Why is transubstantiation important?

[Tinker Grey]

We get it. You don't think it's important. No amount of explaining is going to change your mind. You're an atheist - why do you care? This whole thread is pointless.

It's called Exploring Christianity. I'm exploring. I'm curious. I'm not asking you to convince me it is important. I'm trying to understand why others think the distinction is important.

If you don't want to participate, then don't.

 

[ebia]

Pardon my flippancy, but how is eating a cracker and drinking grape by-product participating even if you believe in the presense. You wanna participate, go get crucified. Eating the wafer even believing Christ is present is in no way participating.

It just is. That's what Jews historically have believed about the passover meal - that by eating the passover the meal one is participating in the original passover.

Trying to define how leads one down the same sort of path to no-where that transubstantiation is in another way. By eating and drinking the body and blood we are participating at the same level as the first disciples in that action of meal, death and resurrection.

And, tell an Aggie that standing in the stands is not participating in a football game. Look into Texas A&M and the Twelfth Man tradition. In that culture, standing in the stands is participating.

You can call it participating if you want, but then it's a different sort of participating. Language is ambigious - I would rather call one participation and the other something else than make every sentence long winded by needing to distinguish in some other way.

 

[MichaelFJF]

It's called Exploring Christianity. I'm exploring. I'm curious. I'm not asking you to convince me it is important. I'm trying to understand why others think the distinction is important.

If you don't want to participate, then don't.

Yeah and then you argue about it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

It just is.

OK. So, it boils down to a matter of faith. It just is.

A Baptist, by matter of faith, might assert that he is participating. You would assert that he isn't really. And y'all, if you're polite about it, would agree to disagree. He would say he is participiating because he is obedient. You would say you are participating because of the presense (or belief therein, thru faith).

So the short answer to why it is important is: Because for those who believe in it, the belief in it is essential to the understanding of participation.

Yes?

I like the analogy to the passover and the jewish sense of participation. I rather doubt though that Jews of any stripe (orthodox, conservative, reformed, etc.) would assert that the lamb they eat becomes the lamb their ancestors ate.

I guess I would have to ask a Jew that question.

Thanks.

 

[ebia]

OK. So, it boils down to a matter of faith. It just is.

A Baptist, by matter of faith, might assert that he is participating. You would assert that he isn't really. And y'all, if you're polite about it, would agree to disagree. He would say he is participiating because he is obedient. You would say you are participating because of the presense (or belief therein, thru faith).

Not quite. I would say I was particpating in the action itself, he is particpating in reflection on the action. You can play with the words forever, but those are not quite the same sort of things.

So the short answer to why it is important is: Because for those who believe in it, the belief in it is essential to the understanding of participation.

Yes. Or rather it should be. I don't know that everyone who subscribes to real presence understands much about it's signficance.

I like the analogy to the passover and the jewish sense of participation. I rather doubt though that Jews of any stripe (orthodox, conservative, reformed, etc.) would assert that the lamb they eat becomes the lamb their ancestors ate.

I guess I would have to ask a Jew that question.

You would. And it would be an interesting question. I know a lot less about modern Jewish understanding than 2nd Temple understanding.

 

[packermann]

I would like to share my testimony with you. I’ll try to keep it short.


I was raised Catholic but left the faith to become a Protestant “born-again” Christians. I went to a Protestant seminary, and then became a Baptist minister. For three years I loved the people and they loved me. It’s a long story that I do not to bore you, but after three year we had a difference of opinion and I was kicked out. I felt that I was betrayed. They even lied to other and what actually happened. I was devastated. Each day I had to battle thoughts of suicide. The worst thing was that God seemed so distant. I felt He abandoned me. I was angry at God. I fell into looking at porn all the time. I tried to get out of this. I would go to church and respond to altar calls. But nothing helped. Finally I gave up on the church. The church scene would bring back the bitter memories of what happened to me.

I finally married a Catholic woman. I went to Mass with her. I was bored, but at least the Mass was so different than the Baptist service that it did not bring my bitter memories. I no longer suffered from my severe depression and thoughts of suicide. But I still sensed an emptiness inside, I was addicted to porn, and I felt distant from God. In fact, I could not pray to God anymore. Every time I tried to pray, my bitter memories came back to me.

I started to listen to Catholic radio. This brought back memories of a Catholic friend who discussed with me about the Catholic Church. Intellectually, I became convinced of the Catholic Church. But I still was not getting fed there. I still found the Mass boring. After fifteen years of being in the Catholic church again, I decided to receive the Eucharist. Right after receiving the Eucharist, I received an incredible urge to go to Confession, which I did. Then I started having a desire to pray the Rosary.

My life changed. I gave up porn. I was able to pray to God again. He no longer seemed distant. In fact, I feel closer to God then I ever felt before, even when I was a minister. I was able to forgive those who hurt me in the past. And I have an incredible love for Jesus that I never had before. There is nothing more important to me than to serve Him.

When I was an Evangelical, I heard many testimonies from people whom God touched. I heard how God touched them through someone’s witness, I heard how God touched them through a sermon, I heard how God touched them through prayer. But I never heard a testimony as a Baptist on how God changed his life through the Lord’s Supper. When I was a Baptist, this bothered me. Jesus instituted this Supper just before He died, so Jesus must have considered it important for one’s spiritual life. And yet I never met a Baptist who said that the Lord’s Supper changed his life. I heard Baptists saying that the Bible changed their lives. But never the Lord’s Supper. And yet if the Lord’s Supper does not change our lives, did not Jesus institute an empty ritual? But this does make sense! Jesus just condemned the Pharisees for their empty rituals. Why would institute an empty ritual?

And yet as a Baptist, it was a mere empty ritual. As a Baptist minister, we only had the Lord’s Supper once every three months. I used to rationalize this by saying to myself that the less we have it that the more special it would be for us. But this bunk! Using this logic, it would be better to pray or read the Bible very infrequently, because the more we pray or read the Bible, the more special it would be. In Acts 2:46, it that the New Testament church was devoted daily to the “breaking of the bread”, which is the Lord’s Supper. The is no Protestant Church that celebrates the Lord’s Supper every days. The Catholic Church is alone is doing that.

I go to Mass every day to receive Christ in the Eucharist before I go to work. I do not do this because I am required to do this. And I am not doing this because I think I am holier-than-thou. In fact, I do this because I realize how weak I am without it. When I go, there are 75 to 100 Catholics who are there with me to receive the Eucharist. I cannot imagine these people doing this every day except that they, along with me, found that the Eucharist changed their lives! This is the same thing that New Testament church discovered and took the Eucharist daily.

I just wanted to point out that true theology should change our lives, otherwise it is merely idle speculation, which the Bible condemns (1Tim 1:4). With this theological discussion going on, ask yourself this question. Has God changed your life through the bread and wine that you take? If not, then I think it should give you pause on whether your theology of the elements of the bread and wine is true. If God is not using the Eucharist to change your life, then maybe you do not have the right Eucharist.

 

[Stravinsk]

I think it is important to remember that Christ said "this is my body...this is my blood..." prior to shedding His blood and submitting His body to torture and the cross.

To do something in rememberance is to recognize a past event. Not a current one. For...


Hebrews 10:10-12 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 ¶ And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Transubstantiation is a doctrine that has Christ continually sacrificed. The recognition of a past event, not a current one, is what the Lord's supper is about.

 

[chilehed]

I grew up with the understanding that the elements of communion are symbolic (obviously, protestant). Why is it important that one believe that the elements, once blessed, are the actual body and blood of Christ?

Thanks.

It's important because
1. It's true.
2. The bible says that it's important to recognise it as true.