WHY ISREAL IS NOT PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST .

[HARK!]

Romans 11:11 in context

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

"they" in vs 11 can only refer to Israel in vs 7. I am reading literally what Paul is saying

Let's back up a little more:

(CLV) Ro 11:1
I am saying, then, Does not God thrust away His people? May it not be coming to that! For I also am an Israelite, out of Abraham's seed, Benjamin's tribe.

This is in a much different context than of Jeremiah 31: 31-33.

 

[Guojing]

Let's back up a little more:

(CLV) Ro 11:1
I am saying, then, Does not God thrust away His people? May it not be coming to that! For I also am an Israelite, out of Abraham's seed, Benjamin's tribe.

This is in a much different context than of Jeremiah 31: 31-33.

"His people" is Israel, I agree with that, if that is what you are saying.

How does this changed anything about what I stated about "they" in vs 11, as referring to Israel in vs 7?

I would be interested to hear your interpretation.

 

[Dan Perez]

Solomon's Kingdom is still divided, therefore:

The Jews are the House of Judah including Benjamin+Levi: the Kingdom of Judah in the Iron age.

The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel are the 10-Lost-Tribes: the Kingdom of Israel in the iron age.

These are very separate designations, according to the Prophets.

Isaiah 11:12 And He shall lift up a standard for the nations, and He shall gather the (απολομένους) lost ones of Israel, and He shall gather the (διεσπαρμένους) dispersed of Juda from the four corners of the earth.


This was written just before the Assyrian captivity:

Hosea 1:6-10 And she conceived again, and bore a daughter. And he said to him, Call her name, Unpitied: for I will no more have mercy on the House of Israel, but will surely set Myself in array against them.[7] But I will have mercy on the house of Juda…[8] And she weaned Unpitied; and she conceived again, and bore a son.[9] And He said, Call his name, not My people: for ye are not My people, and I am not your God.[10]... and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, Ye are not My people, even they shall be called the sons of the living God.LXX
Hosea 2:1-23 [16] And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord, that she shall call Me, My husband (ανήρ), and shall no longer call me Baalim.[23]And I will sow her to Me on the Earth, and will love her that was not loved: and will say to that which was not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art the Lord My God."LXX (Jeremiah 3:8, the House of Israel's bill of divorcement)

Jeremiah 31:18-20 I have heard the sound of Ephraim lamenting, and saying, Thou hast chastened me and I was chastened. I as a calf was not willingly taught: turn Thou me and I shall turn, for Thou art the Lord my God.[19] For after my captivity I repented, and after I knew I groaned for the day of shame, and shewed Thee that I bore reproach from my youth.[20] Ephraim is a beloved son, a pleasing child to me, for because My words are in him I will surely remember him. Therefore I made haste to help him, I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.LXX

____________________________
The good news of the Reign of God (Gospel of the Kingdom)

Prophecied:

Isaiah 52:3-7 For thus saith the Lord, Ye have been sold for nought; and ye shall not be ransomed with silver.[4] Thus saith the Lord, My people went down before to Egypt to sojourn there; and were carried away forcibly to the Assyrians.
[5] And now why are ye here? Thus saith the Lord, Because My people was taken for nothing, wonder ye and howl. Thus saith the Lord, On account of you My name is continually blasphemed among the Gentiles.
[6] Therefore shall My people know My name in that day, for I am He that speaks: I am present,[7] as a season of beauty upon the mountains, as the feet of one preaching glad tidings of peace, as one preaching good news: for I will publish thy salvation, saying, O Sion, thy God shall reign.LXX

Fulfilled:

Matthew 10:5-7 [5] These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

And what is yet to come is written in Eze 37:19 where Christ takes the STICK OF ISRAEL and makes them one stick and can only happen after the GREAT TRIBULATION .

dan p

 

[HARK!]

Okay, if I changed the term into "The covenant of Law", would that be acceptable to you?

YHWH calls it his covenant.


(CLV) Ex 19:5
Now, if you shall hearken, yea hearken to My voice and observe My covenant then you will become Mine, a special possession, above all of the peoples, for Mine is all the earth.

Is that acceptable to you?

 

[Guojing]

YHWH calls it his covenant.

(CLV) Ex 19:5
Now, if you shall hearken, yea hearken to My voice and observe My covenant then you will become Mine, a special possession, above all of the peoples, for Mine is all the earth.

Is that acceptable to you?

Yes of course.

but my point to you was

This mystery is that, thanks to Israel rejection of Jesus in Acts, the new creation, the Body of Christ, where all of us believers belong to, can now be saved without any covenant (Ephesians 1:7-9)?

I certainly think so. Do you think this "another way" might be possible?

Are you ready to answer this now?

 

[HARK!]

"His people" is Israel, I agree with that, if that is what you are saying.

How does this changed anything about what I stated about "they" in vs 11, as referring to Israel in vs 7?

