WHY ISREAL IS NOT PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST .

[Carl Emerson]

There is nothing in that verse that allows you to conclude that "The Apostles Represent the Body of Christ - now the very foundation of the New Jerusalem".

As I said, you cannot anyhow insert the BOC into passages as and when it is convenient for you.

Let other readers comment as to if the twelve apostles represent twelve tribes or the Body of Christ.

Given that some of the apostles were relatives it is impossible for them to each represent a different tribe by blood.

All I am doing is quoting Scripture and the Apostles are clearly singled out by God to have the honour of being foundational to the New Jerusalem. Rev 21:14.

As the Body of Christ is founded on the Apostles and Prophets I would expect nothing else.

 

[Guojing]

Let other readers comment as to if the twelve apostles represent twelve tribes or the Body of Christ.

Given that some of the apostles were relatives it is impossible for them to each represent a different tribe by blood.

All I am doing is quoting Scripture and the Apostles are clearly singled out by God to have the honour of being foundational to the New Jerusalem. Rev 21:14.

As the Body of Christ is founded on the Apostles and Prophets I would expect nothing else.

You have Jesus clearly promising the 12 in Matthew 19:28

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Why is that not enough for you to conclude that "the twelve apostles represent twelve tribes"?

Is this promise still valid to you?

 

[Carl Emerson]

You have Jesus clearly promising the 12 in Matthew 19:28

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Why is that not enough for you to conclude that "the twelve apostles represent twelve tribes"?

Is this promise still valid to you?

Because what is clear is that the Apostles collectively will Judge the twelve tribes but we cant assume each is allocated one tribe.

 

[Guojing]

Because what is clear is that the Apostles collectively will Judge the twelve tribes but we cant assume each is allocated one tribe.

Even if that is true, how can you insert the term "Body of Christ" into any of those passages, as and when you feel like it?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are the Apostles foundational to the Body of Christ and the New Jerusalem or not ???

Rev 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Eph 2:19
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

 

[Guojing]

Are the Apostles foundational to the Body of Christ and the New Jerusalem or not ???

Rev 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Eph 2:19
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

The answer is no.

As you said, the New Jerusalem is on Earth, where the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles are judging them.

The Body of Christ, our destiny is in the heavens.

Its unfortunate that you don't even believe that earlier post you made about this same distinction, that I replied to.

 

[Marumorose]

Israel will never be part of the BODY of CHRIST , because Gal 3:28 says that they can not .

Anyone who says they are , just present evidence and verses , that they are !!

Happy to have a dialogue ,

dan p

What do you mean Israel is never part of the Body of Christ. What does the name Israel in the bible mean to you?
May God Bless You

 

[Dan Perez]

What do you mean Israel is never part of the Body of Christ. What does the name Israel in the bible mean to you?
May God Bless You

In 2 Cor 3:14 Israel and Judah THOUHTS were Hardened , For UNTIL THIS DAY at the reading of the Old Covenant the same covering remains , not being UNCOVERED which is being ALOLISHED by Christ .

verse 15 , says , Until this day , when Moses is read , a COVERING lies upon their HEART .

dan p

 

[Ligurian]

Solomon's Kingdom is still divided, therefore:

The Jews are the House of Judah including Benjamin+Levi: the Kingdom of Judah in the Iron age.

The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel are the 10-Lost-Tribes: the Kingdom of Israel in the iron age.

These are very separate designations, according to the Prophets.

Isaiah 11:12 And He shall lift up a standard for the nations, and He shall gather the (απολομένους) lost ones of Israel, and He shall gather the (διεσπαρμένους) dispersed of Juda from the four corners of the earth.


This was written just before the Assyrian captivity:

Hosea 1:6-10 And she conceived again, and bore a daughter. And he said to him, Call her name, Unpitied: for I will no more have mercy on the House of Israel, but will surely set Myself in array against them.[7] But I will have mercy on the house of Juda…[8] And she weaned Unpitied; and she conceived again, and bore a son.[9] And He said, Call his name, not My people: for ye are not My people, and I am not your God.[10]... and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, Ye are not My people, even they shall be called the sons of the living God.LXX
Hosea 2:1-23 [16] And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord, that she shall call Me, My husband (ανήρ), and shall no longer call me Baalim.[23]And I will sow her to Me on the Earth, and will love her that was not loved: and will say to that which was not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art the Lord My God."LXX (Jeremiah 3:8, the House of Israel's bill of divorcement)

Jeremiah 31:18-20 I have heard the sound of Ephraim lamenting, and saying, Thou hast chastened me and I was chastened. I as a calf was not willingly taught: turn Thou me and I shall turn, for Thou art the Lord my God.[19] For after my captivity I repented, and after I knew I groaned for the day of shame, and shewed Thee that I bore reproach from my youth.[20] Ephraim is a beloved son, a pleasing child to me, for because My words are in him I will surely remember him. Therefore I made haste to help him, I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.LXX

