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Why is there something instead of nothing?

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Alright, I'll bite. How exactly would you make a scientific argument for that?

First off we need to know what "matter" is. As per the standard model of particle generation: The stuff we call physical matter is the lightest of 3 possible density families of "matter" (internal pos charge, external neg) that the universe is capable of keeping stable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_(particle_physics)
Fourth and further generations are considered to be unlikely.

According to the results of the statistical analysis by researchers from CERN, and Humboldt University of Berlin, the existence of further fermions can be excluded with a probability of 99.99999% (5.3 sigma).


So there are 2 heavier densities of matter and for every particle there is an anti-particle.


So then the universe is also capable of rendering 3 stable families of anti-matter (internal neg charge, external pos) but this arrangement of charge is not supported by our relative bend of space time as evidenced by it's faster decay rate. CERN scientists find asymmetry in particle decay

So if there is other invisible matter in the universe, in other separate and overlapping space-time bends (one for each of the 6 types) I would expect a 1/6 matter to "dark matter" ratio. About 17%. Mind you, I'm not estimating the amount of matter, I'm dividing by spaces. Refined modern estimates of matter to dark matter is 5% to 27% with dark energy taking up about 68%. 5/17 is 18%.

My specific claim is that what we experience as emotion is an interaction with 2nd density matter that exists in a space time that horizontally overlaps ours.

People have "triggers" and "buttons" because they have collected this matter and electromagnetism sets it into motion either as something we see that "sets us off" or is by a thought, active of reactive. Mostly we see this displayed in a reactive manner.

It's even in our language: "Something is weighing on my mind" (emotional distress) "Whoa man that's heavy" (feelings when some consider very large thoughts for the first time) "It is with a heavy heart..." (bearer of bad news). We "carry emotional baggage" if we don't make it a point not to accumulate it and or process/destroy/transform it as it comes in.

Some call it the astral realm. It's the stuff dreams are made of. The ancients called it the water realm. The river we cross after death. Some get stuck there, some walk right on over it. We are currently fully immersed in it.


Certainly the largest terraforming agent on earth is human emotion. Through greed the resources are consumed and pollution created in greater and greater amounts. Through co-operation rivers are turned into multi-story retaining ponds that prevent erosion, flash flooding, alleviates drought conditions and feeds the whole village not to mention greatly multiplying biodiversity.

Have you ever seen a rich fat cat who has every physical want and comfort in the world totally lose their cool when some no-body dares not to kow-tow to their glorious ego? They have no thought control over their internal accumulation and inertia, a few well placed words by you average troll will set them right off.

Have you ever known a man who was so in control of himself that no matter what unforeseen difficulty arose at work he never let it sway his intentful positive attitude?

Those who properly conduct themselves uprightly, having a sense of justice and positive/negative movement of soul have a greater electromagnetic dominion (3rd density matter) over the 2nd density emotions.

Because being just and equanimous with your fellow man then has greater draw/attraction/gravity than taking advantage of them. But this only applies to those collecting and refining 3rd density matter. It is the stuff ideals are made of. It overlaps our bend of space time vertically.
 
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True Scotsman

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Since there is something and not nothing, a better question would be: what is something? The something that exists at the highest level of reality is like Plato’s ideal plane .........

Two Questions:

How do you know what exists at the highest level of reality?

Why start with nothing when we know there is something?

You are in effect saying, "I know that existence exists, but I'm not satisfied starting with that. I'm going to go outside of existence to an unknowable, unexplainable cause and start there". A dead end.
 
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Colter

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God is the cause, existence is the effect, observation is conditioned by the observer. The universe cannot be explained apart form first cause. Effect doesn't cause itself. "God is the first truth and the last fact.." UB 1955

In evolution, when man attains consciousness of truth, beauty and goodness, then and there he begins what can be the real search for eternal origins.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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God is the cause, existence is the effect, observation is conditioned by the observer. The universe cannot be explained apart form first cause. Effect doesn't cause itself. "God is the first truth and the last fact.." UB 1955

In evolution, when man attains consciousness of truth, beauty and goodness, then and there he begins what can be the real search for eternal origins.

