Why is Western Christianity So Soft?

ZephBonkerer · May 3, 2023

I make no attempt to hide my faith. It does come up in conversations from time to time. However, I prefer to not wear my faith on my sleeve. I don't go out of my way to make my faith in Christ conspicuous.

Some low-quality people will use the "Christian" label as a means of virtue signaling - as if it were some kind of Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. I don't wish to be associated with such people.

You won't see a little fishie on my car. I don't listen to "Christian" music. I don't wear NOTW or other "Christian" apparel (but I do wear cowboy boots and western shirts).

While I am a very devout and mature believer, you would never mistake me for Ned Flanders. I am often out on Saturday nights at nightclubs or dance events. I frequent establishments where women wear halter tops and other "immodest" apparel. And I listen to whatever music I wish to hear, be it baila bachata or 80s metal. I do all of this while avoiding sin. I know what sin is and what it does - I want nothing to do with it.

Phoneman-777 · May 4, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Creationism destroyed my faith as a college student....

Creationism revived my faith after I was no longer a college student, and now I believe the Bible like I was there when God wrote it

Phoneman-777 · May 4, 2023

ZephBonkerer said:
I make no attempt to hide my faith. It does come up in conversations from time to time. However, I prefer to not wear my faith on my sleeve. I don't go out of my way to make my faith in Christ conspicuous.

Some low-quality people will use the "Christian" label as a means of virtue signaling - as if it were some kind of Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. I don't wish to be associated with such people.

You won't see a little fishie on my car. I don't listen to "Christian" music. I don't wear NOTW or other "Christian" apparel (but I do wear cowboy boots and western shirts).

While I am a very devout and mature believer, you would never mistake me for Ned Flanders. I am often out on Saturday nights at nightclubs or dance events. I frequent establishments where women wear halter tops and other "immodest" apparel. And I listen to whatever music I wish to hear, be it baila bachata or 80s metal. I do all of this while avoiding sin. I know what sin is and what it does - I want nothing to do with it.

A preacher recounting the time a brand new 737 he'd boarded was about to touch down before the pilot gunned the engines and took off into the skies again, and then he informed the passengers that the landing gear would not come down. He said they would fly around and attempt to fix the problem. After an hour and a half, the pilot announced they would have to attempt a crash landing.

The preacher never forgot the amazing transformation that took place on that plane full of passengers who went from not having a care in the world when the took off to a state of almost being frozen with fear when the pilot's voice echoed through the cabin as he prepared them to crash, "SOME OF YOU MIGHT DIE...BUT SOME OF YOU MIGHT LIVE IF YOU FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS" and the preacher said "we had to prepare to die on that plane":

Phoneman-777 · May 4, 2023

Paidiske said:
In some ways this is not really the heart of this thread, but I wanted to respond to it any way.

A bit of background; I was raised in a non-church-going home by parents who were lapsed Catholics but had picked up an eclectic grab-bag of ideas along the way; including that they rejected evolution as a scientific theory, which is what they tried to teach us as well. Straight out of school I did a science degree, majoring in genetics and immunology, and I had to deal with the fact that the religious ideas I'd been raised with at home, and the scientific ideas I was encountering at university, did not integrate neatly.

So yes, there was tension and conflict. But you know what? Accepting that tension and working through the conflict was immensely enriching. I have a better grasp of the science, and a far, far deeper knowledge of theology (to the point of a masters' degree in it), than I ever would have if I'd simply accepted a simplistic presentation of either end of the tension. And I have come to a point where I am able to integrate my faith and my scientific knowledge in, if I dare say so of myself, a mature and healthy way.

So no, tension or conflict doesn't lead to abandonment of faith (for most of us, anyway). It leads to deepening and maturing of faith. If Christian parents are afraid of that process, it's likely to stunt their children rather than protect them.

