WHY ISREAL IS NOT PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST .

[Guojing]

What does this verse mean to you?

12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."

Please break it down step by step, in baby steps; so that I can understand what you understand.

I prefer the KJV if you are fine

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

That

1. in time past
2. us gentiles
3. were without Christ, being aliens from the nation of Israel.
4. We as gentiles do not have the same covenants that Israel had,
5. thus we have no hope
6. no God in the world.

Isn't a literal interpretation wonderful? =)

 

[HARK!]

Isn't a literal interpretation wonderful? =)

I do prefer a literal translation.


12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."

in time past

I agree. Past tense.

us gentiles

This letter was written to Paul's disciples who were Ephesians.

Paul said in verse 1 that they weren't Gentiles anymore.

11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations (Gentiles) in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

We're reading someone else's mail; and we don't have the advantage of knowing exactly what Paul was responding to. We don't have a letter from the Ephesians.

were without Christ, being aliens from the nation of Israel.

These two seem to be tied together. Those without Messiah, cannot be citizens of Israel. but now that these Ephesians have Messiah; they are citizens of Israel.

We as gentiles do not have the same covenants that Israel had,

"guests of the promise covenants" What are these promise covenants? I suspect that the covenant with Noah might be one. If I was wealthy; and my wife pleaded with me to care for her wicked parents; I doubt that I would continue to care for them if my wife rebelled and left me.

YHWH had regrets that he had created man. He was about to destroy them all. If it wasn't for Noah; all would have been destroyed. If it were not for the righteous; do you believe that the wicked would be spared?

thus we have no hope

Those without Yahshua have no hope.

no God in the world.

YHWH was in the world. YHWH is not with those who don't have Yahshua. To reject the son is to reject the father.

 

[Guojing]

I do prefer a literal translation.


12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."




I agree. Past tense.



This letter was written to Paul's disciples who were Ephesians.

Paul said in verse 1 that they weren't Gentiles anymore.

11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations (Gentiles) in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

We're reading someone else's mail; and we don't have the advantage of knowing exactly what Paul was responding to. We don't have a letter from the Ephesians.



These two seem to be tied together. Those without Messiah, cannot be citizens of Israel. but now that these Ephesians have Messiah; they are citizens of Israel.



"guests of the promise covenants" What are these promise covenants? I suspect that the covenant with Noah might be one. If I was wealthy; and my wife pleaded with me to care for her wicked parents; I doubt that I would continue to care for them if my wife rebelled and left me.

YHWH had regrets that he had created man. He was about to destroy them all. If it wasn't for Noah; all would have been destroyed. If it were not for the righteous; do you believe that the wicked would be spared?



Those without Yahshua have no hope.



YHWH was in the world. YHWH is not with those who don't have Yahshua. To reject the son is to reject the father.

So you agree with my understanding of vs 12, as requested? Which part do you disagree?

 

[Guojing]

These two seem to be tied together. Those without Messiah, cannot be citizens of Israel. but now that these Ephesians have Messiah; they are citizens of Israel.

This is where the KJV is clearer than whatever version you are using.

We are "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel", meaning because Christ was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24), a verse that you are very familiar with since you often use it, we gentiles, being alien from Israel, are naturally excluded from his earthly ministry.

To put it in another way, in time past, gentiles were excluded from Christ's earthly ministry because they are not citizens of Israel. You are reversing the causality with your "Those without Messiah, cannot be citizens of Israel"

That does not allow you to conclude that, since we are now in the Body of Christ, we therefore become "citizens of Israel".

Again, because you cannot seem to accept that the Body of Christ could be a new creation, a mystery that is hidden in God (Ephesians 3:9), you thus cannot avoid but make links like that.

 

[readywriter]

And how are Jews being saved today in the AGE OF GRACE ?
I say that there are NO GENTILES or Jews in the BODY OF Christ and Gal 3:28 proves it .
And how are Jews being saved today in the AGE OF GRACE ?
I say that there are NO GENTILES or Jews in the BODY OF Christ and Gal 3:28 proves it

dan p

'There is neither Jew nor Greek,
there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female:
for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.'
(Gal 3:28)

Hello @Dan Perez,

The letter to the Galatians was written prior to the revelation given by God to Paul concerning the Church which is His Body. It is therefore, though profitable and informative to us, is not about the Church which is the Body of Christ.