I would be interested to hear your interpretation.

It needs to be taken in context. Paul claimed to be Israel, as a descendant of Abraham.

Did Paul reject Yahshua?

Paul also said this:

(CLV) Ro 9:6
Now it is not such as that the word of God has lapsed, for not all those out of Israel, these are Israel;

 

[HARK!]

Are you ready to answer this now?

My literal translation of Ephesians says something very much different.

(CLV) Eph 1:7
in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,

(CLV) Eph 1:8
which He lavishes on us; in all wisdom and prudence

(CLV) Eph 1:9
making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)

The word "covenant" doesn't even appear in this passage in this literal translation.

 

[Guojing]

My literal translation of Ephesians says something very much different.

(CLV) Eph 1:7
in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,

(CLV) Eph 1:8
which He lavishes on us; in all wisdom and prudence

(CLV) Eph 1:9
making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)

The word "covenant" doesn't even appear in this passage in this literal translation.

Won't your conclusion be supporting my point, that is in the body of Christ, we could be saved "without any covenant'?

 

[Guojing]

It needs to be taken in context. Paul claimed to be Israel, as a descendant of Abraham.

Did Paul reject Yahshua?

Paul also said this:

(CLV) Ro 9:6
Now it is not such as that the word of God has lapsed, for not all those out of Israel, these are Israel;

A remnant from Israel did accept him, but the nation as a whole have rejected him.

Contrast exodus 24 to this when the entire nation accepted the covenant of law

That is his point

 

[Ligurian]

Solomon's Kingdom is still divided, therefore:

The Jews are the House of Judah including Benjamin+Levi: the Kingdom of Judah in the Iron age.

The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel are the 10-Lost-Tribes: the Kingdom of Israel in the iron age.

These are very separate designations, according to the Prophets.

Isaiah 11:12 And He shall lift up a standard for the nations, and He shall gather the (απολομένους) lost ones of Israel, and He shall gather the (διεσπαρμένους) dispersed of Juda from the four corners of the earth.


This was written just before the Assyrian captivity:

Hosea 1:6-10 And she conceived again, and bore a daughter. And he said to him, Call her name, Unpitied: for I will no more have mercy on the House of Israel, but will surely set Myself in array against them.[7] But I will have mercy on the house of Juda…[8] And she weaned Unpitied; and she conceived again, and bore a son.[9] And He said, Call his name, not My people: for ye are not My people, and I am not your God.[10]... and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, Ye are not My people, even they shall be called the sons of the living God.LXX
Hosea 2:1-23 [16] And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord, that she shall call Me, My husband (ανήρ), and shall no longer call me Baalim.[23]And I will sow her to Me on the Earth, and will love her that was not loved: and will say to that which was not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art the Lord My God."LXX (Jeremiah 3:8, the House of Israel's bill of divorcement)

Jeremiah 31:18-20 I have heard the sound of Ephraim lamenting, and saying, Thou hast chastened me and I was chastened. I as a calf was not willingly taught: turn Thou me and I shall turn, for Thou art the Lord my God.[19] For after my captivity I repented, and after I knew I groaned for the day of shame, and shewed Thee that I bore reproach from my youth.[20] Ephraim is a beloved son, a pleasing child to me, for because My words are in him I will surely remember him. Therefore I made haste to help him, I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.LXX

____________________________
The good news of the Reign of God (Gospel of the Kingdom)

Prophecied:

Isaiah 52:3-7 For thus saith the Lord, Ye have been sold for nought; and ye shall not be ransomed with silver.[4] Thus saith the Lord, My people went down before to Egypt to sojourn there; and were carried away forcibly to the Assyrians.
[5] And now why are ye here? Thus saith the Lord, Because My people was taken for nothing, wonder ye and howl. Thus saith the Lord, On account of you My name is continually blasphemed among the Gentiles.
[6] Therefore shall My people know My name in that day, for I am He that speaks: I am present,[7] as a season of beauty upon the mountains, as the feet of one preaching glad tidings of peace, as one preaching good news: for I will publish thy salvation, saying, O Sion, thy God shall reign.LXX

Fulfilled:

Matthew 10:5-7 [5] These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

And what is yet to come is written in Eze 37:19 where Christ takes the STICK OF ISRAEL and makes them one stick and can only happen after the GREAT TRIBULATION .

dan p

Zechariah 11:7-17 And I will tend the sheep of the slaughter in the [land of the] Canaanites. And I will take for myself two rods; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called, A piece of measured out land; and I will tend the sheep.[8] And I will lift away the three shepherds in one month; and my soul shall be weighed down over them, for their souls roared against me.[9] And I said, I will not tend you. The dying, let it die! And the failing, let it fail! and the rest, let them each eat the flesh of his neighbor![10] And I will take my rod, Beauty, and I will throw it away to efface My Covenant which I ordained with all the peoples.[11] And it shall be effaced in that day. And the Canaanites shall know, the sheep being guarded for me, that it is [the] word [of the] LORD.[12] And I will say to them, if it is good before you, give my wage, or forbid it! And they established my wage--thirty pieces of silver.[13] And [the] Lord said to me, Lower them into the foundry furnace! and to look about if it is unadulterated! in which manner I was proved for them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and I put them into the house of [the] LORD, into the foundry furnace.[14] And I threw away my rod, the second, A Piece of Measured out Land--to efface the taking possession the [thing] between Judah and between Israel.ABP

 

[HARK!]