More on topic; why is western Christianity so soft? There are, perhaps, many contributing factors, but I would want to highlight this, at least; churches - of all denominations - have taken our people for granted and failed to live up to our obligations in worship, teaching and service. And then we wonder why people conclude that the church has little to offer them, when all too often, they are correct.

Hi, I think that last part is as the crux of the issue...the part about "church has little to offer them" - and there lies the problem.

Church is viewed as a road side, greasy-spoon consumable rather than the vehicle that it is which God designed to scoop up wayward pedestrians on our way to the promised land.

We have Hybels, Warren, Shuller, and all those other non-denominational "heavy hitters" to thank for transforming Christianity from a "God-centered" movement of taking the Gospel into the unknown, to the "man-centered" safe-space, cry closet failure that it is, as evidenced by Hybel's infamous "We made a mistake" summation of Willow Creek's mission. But, I am fully convinced that very soon all those who profess Christianity, but reject God's precepts, prescribed methods for ministry, male/female gender roles, eschatological truths which are exchanged for popular myths, who use Scripture to justify the most egregious sin will be shaken out - and leave behind a "church without spot or blemish or any such thing" for which Jesus will then return.

Hot water and hot irons are what gets out those spots and wrinkles, darlin

Paidiske · May 4, 2023

Phoneman-777 said:
Church is viewed as a road side, greasy-spoon consumable rather than the vehicle that it is which God designed to scoop up wayward pedestrians on our way to the promised land.

Perhaps; but my point is, to the extent that it is viewed that way, it is because church has often behaved that way. Instead of being a sign, instrument and foretaste of God's reign.

Phoneman-777 said:
We have Hybels, Warren, Shuller, and all those other non-denominational "heavy hitters" to thank for transforming Christianity from a "God-centered" movement of taking the Gospel into the unknown, to the "man-centered" safe-space, cry closet failure that it is, as evidenced by Hybel's infamous "We made a mistake" summation of Willow Creek's mission.

I suspect the rot set in much earlier; perhaps beginning as early as the Edict of Milan.

Phoneman-777 said:
But, I am fully convinced that very soon all those who profess Christianity, but reject God's precepts, prescribed methods for ministry, male/female gender roles, eschatological truths which are exchanged for popular myths, who use Scripture to justify the most egregious sin will be shaken out - and leave behind a "church without spot or blemish or any such thing" for which Jesus will then return.

Hmm. I suspect it's going to be a much more nuanced experience for quite a while yet. What I think perhaps we can agree on is that God isn't finished with us yet, and that is something for which we can be profoundly grateful!

stevevw · May 7, 2023

Phoneman-777 said:
Despite the false claims of leftist Fake News, Christianity is the single most persecuted group in the world - not women, not gays, not transgenders, blacks or browns...Christians. While there are good people doing a good job raising awareness of the plight of our global Christian family - such as Voice of the Martyrs, Open Doors, ACLJ - sadly, most Christians don't know what's going on a mere few feet beyond their own church parking lot. If we did, maybe we'd be far less easily offended, easily discouraged, and less likely to give up on God when the going gets tough as often is the case.

In far away lands, Christian women are raped and jailed, their children taken into custody, Christian men and pastors are imprisoned, tortured, killed, churches are targeted and firebombed, governments of pagan countries hostile toward Christianity offer little to no protection, and even far worse atrocities are widespread across the Christian world...but here in the West it's another story.

Here, we enjoy religious freedom. We enjoy the 1st Amendment which forbids state sponsored religion. We enjoy Section 8 of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which guarantees workplace religious freedom. We enjoy 501(c)3 tax exempt status which allows billions to be put to use for the cause of God, but much of which is sadly pocketed by unscrupulous "preachers". Yet, in all this, many Christians live under the apprehension that their world will end at any moment. Their boyfriend will break up with them, their church may not re-elect them to that coveted position of leadership, they may be seen as kooky by their secular friends if they join a church, they may even face "difficulties" at home from an unbelieving spouse if they decide to follow Jesus, which often don't go beyond mild annoyance by their significant other. Western Christianity seems to be the weakest spiritually than anywhere else. As that comprehensive Willow Creek church study proved, the more money we throw at this ministry or that ministry, the lesser the positive outcome. Christian divorce is on the rise, children abandon their faith in college for atheistic evolution due to their indiferent "Christian" parents having failed to teach them the difference between Biblically accurate science and the false science of the atheistic scientific community, church attendance wanes, immorality/alcohol/drug/p*rn addiction is on the rise among believers - the wretchedness of Western Christianity seems to only grow worse and worse.