It is true that 'in Christ Jesus' there is neither bond nor free, male or female, for all are ONE in Christ Jesus. There are therefore no distinctions made regarding nationality or gender, all are One in Christ.

All who come to Christ for salvation, through faith in the efficacy of the sacrifice that He paid for them, when He died and rose again from the dead, and ascended to God's right hand; are saved by God's grace. Their faith is counted unto them for righteousness, and they receive the promise of life, resurrection life, through His Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[readywriter]

That theology doesn't exist in
the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven
for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

Hello @Ligurian,

Of course it doesn't: for the truth concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ, was not divinely revealed to Paul until the end of the period covered by the book of the Acts of the Apostles.

The Jew has a wonderful inheritance which will be enjoyed upon the New Earth, whereas the Church which is the Body of Christ has an inheritance which is vastly different, both in substance and sphere, being enjoyed in Heavenly places, in Christ Jesus. There is also another inheritance which will be enjoyed by those who comprise the Bride of the Lamb who will inhabit the New Jerusalem. All wonderful, within their separate spheres of blessing, and equally important in the purpose of God, in Christ Jesus.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Dan Perez]

'There is neither Jew nor Greek,
there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female:
for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.'
(Gal 3:28)

Hello @Dan Perez,

The letter to the Galatians was written prior to the revelation given by God to Paul concerning the Church which is His Body. It is therefore, though profitable and informative to us, is not about the Church which is the Body of Christ.

It is true that 'in Christ Jesus' there is neither bond nor free, male or female, for all are ONE in Christ Jesus. There are therefore no distinctions made regarding nationality or gender, all are One in Christ.

All who come to Christ for salvation, through faith in the efficacy of the sacrifice that He paid for them, when He died and rose again from the dead, and ascended to God's right hand; are saved by God's grace. Their faith is counted unto them for righteousness, and they receive the promise of life, resurrection life, through His Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

And it seem that you are excluding Galatians from being to the B O C , is that what you are saying ?

All should also know that Col 3:11 is a duplicate of Gal 3:28 , and Colossian also not accepted ?

dan p

dan p

 

[readywriter]

And it seem that you are excluding Galatians from being to the B O C , is that what you are saying ?

All should also know that Col 3:11 is a duplicate of Gal 3:28 , and Colossian also not accepted ?

dan p

Hello @Dan Perez,

The truth concerning the Mystery, revealed to Paul: and made known to all who visited him in prison; and through such epistles as Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, 2 Timothy and Titus, written following that revelation of God: would have permeated through to all the congregations throughout the then Christian world surely. Including the assembly in Galatia. Yet we know that Paul said to Timothy, in his last epistle, that all in Asia had turned away from him (2 Timothy 1:15).

So his later ministry appears to have been rejected. Possibly because it was unsearchable, the unsearchable riches of Christ (Ephesians 3:8 ). No more could his listeners be given Old Testament references to back his words, for what he now had to preach was not the subject of the Old Testament Prophets, or his previous epistles, for it had been 'hid in God' until made known to Paul, to administer, from his imprisonment in Rome.

In order to stand for the Truth concerning the Church of the One Body, and the Mystery that it encapsulates, as with every Truth, you have to know what it is: and so few have entered in to it's fulness and acknowledged Christ as it's Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Dan Perez]

Hello @Dan Perez,

The truth concerning the Mystery, revealed to Paul: and made known to all who visited him in prison; and through such epistles as Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, 2 Timothy and Titus, written following that revelation of God: would have permeated through to all the congregations throughout the then Christian world surely. Including the assembly in Galatia. Yet we know that Paul said to Timothy, in his last epistle, that all in Asia had turned away from him (2 Timothy 1:15).

So his later ministry appears to have been rejected. Possibly because it was unsearchable, the unsearchable riches of Christ (Ephesians 3:8 ). No more could his listeners be given Old Testament references to back his words, for what he now had to preach was not the subject of the Old Testament Prophets, or his previous epistles, for it had been 'hid in God' until made known to Paul, to administer, from his imprisonment in Rome.

