Why Is This A Problem???

[Tone]

One decides to leave the lever where it is and sacrifices four people for the sake of doing the right thing.

The physical action/non-action is nothing. Its your decision that matters morally.

On what basis?

 

[jacknife]

If you didn't have to kill somebody...if it was just a matter of being in a position to save lives...

...of course you pull the lever.

The crux of the scenario in question is that there is no basis for deciding to take life to save life.

How about a scenario I encounter a lot at work.
A patient is dying all things medically possible have been tried but sadly it's their time. They lay in thier hospital bed dying, now since they can't move they lay in one spot. This causes them to develop bed sores which are painful. In order to prevent this a patient is rolled onto a diffrent side every 2 hours. However the patient is so sick that rolling them might be enough to send them over the edge. Would you do it?

 

[durangodawood]

On what basis?

Which statement of mine are you asking about?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's fascinating how this is often viewed as killing one person instead of saving five.

There is a similar scenario where I'm visiting a foreign country run by a tyrant. The tyrant is about to execute 10 people as I am walking by and offers to free nine if I shoot one.

I can refuse and ten die. I can kill one and nine live. What causes me to hesitate? I don't want to commit murder. Essentially, I value my own righteousness more than nine lives. Or, I am unwilling to sacrifice my goodness for the sake of nine lives. Once it is framed that way, it appears I value my own righteousness more than the lives of others, which is selfish. On the other hand, to sacrifice one's own goodness for the sake of the many is a sacrifice worth considering. What matters more, my sense of being a good person or nine lives? Would I sacrifice nine lives to be good? That's such an odd thought.

who am I to choose who should live or die?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ok. Then step up because God intends for you to steer the plane.

I don’t need to worry about that because if it is His plan for me to do it then I won’t have any choice in the matter.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I disagree when in situations where lives are at stake the only wrong decision is to not make a decision.

Again who am I to choose who should live or die?

 

[jacknife]

Again who am I to choose who should live or die?

A person capable of saving lives in front of you.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You arent killing any people. That burden lies with whoever caused the runaway trolley.

I'm saying its better to save more lives, all other things being equal.

I am asking why you believe this? Why saving five lives is better than saving one?

 

[Tone]

Okay here's a scenario I'm currently in:

I'm on the trolley on the way to work. There's a dude down the row acting very erratic... yelling, cursing, arguing with the invisible...very angry.

Talking about he committed multiple murders.

My initial thought...get out of this car and go to another, before I possibly have to defend myself.

But then, I saw that there is a woman with two kids on the other side of me.

So, I stay between him and them...I feel it's the right thing to do.

Ha ha, he just left, and I noticed that he had a little electric chainsaw.

Why am I so confident in my decision?

Because it was my life I would lay down..this is my lever.

The lever in the OP is not mine...

*True story btw...

 

[durangodawood]

I am asking why you believe this? Why saving five lives is better than saving one?

Because I value lives. And I value reducing suffering. Most people do. We get together and call those things "better". If youre looking for an additional cosmic backstop to those values, ask one of the Christians.

 

[durangodawood]

I don’t need to worry about that because if it is His plan for me to do it then I won’t have any choice in the matter.

Ah. The robot/zombie approach to every moral problem: dont need to think about it, I'm gonna follow Gods plan regardless.

In that condition you dont even need to have moral beliefs. Just follow the script.

 

[Tone]

Which statement of mine are you asking about?

That it's a sacrifice, that it's the right thing, and that it's your decision.

 

[durangodawood]

That it's a sacrifice, that it's the right thing, and that it's your decision.

Once you apprehend the options before you, you cannot un-apprehend them. At that point you will decide for one option or the other. There's no way out of that, unless youre a robot.

 

[Tone]

Once you apprehend the options before you, you cannot un-apprehend them. At that point you will decide for one option or the other. There's no way out of that, unless youre a robot.

On what basis are you not a robot?

 

[durangodawood]

On what basis are you not a robot?

For the Christian, its that you are made in the image of God, who is not a robot.

For me, its that it just seems like I'm not a robot. But a free will discussion could lead us far afield here. So I hesitate going down this road.

 

[Tone]

For the Christian, its that you are made in the image of God, who is not a robot.

For me, its that it just seems like I'm not a robot. But a free will discussion could lead us far afield here. So I hesitate going down this road.

Fair enough.

On what basis is it a sacrifice?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ah. The robot/zombie approach to every moral problem: dont need to think about it, I'm gonna follow Gods plan regardless.

In that condition you dont even need to have moral beliefs. Just follow the script.

Again can you give one single example of anyone who failed to accomplish a task God has given them? Jonah tried and still wasn’t able to fail to accomplish God’s task for him.

 

[o_mlly]

Because I value lives.

What value do you assign to one life?
The value of one innocent human life is infinite, ie., innumerate. Five infinities are not greater than one infinity.

For all the "lever-pullers", let's suppose that the one innocent tied to the track doesn't think it's a good day to die. (Say, he has a sick wife with COVID and 8 children to care for. If that's not a good enough reason to want to live, make up one that you think does.)

Fortunately, he's armed and with his one free hand, he can bring his weapon to bear. You, the bystander, yell out, "I must pull the lever!". You put your hand on the lever and the one on the tracks shoots you dead. Now 6 people died.

 

[durangodawood]

Fair enough.

On what basis is it a sacrifice?

In that those 4 people pay with their lives for the sake of you leaving the scene with a "I didnt get involved" feeling. Maybe sacrifice isnt the right word for that.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't think doing nothing absolves one of culpability in this situation. If you see someone drowning, and you're an excellent swimmer and capable, you are obligated to get involved. Standing there saying, "I didn't cause this" doesn't help.

Since, given the scenario, you can do something you are already deciding five should die, instead of one. Whatever you do, you're culpable unless you think something like double-effect absolves you, which is a possible rejoinder no one seems to be appropriating.

I will admit that when my Bio-Medical Ethics professor used this Peter Singer Zinger, it was somewhat compelling ...