I think we need to go back to the beginning. We need to get back to our "first love" and "remember from whence thou hast fallen". We need to develop a thankful heart for what we have instead of resenting God for what we think we've be unjustly denied. What we need is a generous dose of persecution:

"The apostle Paul declares that 'all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.' Why is it, then, that persecution seems in a great degree to slumber? The only reason is that the church has conformed to the world's standard and therefore awakens no opposition....It is only because of the spirit of compromise with sin, because the great truths of the Word of God are so indifferently regarded, because there is so little vital godliness in the church, that Christianity is apparently so popular with the world. Let there be a revival of faith and power of the early church, and the spirit of persecution will be revived, and the fires of persecution will be rekindled." —The Great Controversy, 48.

I think the persecution Christians face in other nations besides Western ones is mostly done by regimes that have extreme ideological beliefs different than Christainity. But in Western nations who were primarily Christain up until around 60 or so years ago where Christain values have been installed we have avoided such extreme persecution.

But I think as time has gone by and society has moved away from God and the Christain worldview this is ploarizing Christains and secular society and this in turn is bringing heat on Christains because now Christains are seen as a threat and clashes with secular Post modernist ideology. I think as time goes by we will see this polarization and conflict grow to the point where Christains will be persecuted. In fact is happening now.

Since society has rejected God and the void of belief has been filled with human secular beliefs and ideas about morality and how we should order society. This rejects God and nature. This has really only evolved since the year 2000 but is beginning to take roots in our institutions in the last 10 or so years though the thinking began around the 90's with Critical theory as an outgrowth of the cultural and political revolutions of the 60's.

Now we are seeing clashes between Christain and to a lesser extent conservative views and progressive Left views and this is increasing with laws and Rights based politics where religious rights and minority rights are inevitably going to meet. Governments have neglected to clarify religious rights and now it seems another Christain value parental and family rights are coming under attack.

I believe governments have purposely left this situation ambigious and as a result this has allowed activists and lobbyist to influence the governments position which is siding with Leftist ideology. As time goes on this conflict will only grow and I think the Christain position will be pushed to the fringes and with it will come Christain persecultion. Maybe not in the way it has happened overseas but still bad enough.

As witnessed with protests and debates things can get pretty ugly and violent. Now even language is seen as violent let alone actual physical harm. If language is seen as violence then this only justfies physical violence and that is the ideological thinking. This only pushes things to the extremes and so we are witnessing the rise of extremism in western nations. I think its only a matter of time before physical violence will become more common to stop any opposing views that are seen as a threat.

Phoneman-777 · May 7, 2023

stevevw said:
I think the persecution Christians face in other nations besides Western ones is mostly done by regimes that have extreme ideological beliefs different than Christainity. But in Western nations who were primarily Christain up until around 60 or so years ago where Christain values have been installed we have avoided such extreme persecution.

But I think as time has gone by and society has moved away from God and the Christain worldview this is ploarizing Christains and secular society and this in turn is bringing heat on Christains because now Christains are seen as a threat and clashes with secular Post modernist ideology. I think as time goes by we will see this polarization and conflict grow to the point where Christains will be persecuted. In fact is happening now.

Prophecy says just before Jesus comes back, EVERYONE is going to be worshipping - atheism will disappear. How? "...they are the spirits of devils working miracles, which go forth to deceive the nations".