In order to stand for the Truth concerning the Church of the One Body, and the Mystery that it encapsulates, as with every Truth, you have to know what it is: and so few have entered in to it's fulness and acknowledged Christ as it's Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi and just asking , if you except Romans , 1 and 2 Corinthians ,Galatians part of the Mystery given to Paul ?

dan p

 

[Ligurian]

the Church which is the Body of Christ, was not divinely revealed to Paul until the end of the period covered by the book of the Acts

Ιησους said "I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel."(Matt.15:24)
=
Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
=
Matthew 4:12-23 Now when Ιησους had heard that John was cast into prison He departed into Galilee.[13] And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:[14] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying:[15] The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea beyond Jordan, Galilee of the nations:[16] The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.[17] From that time Ιησους began to preach and to say: Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. ...23 And Ιησους went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
=
Isaiah 52:3-7 For thus saith the Lord, Ye have been sold for nought; and ye shall not be ransomed with silver.[4] Thus saith the Lord, My people went down before to Egypt to sojourn there; and were carried away forcibly to the Assyrians.[5] And now why are ye here? Thus saith the Lord, Because My people was taken for nothing, wonder ye and howl. Thus saith the Lord, On account of you My name is continually blasphemed among the Gentiles.[6] Therefore shall My people know My name in that day, for I am He that speaks: I am present,[7] as a season of beauty upon the mountains, as the feet of one preaching glad tidings of peace, as one preaching good news: for I will publish thy salvation, saying, O Sion, thy God shall reign.LXX (Gospel = good news, Kingdom of Heaven = Reign of God)
=
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him.[19] And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX
=
John 17:6-8 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me and they have kept Thy word.[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.[8] For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Yes I can, but it comes back to defining terms.

Consider the verse in Romans 9

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel

This verse presents 2 Israel's.

The first Israel is the Israel of faith. (the elect, both Jew and Gentile)

The second Israel is the Israel by descendancy. (Jews by virtue of physical blood line)

So the apparent contradiction you present is resolved when one defines terms first.

^^^^THis

 

[Ligurian]

Yes I can, but it comes back to defining terms.

Why Jacob became Israel

Genesis 32:26-28 ...I will not let Thee go, except Thou bless me.[27] And He said to him, What is thy name? and he answered, Jacob.[28] And He said to him, Thy name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: for thou grew in strength with God, and shalt be mighty with men.LXX

Genesis 28:10-14 And Jacob went forth from the well of the oath, and departed into Charrhan,[11] and came to a certain place and slept there for the sun had gone down; and he took one of the stones of the place and put it at his head and lay down to sleep in that place[12] and dreamed, and behold a ladder fixed on the earth whose top reached to heaven, and the angels of God ascended and descended on it.[13] And the Lord stood upon it, and said, I am the God of thy father Abraam and the God of Isaac: fear not, the land on which thou liest, to thee will I give it and to thy seed.[14] And thy seed shall be as the sand of the earth: and it shall spread abroad to the sea and the south and the north and to the east, and in thee and in thy seed shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed.LXX

 

[Guojing]

Hi and just asking , if you except Romans , 1 and 2 Corinthians ,Galatians part of the Mystery given to Paul ?

dan p

I believe he is an acts 28 dispy

 

[readywriter]

Ιησους said "I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel."(Matt.15:24)
=
Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
=
Matthew 4:12-23 Now when Ιησους had heard that John was cast into prison He departed into Galilee.[13] And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:[14] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying:[15] The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea beyond Jordan, Galilee of the nations:[16] The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.[17] From that time Ιησους began to preach and to say: Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. ...23 And Ιησους went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
=
Isaiah 52:3-7 For thus saith the Lord, Ye have been sold for nought; and ye shall not be ransomed with silver.[4] Thus saith the Lord, My people went down before to Egypt to sojourn there; and were carried away forcibly to the Assyrians.[5] And now why are ye here? Thus saith the Lord, Because My people was taken for nothing, wonder ye and howl. Thus saith the Lord, On account of you My name is continually blasphemed among the Gentiles.[6] Therefore shall My people know My name in that day, for I am He that speaks: I am present,[7] as a season of beauty upon the mountains, as the feet of one preaching glad tidings of peace, as one preaching good news: for I will publish thy salvation, saying, O Sion, thy God shall reign.LXX (Gospel = good news, Kingdom of Heaven = Reign of God)
=
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him.[19] And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX
=
John 17:6-8 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me and they have kept Thy word.[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.[8] For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.