How can existence be an effect of God if God exists? I feel that this is a bit of silly word play.
 
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HitchSlap

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“rationally persuasive” is subjective. I would say I have done that by putting the pieces together.

The Bible...the great riddle of human history, a book written by numorous authors over thousands of years, claiming to be inspired by the Creator of all things…thousands of miracle…millions of followers…fulfilled prophecies, but the Bible is so enigmatic and contradictory.

Now. It. Makes. Sense.

You don’t think that is the slightest bit persuasive?

The bible was written by anonymous/pseudonymous authors, contains inaccurate historical data, omits other significant moments of history, has outright fabrications of history, is full of contradictions, and there is a growing body of scholarship that suggests that the Jesus from Galilee may have never existed.

So no, given the facts, the bible is not persuasive in the least.
 
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Colter

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How can existence be an effect of God if God exists? I feel that this is a bit of silly word play.

Of coarse you feel that way, you left God and now work to discredit those who are loyal to him.

Time and space, the material universe, is a post eternal Paradise creation of God.

"Mankind is slow to perceive that, in all that is personal, matter is the skeleton of morontia, and that both are the reflected shadow of enduring spirit reality. How long before you will regard time as the moving image of eternity and space as the fleeting shadow of Paradise realities?"UB 1955​
 
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True Scotsman

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Time and space, the material universe, is a post eternal Paradise creation of God.

"Mankind is slow to perceive that, in all that is personal, matter is the skeleton of morontia, and that both are the reflected shadow of enduring spirit reality. How long before you will regard time as the moving image of eternity and space as the fleeting shadow of Paradise realities?"UB 1955​

You've made an assertion, now prove it. How can we reliably distinguish between what you are calling God and something you may merely be imagining? When you read the Urantia Book are you not imagining what it says in order to "perceive" it and if you are looking inward to your imagination how can this be considered knowledge of reality?
 
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PsychoSarah

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Of coarse you feel that way, you left God and now work to discredit those who are loyal to him.

Time and space, the material universe, is a post eternal Paradise creation of God.

"Mankind is slow to perceive that, in all that is personal, matter is the skeleton of morontia, and that both are the reflected shadow of enduring spirit reality. How long before you will regard time as the moving image of eternity and space as the fleeting shadow of Paradise realities?"UB 1955​

A perception doesn't equate to a reality
 
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grasping the after wind

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A perception doesn't equate to a reality

Though I agree with this statement can you tell me how one can come to any idea of reality without using some means of perception? If one must use perception to come to an idea of reality,how can we ever say we can be sure what is real and what is not.
 
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Colter

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You've made an assertion, now prove it. How can we reliably distinguish between what you are calling God and something you may merely be imagining? When you read the Urantia Book are you not imagining what it says in order to "perceive" it and if you are looking inward to your imagination how can this be considered knowledge of reality?

Consciousness of spirit reality can't be proven or disproven. This is even more true of an ego that is clueless to the realm of the spirit, and who actively works against it. If you were spirit born you would know, but you aren't so you don't.
 
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True Scotsman

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Consciousness of spirit reality can't be proven or disproven. This is even more true of an ego that is clueless to the realm of the spirit, and who actively works against it. If you were spirit born you would know, but you aren't so you don't.

I see. So if this spirit reality is indistinguishable from something that is imaginary, how is it not imaginary? Seriously. I can imagine a spirit reality and give it any identity I choose but it is still merely imaginary. What makes your imaginary spirit realm any more real than anyone else's imaginary realm that can't be proved? Is it not working against reality to hold such beliefs that can not be proved?
 
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Colter

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I see. So if this spirit reality is indistinguishable from something that is imaginary, how is it not imaginary? Seriously. I can imagine a spirit reality and give it any identity I choose but it is still merely imaginary. What makes your imaginary spirit realm any more real than anyone else's imaginary realm that can't be proved? Is it not working against reality to hold such beliefs that can not be proved?

