Why make that choice?

[Steezie]

I've heard many people say that being gay or transsexual is a CHOICE and this confuses me.

A close friend of mine has made the transition from male to female. She is not fully physically female yet, but mentally and psychologically she is female. She asked me to go with her to a transgender friendship gathering for moral support. Basically its a gathering of people who are transsexual, they get together and talk about thier lives, work, families, thoughts, feelings etc etc.

Now I freely admit I was not 100% comfortable there. And the actual gathering itself ranged in emotion from absolutely heart-wrenching to absolute hilarity. What really struck me was that EVERYBODDY (There were about 25-30 people there) without a single exception reported feeling being drawn towards being the opposite sex from a very young age, usually from three to five. But in all cases it was usually before the person had even really been introduced into society or before issues of gender and sexuality had even been disucussed with them.

Something else many people remarked on was other people's attitudes towards transsexuals, from the plain revulsion to the sometimes outright agression and hostility. One woman had a deformity in her cheek where someone had thrown a can of soda at her and the can had crushed part of her cheekbone. Some of the stories that people told were sad and horrifying, to think that people could act so barbarically towards annother human being makes your stomach turn. Even people who were supposed to be setting a good example for others (Policemen, bosses, pastors, doctors, etc etc).

Now I catch a lot of heat for being relatively young and engaged from my family. I would probably be accepted if I were to announce I was gay but there would be a fair number of my family who would be un-able or un-willing to accept it and anyboddy I was romantically involved with would be un-welcome at any family gatherings. I dont know what would happen if I were to announce that I was actually female but I know I probably would be un-welcome at any family gathering and most of my family would no longer speak to me or treat me as a family member.

What confuses me is why people feel that other people would actively make a choice to be that which draws so much negative attention. Being gay or transgender can draw reactions that range from strange looks to outright agression, so why CHOOSE that sort of environment?

 

[scraparcs]

Some people thrive on opposition and conflict. You can see it here in General Apologetics, General Political Discussion, etc.

Does this mean that being gay or transsexual is only a choice? Hardly. Yet if you had someone who was somewhat inclined towards both genders, one with a personality that thrives on conflict might well choose to express themselves as gay.

So far though, who knows for sure what part is nature and what part is nurture?

 

[Steezie]

Some people thrive on opposition and conflict. You can see it here in General Apologetics, General Political Discussion, etc.

There is a huge difference between verbal sparring on the internet and having full cans of soda slammed into your face.

Does this mean that being gay or transsexual is only a choice? Hardly. Yet if you had someone who was somewhat inclined towards both genders, one with a personality that thrives on conflict might well choose to express themselves as gay.

You dont seem to understand, people have things THROWN at them, obscenities written on thier homes and cars, get fired from jobs, and get physically and sexually harassed. Now I pray that you have never been and will never be physically or sexually harassed, but do you think you would do something that would actively cause you to be harassed in such a manner>

So far though, who knows for sure what part is nature and what part is nurture?

What could a parent do that would cause thier child to want to change genders? Keep in mind, of the people that I've spoken with who were transgender, ALL of them reported to have feelings of being the wrong gender at a very young age, usually under five years old.

 

[scraparcs]

There is a huge difference between verbal sparring on the internet and having full cans of soda slammed into your face.

Of course. But the fact is, most gay and transgendered people don't get full cans of soda slammed in their faces.

You dont seem to understand, people have things THROWN at them, obscenities written on thier homes and cars, get fired from jobs, and get physically and sexually harassed. Now I pray that you have never been and will never be physically or sexually harassed, but do you think you would do something that would actively cause you to be harassed in such a manner>

Many people wouldn't think of it that way. They'd think of it as struggling against an oppressive mindset or such, not against physical harm. For really, the risk of physical harm for being gay in the US, for example, is generally rather small. (Might be more risky in Mayberry than in San Francisco.) It's now news when someone beats someone up for being gay as it's pretty uncommon.

What could a parent do that would cause thier child to want to change genders? Keep in mind, of the people that I've spoken with who were transgender, ALL of them reported to have feelings of being the wrong gender at a very young age, usually under five years old.

If I knew that I'd be wealthy and famous. Apparently lots of stuff early on has big effects on our life, but the question of how remains to be seen.

 

[Steezie]

Of course. But the fact is, most gay and transgendered people don't get full cans of soda slammed in their faces.

True, but many are subject to verbal and/or physical harassment because of thier sexual orientation. Many more so than heterosexuals.

Many people wouldn't think of it that way. They'd think of it as struggling against an oppressive mindset or such, not against physical harm.

There are far less risky ways to struggle against oppressive mindsets. Ways that dont involve putting yourself at risk and being outcast by your family and possibly your friends.