Hello @Ligurian,

I understand the ministry of our Lord, and why He came, but, why are you giving verses to confirm that, when that is not in doubt, nor is it the subject of the thread? Please help me to understand your reason for using it here in relation to the subject under discussion?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[readywriter]

Hi and just asking, if you accept Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians as part of the Mystery given to Paul?

dan p

Hello @Dan Perez,

As the revelation of God given to Paul concerning the Church which is His Body was not given until the earlier epistles had been written: Only the letters to the Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon could have contained anything pertaining to the fellowship of the Mystery.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Carl Emerson]

^^^^THis

I am not sure what you mean...

 

[Ligurian]

the truth concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ, was not divinely revealed to Paul until the end of the period covered by the book of the Acts

Ιησους said "I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel."(Matt.15:24)=
Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.=
Matthew 4:12-23 Now when Ιησους had heard that John was cast into prison He departed into Galilee.[13] And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:[14] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying:[15] The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea beyond Jordan, Galilee of the nations:[16] The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.[17] From that time Ιησους began to preach and to say: Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. ...23 And Ιησους went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
=
Isaiah 52:3-7 For thus saith the Lord, Ye have been sold for nought; and ye shall not be ransomed with silver.[4] Thus saith the Lord, My people went down before to Egypt to sojourn there; and were carried away forcibly to the Assyrians.[5] And now why are ye here? Thus saith the Lord, Because My people was taken for nothing, wonder ye and howl. Thus saith the Lord, On account of you My name is continually blasphemed among the Gentiles.[6] Therefore shall My people know My name in that day, for I am He that speaks: I am present,[7] as a season of beauty upon the mountains, as the feet of one preaching glad tidings of peace, as one preaching good news: for I will publish thy salvation, saying, O Sion, thy God shall reign.LXX (Gospel = good news, Kingdom of Heaven = Reign of God)
=
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him.[19] And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX
=
John 17:6-8 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me and they have kept Thy word.[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.[8] For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.

I understand the ministry of our Lord, and why He came, but, why are you giving verses to confirm that, when that is not in doubt

Those verses may be understood by you. And then again, maybe not. Because you don't even seem to know that Solomon's kingdom is still divided... which seemed obvious when you attempted to move the whole 12 tribes to the back of the book.

But in fact, several prophecies were fulfilled in Galilee for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, including the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom for those led captive by Assyria... which is the House of Israel, period. And since this event took place well before Paul's gospel to the gentiles... well, Fulfilled Prophecy is what it is.

And, since
some people tend to grab verses not even said to the gentiles and act like everything in the New Testament is a-gentile-theology-en-masse,
my purpose has always been to make clear the audience to whom the Gospel of the Kingdom verses were spoken... and so, I guard the word.

 

[readywriter]

Those verses may be understood by you. And then again, maybe not. Because you don't even seem to know that Solomon's kingdom is still divided... which seemed obvious when you attempted to move the whole 12 tribes to the back of the book.

But in fact, several prophecies were fulfilled in Galilee for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, including the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom for those led captive by Assyria... which is the House of Israel, period. And since this event took place well before Paul's gospel to the gentiles... well, Fulfilled Prophecy is what it is.

And, since
some people tend to grab verses not even said to the gentiles and act like everything in the New Testament is a-gentile-theology-en-masse,
my purpose has always been to make clear the audience to whom the Gospel of the Kingdom verses were spoken... and so, I guard the word.

Hello @Ligurian,

Thank you for responding.

I understand.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I am not sure what you mean...

I was agreeing with your post. My like function seems to be disabled?

 

[Guojing]

Yes I can, but it comes back to defining terms.

Consider the verse in Romans 9

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel

This verse presents 2 Israel's.

The first Israel is the Israel of faith. (the elect, both Jew and Gentile)

The second Israel is the Israel by descendancy. (Jews by virtue of physical blood line)

So the apparent contradiction you present is resolved when one defines terms first.

What if another define in the following way instead

True Israel refers to those from Israel who believe Jesus as their messiah

The other Israel refers to those from Israel who reject Christ as their messiah.

Would that work as well?