No, you don't "see", you are blind to spirit realities. For you it is a forgone conclusion that the spiritual realities that people born of faith testify about are "imaginary". According to you, by default, love is imaginary, good is imaginary, values are imaginary, evil is imaginary. You can insist that you are merely an electrochemical phenomenon, a byproduct of self existent, purposeless and lifeless atomic mater, but you have only demonstrated that one can be intelligent but unwise. You work against the reality of sonship with the universal Father by insisting on orphan hood. What you have is a form of belligerent denial.
 
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True Scotsman

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No, you don't "see", you are blind to spirit realities. For you it is a forgone conclusion that the spiritual realities that people born of faith testify about are "imaginary". According to you, by default, love is imaginary, good is imaginary, values are imaginary, evil is imaginary. You can insist that you are merely an electrochemical phenomenon, a byproduct of self existent, purposeless and lifeless atomic mater, but you have only demonstrated that one can be intelligent but unwise. You work against the reality of sonship with the universal Father by insisting on orphan hood. What you have is a form of belligerent denial.

Of course values like love and good and and dis-values like evil exist. They are conscious actions which are directly observable. Actions have identity. If they didn't we would not have verbs like "love" and "care for" or "dislike". That is not the issue here. The issue here is the idea that existence, which is perceptually self evident, needs to be explained but the unprovable and thus unknowable explanation called God does not need to be explained or accounted for.

That's what you are saying. Follow the logic to it's conclusion. Tho original post asked why there is something instead of nothing and the answer that theists give is not of any cognitive value. If it can't be proved or disproved it is simply arbitrary and doesn't serve any cognitive purpose.
 
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Colter

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Of course values like love and good and and dis-values like evil exist. They are conscious actions which are directly observable. Actions have identity. If they didn't we would not have verbs like "love" and "care for" or "dislike". That is not the issue here. The issue here is the idea that existence, which is perceptually self evident, needs to be explained but the unprovable and thus unknowable explanation called God does not need to be explained or accounted for.

That's what you are saying. Follow the logic to it's conclusion. Tho original post asked why there is something instead of nothing and the answer that theists give is not of any cognitive value. If it can't be proved or disproved it is simply arbitrary and doesn't serve any cognitive purpose.

The consciousness of God is observable in the faith life of religious people. God is knowable for those who seek him. You hide behind the logic defense, intellectualism.




The Characteristics of Religion​

Religion is so vital that it persists in the absence of learning. It lives in spite of its contamination with erroneous cosmologies and false philosophies; it survives even the confusion of metaphysics. In and through all the historic vicissitudes of religion there ever persists that which is indispensable to human progress and survival: the ethical conscience and the moral consciousness.

Faith-insight, or spiritual intuition, is the endowment of the cosmic mind in association with the Thought Adjuster, which is the Father’s gift to man. Spiritual reason, soul intelligence, is the endowment of the Holy Spirit, the Creative Spirit’s gift to man. Spiritual philosophy, the wisdom of spirit realities, is the endowment of the Spirit of Truth, the combined gift of the bestowal Sons to the children of men. And the co-ordination and interassociation of these spirit endowments constitute man a spirit personality in potential destiny.

It is this same spirit personality, in primitive and embryonic form, the Adjuster possession of which survives the natural death in the flesh. This composite entity of spirit origin in association with human experience is enabled, by means of the living way provided by the divine Sons, to survive (in Adjuster custody) the dissolution of the material self of mind and matter when such a transient partnership of the material and the spiritual is divorced by the cessation of vital motion.

Through religious faith the soul of man reveals itself and demonstrates the potential divinity of its emerging nature by the characteristic manner in which it induces the mortal personality to react to certain trying intellectual and testing social situations. Genuine spiritual faith (true moral consciousness) is revealed in that it:

1. Causes ethics and morals to progress despite inherent and adverse animalistic tendencies.*

2. Produces a sublime trust in the goodness of God even in the face of bitter disappointment and crushing defeat.

3. Generates profound courage and confidence despite natural adversity and physical calamity.

4. Exhibits inexplicable poise and sustaining tranquillity notwithstanding baffling diseases and even acute physical suffering.

