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You said sin is harmful. Are you changing your mind now?
If you read post #97 you will see I said no such thing.
If you want to attempt to prove that sex outside of marriage never causes harm, feel free to proceed..
Exactly what are you talking about here? Are you asking about the specific case I was referring to? Or are you asking me to address all such relationships. And to what extent are you speaking of when you say "harm"? Are you referring to the people involved? Or are you attempting to include outsiders many of whom may deserve to be harmed? Remember; when Martin Luther King fought segregation in the 1960's, there were plenty of racists who were harmed when he succeeded in getting blacks their citizenship rights. Not all harm is bad. So to what extent are you asking me to prove?
So you're saying that two individuals who are thinking of choosing one another as the only person they will have sex with for the rest of their lives should not have sex before making that decision.
That's like deciding you're going to only go to one restaurant for the rest of your life, but refusing to eat there until you make the decision. On what planet is making a lifelong decision based on ignorance a good idea?
If I'm a Christian and I'm saved why is sinning bad why shouldn't I sin or why can't I sin
So you agree that things like sex outside marriage aren't sins? No one else has to pay for that.
So you agree that things like sex outside marriage aren't sins? No one else has to pay for that.
DaveW-Ohev said:"Sins" are not primarily about what hurts us. But about what falls short of God's will and intent. Sexual union is restricted BY GOD to the marriage covenant. Whether going outside that hurts anyone or not is irrelevant. It is deemed off-limits by God.
This is arbitrary."Sins" are not primarily about what hurts us. But about what falls short of God's will and intent.
Sexual union is restricted BY GOD to the marriage covenant.
Whether going outside that hurts anyone or not is irrelevant. It is deemed off-limits by God.
So?This is arbitrary.
What's the point in prohibiting victimless acts and punishing people for partaking them?
Resha said:I am not surprised your view on the matter differs from mine. Yet to say my view of marriage is based on ignoranance is in itself an ignorant statement as I do not recall that we've ever discussed the matter. Therefore, you can't possibly know what my views are. All I will say is that rating the value of my future spouse as a sex toy was not on the list of things to consider. Neither was discussion of sex with future spouses a forbidden topic.
My position's foundation is based on the idea of long term well-being, whereas your's is based on Bronze Age human property dogma. Maybe it's time for an update.
I dont know what community you live in, but as far as I am concerned; marriage or any type of relationship should not be subsidized by any community; but thats a different subject.I'm not asking you to prove anything. I was responding to your seeming desire to prove something to me. So, honestly, I'm not interested. I say that because I don't want to mislead you into wasting your time. I don't see what you hope to gain.
Further, I'm not interested in anecdotes. Anecdotes only serve to establish what is possible. I'm perfectly aware it is possible 2 people could enter into a lifelong committed relationship without a marriage certificate. That's why the law accounts for "common law marriage". Anecdotes, however, don't address the statistics for how many of those relationships will break up or in some other way cause "harm".
Neither am I interested in the relationship customs of the Mosuo (or whatever other culture you might drag up that functions without marriage). Why? Because it relates directly to the point I have been trying to make. I realize I can't stop sex outside marriage. So, even though I don't like it, I acknowledge it's going to happen. However, I expect those who intend to pursue such things in an unrepentant manner to live outside my community. The Mosuo are outside my community.
And that's where the issue of "harm" enters. It doesn't really matter how I would define harm because no one having sex outside marriage is going to seek my help unless they think they've been harmed. If that occurs, my position is that person has no right to demand my help (through tax-supported health care, child care, or whatever). I might have compassion on someone and decide to help them, but they can't demand help.
The only condition under which someone living in my community can expect help from me due to a damaging sexual relationship is if they are living by the rules my community has established. In my community one of the rules is that they must be married.
If you still think you have something to prove to me, you'll have to proceed under those conditions.
How do you define a marriage covenant? Is it when your idea of God says you are married? When the state says you are married? When a person claims his non-existence God says they are married? when 2 people agree to an exclusive relationship? or is it something elseSexual union is restricted BY GOD to the marriage covenant.
Whether going outside that hurts anyone or not is irrelevant. It is deemed off-limits by God.
How do you define a marriage covenant? Is it when your idea of God says you are married? When the state says you are married? When a person claims his non-existence God says they are married? when 2 people agree to an exclusive relationship? or is it something else
Ken
If the ritual is required in order to have sex, that is what I am discussing; not the purpose. So how do you define the ritual?The ritual has become more important than its purpose. People now forget the purpose, thinking that the ritual is an end to itself.
Ken-1122 said:I was only disagreeing with you when you made the claim that sin destroys, harms, and violates. If you define sin as a transgression against Gods law; nobody should make such a blanket statement unless they are prepared to defend it.
The ritual is the marriage ceremony, and IMO many Christians have lost sight of why marriage is Biblically required for sex (to protect the offspring), and instead focus on the need to have a ritual in order to gain permission to engage in sex.If the ritual is required in order to have sex, that is what I am discussing; not the purpose. So how do you define the ritual?
Ken
The ritual is the marriage ceremony, and IMO many Christians have lost sight of why marriage is Biblically required for sex (to protect the offspring), and instead focus on the need to have a ritual in order to gain permission to engage in sex.
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