For really, the risk of physical harm for being gay in the US, for example, is generally rather small. (Might be more risky in Mayberry than in San Francisco.) It's now news when someone beats someone up for being gay as it's pretty uncommon.

Many incidents of this nature go un-reported or are dismissed. One of my fiancee's friends goes to WyoTech (A college in Wyoming) and the local un-official sport is "Smear the Queer". Guys keep score of how many times they've kicked the crap out of a gay guy by scratching marks on the inside of thier belts.

If I knew that I'd be wealthy and famous. Apparently lots of stuff early on has big effects on our life, but the question of how remains to be seen.

Social status and wealth is far different than sexual orientation

 

[HaloHope]

Well speaking as someone who is both transgendered and gay here I will say that being transexual is not a choice. For me going through transition (at least until the point I could fit back into society as the right gender on the outside) was a total nightmare I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy.

Fortunately these days nobody can tell I have had a gender change and I have pieced everything back together. But during transition the abuse I got from others (from a LOT of Christians actually) and harassement I recieved on the street (and I was doing my best to be androgenous at the time to try and avoid unwanted attention) was hell. Combining abuse from others with the difficulty of going through gender reassignment made me extremely depressed, I self harmed, attempted suicide etc..

Nobody would ever CHOOSE to do that unless they had too. I had to grit my teeth and get through it if I ever wanted to be myself, ever wanted to be happy and frankly if I ever wanted to remain sane. Once your on the other side though its an amazing feeling and I was fortunate enough to have the support of my family in doing so. As my mum said to me when I told her (way back when I was 17), "To be honest with you since you were about aged 3 I kinda suspected".

I'm probably not the best person to speak to about the difficulties of being gay, as aside from a few things hear and there my sexuality has been a complete non-issue. It was a LOT easier to deal with than transition. However some people do suffer a lot for their sexuality of course.

 

[Mythunderstood]

Some people thrive on opposition and conflict. You can see it here in General Apologetics, General Political Discussion, etc.

Does this mean that being gay or transsexual is only a choice? Hardly. Yet if you had someone who was somewhat inclined towards both genders, one with a personality that thrives on conflict might well choose to express themselves as gay.

So far though, who knows for sure what part is nature and what part is nurture?

You can't be serious........?

 

[Ramona]

Lelly's a good lady, guys. I've spoken to her for long enough to think I pretty much know her opinions on the subject. Suffice it to say that mods are pretty much disallowed from "promoting" homosexuality and/or transexuality. That's one of the biggest reasons that I withdrew my mod app after 95% approval, too.

 

[chaz345]

What really struck me was that EVERYBODDY (There were about 25-30 people there) without a single exception reported feeling being drawn towards being the opposite sex from a very young age, usually from three to five. But in all cases it was usually before the person had even really been introduced into society or before issues of gender and sexuality had even been disucussed with them.

Kinda blows a hole in the oft repeated nonsense that gender roles and stereotyes are entirely a social construct, doesn't it?

 

[Mythunderstood]

Lelly's a good lady, guys. I've spoken to her for long enough to think I pretty much know her opinions on the subject. Suffice it to say that mods are pretty much disallowed from "promoting" homosexuality and/or transexuality. That's one of the biggest reasons that I withdrew my mod app after 95% approval, too.

I think there is big difference between "promoting homosexuality" (whatever that means) and saying that they choose it because they "thrive on opposition and conflict." This is just way out in left field.

How does one "promote" homosexuality anyway? Is your sexual attraction to the opposite sex suddenly going to change because someone says that homosexuality is not a choice, but is how some people are born? I don't get it.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I'm more than happy to accept that one's sexual orientation is the result of a range of contributing factors... genetics, prenatal environment, post natal environment, and the result of inter personal contact during formative years... all that and more, probably, and thats fine.

However I am yet to see ANYWHERE, even one, remote, lonely shred of evidence to suggest that free choice has even the barest, slightest impact on one's sexual orientation

 

[Ramona]

How does one "promote" homosexuality anyway? Is your sexual attraction to the opposite sex suddenly going to change because someone says that homosexuality is not a choice, but is how some people are born? I don't get it.

No idea, man. Before the reforms, promoting meant "supporting" or often "not condemning."

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Of course. But the fact is, most gay and transgendered people don't get full cans of soda slammed in their faces.

Because most of us have learned to never, ever, ever be ourselves in public outside of a handful of small communities.

If fear of reprisal was not at the heart of many decisions made by GLBT people, most of us would be dead.

 

[Futuwwa]

What's meant by it is (I think) not that the alignment itself is a choice, but that acting according to that alignment is very much a deliberate choice.

 

[Ramona]

Mythunderstood ,

I actually did, in fact, try to find out the official answer to that question here: http://www.christianforums.com/t5379986-double-standards-and-same-gender-love.html

Notice how Christ-like some of those Christians were.