____________________________
The good news of the Reign of God (Gospel of the Kingdom)

Prophecied:

Isaiah 52:3-7 For thus saith the Lord, Ye have been sold for nought; and ye shall not be ransomed with silver.[4] Thus saith the Lord, My people went down before to Egypt to sojourn there; and were carried away forcibly to the Assyrians.
[5] And now why are ye here? Thus saith the Lord, Because My people was taken for nothing, wonder ye and howl. Thus saith the Lord, On account of you My name is continually blasphemed among the Gentiles.
[6] Therefore shall My people know My name in that day, for I am He that speaks: I am present,[7] as a season of beauty upon the mountains, as the feet of one preaching glad tidings of peace, as one preaching good news: for I will publish thy salvation, saying, O Sion, thy God shall reign.LXX

Fulfilled:

Matthew 10:5-7 [5] These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

The New Covenant was made with both the House of Israel and with the House of Judah in the passage below. The author of the Book of Hebrews quotes Jer. 31:31-34 word for word and starts the passage with the word "now" in verse 6.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
[...]
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
.

It wasn't God's Covenant that was at fault... the whitewashed tombs are to blame. Cleaning the outside of the pot is only impressive to those who don't live with you on a daily basis.

So, Jeremiah's New Covenant cleans from the inside out: Judges the heart before the actions they inspire cause harm, Matthew 5:27-28, etc.


But Paul's new covenant... is explained in Romans 7:1-25.

 

[Dan Perez]

It wasn't God's Covenant that was at fault... the whitewashed tombs are to blame. Cleaning the outside of the pot is only impressive to those who don't live with you on a daily basis.

So, Jeremiah's New Covenant cleans from the inside out: Judges the heart before the actions they inspire cause harm, Matthew 5:27-28, etc.


But Paul's new covenant... is explained in Romans 7:1-25.

It is the first time that I have seen that a human , could be the author of a COVENANT .

Please explain Rom 7:2 and is the MARRIED woman Israel and Judah ?

In the same verse it says that , that husband dies , and I say that , that husband was Christ !!

And , SHE has been released from the LAW of her HUSBAND .

We know from Jer 3:14 that Christ was MARRIED , Christ was killed by his own people .

Christ will again be united to Israel and Judah and make them ONE STICK in Eze 37:19 .

dan p

 

[parousia70]

Israel has so many juicy physical blessings, promises of heath and financial prosperity.
Since we in the flesh are naturally drawn towards those, it is naturally difficult to believe that we in the Body of Christ are not Israel of some sort.

Rather, What's difficult to believe is that those of Israel who repent and believe today somehow get stripped of their physical inheritance in the Nation, simply because they obeyed and followed Israel's reigning King, Jesus Christ, while those who continue to disobey and Reject Israel's King, Somehow secure their National Inheritance in those "juicy physical blessings" by steadfastly remaining in their present day disobedience and rejection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Dan Perez]

It is the first time that I have seen that a human , could be the author of a COVENANT .

Please explain Rom 7:2 and is the MARRIED woman Israel and Judah ?

In the same verse it says that , that husband dies , and I say that , that husband was Christ !!

And , SHE has been released from the LAW of her HUSBAND .

We know from Jer 3:14 that Christ was MARRIED , Christ was killed by his own people .

Christ will again be united to Israel and Judah and make them ONE STICK in Eze 37:19 .

dan p

And I hope that you will explain Rom 7:2 and clear the AIR , please ?

dan p

 

[Guojing]

Rather, What's difficult to believe is that those of Israel who repent and believe today somehow get stripped of their physical inheritance in the Nation, simply because they obeyed and followed Israel's reigning King, Jesus Christ, while those who continue to disobey and Reject Israel's King, Somehow secure their National Inheritance in those "juicy physical blessings" by steadfastly remaining in their present day disobedience and rejection of Jesus Christ.

There is no one "of Israel" today, so your starting premise is already incorrect.

 

[BABerean2]

Christ will again be united to Israel and Judah and make them ONE STICK in Eze 37:19 .

You are ignoring the fulfillment of the New Covenant below, which unites both the house of Israel and the House of Judah back together under the blood of Christ. The OT text of Jer. 31:31-34 is quoted word for word in Uppercase letters in the NKJV below.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


.

 

[Dan Perez]

You are ignoring the fulfillment of the New Covenant below, which unites both the house of Israel and the House of Judah back together under the blood of Christ. The OT text of Jer. 31:31-34 is quoted word for word in Uppercase letters in the NKJV below.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming 96obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


.

It is easy to explain !!

#1 Is Christ dealing with Israel at this very moment TODAY ? NO !! Because Israel is still in a STATE of STUPOR , until this DAY !!

#2 Are the JEWS preaching to all NATIONS , TODAY ? NO !! Marr 28:19 ?