People have grown so Biblically illiterate that they'll believe anything - and though Peter says the ultimate evidence for truth is "the sure word of prophecy" in God's Word, people have shown themselves to fully advocate that "the Holy Scriptures must be thrown aside" in exchange for whatever they see and hear.

So, to your point, there will be and explosion of persecution of Christians, but it'll be at the hands of false Christians who profess belief in Christ but will prove themselves totally bankrupt of His holiness.

ZephBonkerer · May 7, 2023

When I studied history, it seems to me that persecution tends to be worst in places rules by totalitarian regimes, or where the prevailing religion is maintained for political reasons. That is where the ruling elite would become totally irrelevant and powerless if enough people abandoned their false religion for a saving faith in Jesus Christ.

Phoneman-777 · May 7, 2023

ZephBonkerer said:
When I studied history, it seems to me that persecution tends to be worst in places rules by totalitarian regimes, or where the prevailing religion is maintained for political reasons. That is where the ruling elite would become totally irrelevant and powerless if enough people abandoned their false religion for a saving faith in Jesus Christ.

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Richard Price.

ZephBonkerer · May 9, 2023

Phoneman-777 said:
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Richard Price.

Using religion for political purposes is as old as religion itself. I remember reading of an Egyptian Pharaoh who insisted that only the Sun God is God. Many believed his motivation was to weaken the influence of the priests of the other gods.

EclipseEventSigns · May 9, 2023

3 pages of comments and only 1 person has actually identified the real issue. We are currently in the Laodicean Church era. And it will only get worse and more and more people become increasingly apostate. But the faithful will become increasingly strong in their faith.

shaul · May 10, 2023

Anyone who looks at the condition of the Western World today (which started out and was formed on the belief of a God, morality, and ultimate judgement for the life you live) and the utter sad moral state of the Western World today, has to admit, the salt has lost its savor.

The Church today is not very well respected in the Western World and that is not without good reason. Many churches today have embraced the world and turned to a socially acceptable Gospel.

That Socially acceptable Gospel can take on many forms. Some of it has to do with the Church's acceptance of World Sins and Vice, like homosexuality and Transvestism. Some of it has to do with a form of spiritual Gnosticism, where fleshly desires are not to be shun but embrace so Grace can abound. Others turn to an acceptance of the accumulation of wealth as a means to show approval by God. This leads to selfishness, greed, and covetousness. Other sins include indulging in and coverups of pedophilia amd tolerance of other forms of licentiousness behavior.

Many of these vices that many Churches and Denominations accept today, have been enbraced by Churches of the past as well. However, the revelation of the overall Church's moral and spiritual failing are much more pronounced due to technology and 24 hour news. Jesus was specific in saying that we are the light of the world and that we cannot put that light under a bushel and expect the world to be illuminated. He also specifically stated we are the salt of the earth (the preservative), but if our salt is no longer viable, the earth has no preservative by which to be spared.

That is not to say God's people are anywhere near perfect nor that they will be completely free from worldly entanglements. It is as Paul often states, a daily struggle. Neither do we condemn sinners but we must not condone the sin. But ask yourself a question, how many times do you hear modern sermons mentions the wages of sin, evil in the world, and how we need to be Holy as God is Holy?

FireDragon76 · May 11, 2023

ZephBonkerer said:
Using religion for political purposes is as old as religion itself. I remember reading of an Egyptian Pharaoh who insisted that only the Sun God is God. Many believed his motivation was to weaken the influence of the priests of the other gods.

You're thinking of the cult of Aten. And yeah, cynical historians do think that. More sympathetic ones believe it was due to Akhenaten's religious experience. In reality, church and politics in the ancient world were often one and the same.

It's hard to describe the cult of Aten. It wasn't exactly worshiping the sun, but the sun was a kind of representation of Aten. Perhaps fitting in with other "cults of light" of the ancient world, such as Zoroastrianism or Pure Land Buddhism. There were movements in Egyptian religion at the time towards an inclusive monotheism in general.

Why is Western Christianity So Soft?

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