A remnant from Israel did accept him, but the nation as a whole have rejected him.

Contrast exodus 24 to this when the entire nation accepted the covenant of law

That is his point

...and that nation included the the mixed multitude that is the point.

So we have:

1.) The bloodline of Israel.
2.) We have the spiritual nation of Israel.
3.) We have the Pagan Israel, when the Northern tribes became Pagans.
4.) We have the secular nation of Israel.

1.) The bloodline of Israel isn't necessarily in Yahshua.
2.) The spiritual nation of Israel has always sought faithfulness to YHWH's word, Yahshua.
3.) The Pagan Israel rejects YHWH's word.
4.) The secular nation of Israel is of man.

Which Israel are necessarily Yahshua's sheep?

How can those in YHWH's renewed covenant reject the Torah; if it is written on their hearts?

 

[Guojing]

...and that nation included the the mixed multitude that is the point.

So we have:

1.) The bloodline of Israel.
2.) We have the spiritual nation of Israel.
3.) We have the Pagan Israel, when the Northern tribes became Pagans.
4.) We have the secular nation of Israel.

1.) The bloodline of Israel isn't necessarily in Yahshua.
2.) The spiritual nation of Israel has always sought faithfulness to YHWH's word, Yahshua.
3.) The Pagan Israel rejects YHWH's word.
4.) The secular nation of Israel is of man.

Which Israel are necessarily Yahshua's sheep?

How can those in YHWH's renewed covenant reject the Torah; if it is written on their hearts?

In the old testament, when a gentile joined the nation of Israel, he becomes a Jew Esther 8:17

But in the body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor gentile.

That is the difference.

As for your last paragraph, the new covenant is still future for the nation of Israel.

But I am asking you whether my point was possible. You are free to reject it but do you think it's possible to be saved without any covenant?

If you think that is impossible, could you explain why?

 

[HARK!]

Won't your conclusion be supporting my point, that is in the body of Christ, we could be saved "without any covenant'?

No. That's not in that verse either.

Do you believe that one can be a bride outside of covenant?

 

[Guojing]

No. That's not in that verse either.

Do you believe that one can be a bride outside of covenant?

You agree that the term covenant is not found in Ephesians 1:7-9

You also agree that Ephesians 1:7 stated that we have forgiveness of our sins

Yet you consider it an impossibility that forgiveness of sins can happen without a covenant?

 

[HARK!]

In the old testament, when a gentile joined the nation, he becomes a Jew Esther 8:17

What is a Jew? The letter J didn't even exist until a few hundred years ago.

Here is the Hebrew word: יהודים

Do you know what it means?

YHDYM

Yahudim

Yah's people.

Who are Yah's people?

 

[Guojing]

What is a Jew? The letter J didn't even exist until a few hundred years ago.

Here is the Hebrew word: יהודים

Do you know what it means?

YHDYM

Yahudim

Yah's people.

Who are Yah's people?

As I stated already to you, in scripture, his people always refers to the nation of Israel

 

[HARK!]

You agree that the term covenant is not found in Ephesians 1:7-9

You also agree that Ephesians 1:7 stated that we have forgiveness of our sins

Yet you consider it an impossibility that forgiveness of sins can happen without a covenant?

Sin is transgression of the Torah. If I'm not in covenant; then what need I of Torah? If the Torah doesn't apply to me; because I am not in covenant; then I can't transgress the Torah; as it doesn't apply. If there is no transgression; then what need I of forgiveness?

Forgiveness comes though repentance. What does that word mean to you?

 

[HARK!]

As I stated already to you, in scripture, his people always refers to the nation of Israel

Which Israel?

 

[Guojing]

Which Israel?

Not the current nation that we see for sure.

But neither are us in the body of Christ that Israel too.

 

[Guojing]

Sin is transgression of the Torah. If I'm not in covenant; then what need I of Torah? If the Torah doesn't apply to me; because I am not in covenant; then I can't transgress the Torah; as it doesn't apply. If there is no transgression; then what need I of forgiveness?

Forgiveness comes though repentance. What does that word mean to you?

Would Paul explanation in Romans 5:12-19 satisfy you there?

In Adam all men have sinned. When we accept Christ obedience at the cross, we received his righteousness.

No torah is involved there