#3 Is Mark 16:16-18 being SEEN today ? Anyone seen it YET ?? NO !!

#4 Is Israel and THE HOUSE of Israel ONE NATION , TODAY as written in Eze 37:19 ? NO !!
#5 Are all male JEWS yet a KINGS and PRIESTS as written in Rev 1:16 and in Ex 19:6 ?

No !!

#6 Because Christ has not yet come to save Israel !! Rom 11:26 !!

#7 Because Israel is NOT yet in the LAND that was promised them .

#8 Because the NEW COVENANT is Not yet here !!

#9 The TEMPLE not here yet !!

#10 There are to be the 12 apostles sitting on 12 thrones judging Israel ?

#11 The world has yet to see Christ coming to save Israel Rom 11:26 !!

Just a few !!

dan p

 

[BABerean2]

It is easy to explain !!

#1 Is Christ dealing with Israel at this very moment TODAY ? NO !! Because Israel is still in a STATE of SSTUPOR , until this DAY !!

#2 Are the JEWS preaching to all NATIONS , TODAY ? NO !! Marr 28:19 ?

#3 Is Mark 16:16-18 being SEEN today ? Anyone seen it YET ?? NO !!

#4 Is Israel and THE HOUSE of Israel ONE NATION , TODAY as written in Eze 37:19 ? NO !!
#5 Are all male JEWS yet a KINGS and PRIESTS as written in Rev 1:16 and in Ex 19:6 ?

No !!

#6 Because Christ has not yet come to save Israel !! Rom 11:26 !!

#7 Because Israel is NOT yet in the LAND that was promised them .

#8 Because the NEW COVENANT is Not yet here !!

#9 The TEMPLE not here yet !!

#10 There are to be the 12 apostles sitting on 12 thrones judging Israel ?

#11 The world has yet to see Christ coming to save Israel Rom 11:26 !!

Just a few !!

dan p

Romans Chapter 11:

In Romans 1:16 Paul said the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews. This time period can be found in Matt. 10:5-7, and Acts 10:36-38, and Gal. 1:14-18. Many try to claim God never gave the Jews a chance to accept Christ, so there must be some Plan B of salvation before or during the Second Coming of Christ. Romans 1:16 proves they are wrong, since Paul said the Gospel went "first" to the Jews. Many ignore the fact that Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", and as "men of Israel", and as "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. The Gentiles were not grafted in until several years later. This passage proves Paul was right about the Gospel being taken "first" to the Jews.


Paul reveals two different groups of Israelites in Romans 9:6-8. There is an Israel of the promise, and an Israel of the flesh. This is part of the context of Romans 11.

Paul speaks about the "remnant" of Israel in Romans 9:27. This is also part of the context of Romans 11.


Paul starts Romans 11 with two different groups of Israelites. In verse one Paul reveals he is still an Israelite, even after his conversion. Then Paul refers to two different groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah. There were the Baal worshippers, and there was the faithful "remnant". In verse five Paul says there is also a faithful "remnant" of Israelites during his time. This must be the Israelites who have accepted Christ, as on the Day of Pentecost.

Paul uses the two olive trees as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of believing Israelites, and believing Gentiles grafted together into the same tree. The unbelieving Israelites have been broken off but can be grafted back in through faith in Christ in verses 23-24.


Verse 26 is the problem for many modern Christians. What does the verse actually say, and how is it changed by many in the modern Church.


I have heard two of our nations famous preachers say the following.

"And then all Israel will be saved..."


I have heard another say the following.

"And all Israel will be saved..."


What does God's Word, recorded by the Apostle Paul actually say?


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


The English word "so" is translated from the Greek word "houto", which is an adverb of manner, instead of an adverb of timing. Some have changed the word from "so" to "then", in order to change the meaning of the verse.


How will all of the "remnant" of Israel from Romans 9:27 be saved? The answer is found in the verses that precede verse 26 and are found below.


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Paul quoted from the OT in referring to the Deliverer coming out of Sion to pay for sin. Did this happen at Calvary, or will Jesus die again for His people in the future?

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Verse 28 can only be understood by looking at how Paul started the passage. He started with two different groups of Israelites and he ends the passage in the same way. There are two different groups of "they" in verse 28. One group of "they" reject Christ and are the enemies of God, and another group of "they" are the election which accept Christ through hearing the Gospel and faith.


Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.


Based on Luke 21:24b-28, the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness at the Second Coming of Christ.



.

 

[Dan Perez]

Romans Chapter 11:

In Romans 1:16 Paul said the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews. This time period can be found in Matt. 10:5-7, and Acts 10:36-38, and Gal. 1:14-18. Many try to claim God never gave


.

And in Acts 9:15 The Lord said to him , Go , because this man is a vessel of CHOOSING for Me , the one to bear My NAME before , GENTILES , and Kings and the sons of Israel .

Will you share , why the difference , between Rom 1:16 and Acts 9:15 ??

dan p