons as Christians.

arunma · Dec 23, 2005

peepnklown said:
You are right, I am tired of people using special pleadings to discount Mormons as Christians.

Why are you so eager to define our orthodoxy for us?

Cassiopeia · Dec 23, 2005

arunma said:
Why are you so eager to define our orthodoxy for us?

why are you so easy to deny what your explanations say? peepnklown is just pointing out the irony of contradictory statements.

InnerPhyre · Dec 23, 2005

peepnklown said:
You are right, I am tired of people using special pleadings to discount Mormons as Christians.

Why in heaven's name do you care? Does it bother you also when Therevada Buddhists speak against Mahayana Buddhists or when Mayahana Buddhists call Teheravadans "Hinayana" meaning "lesser vehicle?"

Cassiopeia · Dec 23, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
Why in heaven's name do you care? Does it bother you also when Therevada Buddhists speak against Mahayana Buddhists or when Mayahana Buddhists call Teheravadans "Hinayana" meaning "lesser vehicle?"

Wow...now there is an intelligent response! Stop attacking him. He cares because he does...same as you. Perhaps peepnklown is more interested in the truth as I am as well. Instead of mudslinging and breaking forum rules, perhaps we might want to show the LDS people just how Christian...real christians can be.

Mysterium_Fidei · Dec 23, 2005

I believe in the Trinity, and I'm devoted to that belief. NONETHELESS, I do not reject mormons as non-Christians. If they say they are Christians, who am I to say other wise? They understand their beliefs more than I understand them.

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