5. Maintains a mysterious poise and composure of personality in the face of maltreatment and the rankest injustice.

6. Maintains a divine trust in ultimate victory in spite of the cruelties of seemingly blind fate and the apparent utter indifference of natural forces to human welfare.

7. Persists in the unswerving belief in God despite all contrary demonstrations of logic and successfully withstands all other intellectual sophistries.

8. Continues to exhibit undaunted faith in the soul’s survival regardless of the deceptive teachings of false science and the persuasive delusions of unsound philosophy.

9. Lives and triumphs irrespective of the crushing overload of the complex and partial civilizations of modern times.

10. Contributes to the continued survival of altruism in spite of human selfishness, social antagonisms, industrial greeds, and political maladjustments.

11. Steadfastly adheres to a sublime belief in universe unity and divine guidance regardless of the perplexing presence of evil and sin.

12. Goes right on worshiping God in spite of anything and everything. Dares to declare, “Even though he slay me, yet will I serve him.”

We know, then, by three phenomena, that man has a divine spirit or spirits dwelling within him: first, by personal experience — religious faith; second, by revelation — personal and racial; and third, by the amazing exhibition of such extraordinary and unnatural reactions to his material environment as are illustrated by the foregoing recital of twelve spiritlike performances in the presence of the actual and trying situations of real human existence. And there are still others." UB 1955
 
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True Scotsman

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The consciousness of God is observable in the faith life of religious people. God is knowable for those who seek him. You hide behind the logic defense, intellectualism.

Laughing. Yes it's that pesky logic again. Thanks for the compliment.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Of coarse you feel that way, you left God and now work to discredit those who are loyal to him.

Time and space, the material universe, is a post eternal Paradise creation of God.

"Mankind is slow to perceive that, in all that is personal, matter is the skeleton of morontia, and that both are the reflected shadow of enduring spirit reality. How long before you will regard time as the moving image of eternity and space as the fleeting shadow of Paradise realities?"UB 1955​

Colter, instead of constantly reproducing material from the Urantia Book as your response, could you instead respond for yourself? I could reply to your quote by quoting someone else who says something contrary to what the Urantia Book says. You may then reply with another quote from that book, and I with another quote from another source disputing it, and so on. However, this isn't conducive to a meaningful exchange of ideas. We'd just be throwing quotes at each other. To be honest, I don't even read your quotes from the Urantia Book; I doubt that many people do. I'm more interested in what you have to say, and the reasoning you give to support your ideas.
 
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variant

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I don't see why "Nothing" would have to have a positive existence in order to be discussed. Why can't one simply say that the term "Nothing" is merely a linguistic placeholder for a non-entity?


eudaimonia,

Mark

We can definitely discuss any number of things in the abstract that lack real counterparts other than logical extrapolation into absurdity.
 
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Colter

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Colter, instead of constantly reproducing material from the Urantia Book as your response, could you instead respond for yourself? I could reply to your quote by quoting someone else who says something contrary to what the Urantia Book says. You may then reply with another quote from that book, and I with another quote from another source disputing it, and so on. However, this isn't conducive to a meaningful exchange of ideas. We'd just be throwing quotes at each other. To be honest, I don't even read your quotes from the Urantia Book; I doubt that many people do. I'm more interested in what you have to say, and the reasoning you give to support your ideas.

Im not at all surprised that you don't read my quotes and that similarly insincere people would be just as self deceived. I quote the UB because it says it better than I could rephrase the philosophical explanation or truths therein. If you were even more honest with yourself in your confession that you don't actually read my replays, you would discover that your mind is already made up and you don't really want to discover an answer that might go contrary to your unbelief. Your questions then are phony, your participation is phony. You don't really want to know what I think, your request that I must put an answer in my words is an insincere excuse to avoid real truth seeking. Your claim that you want to know what I think is bunk!
 
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