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Why is there sin in churches?-Church Discipline

LinkH

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Do you ever see something in the Bible and think, "Wow, that is important and it seems like most churches completely ignore that." I heard a speaker talking recently about how different much of our church experience is from what we see in the Bible. One thing I thought of was this.

There are three principles in the Bible that are largely ignored.

1. We are morally required to rebuke, correct, and restore our brothers who sin.
2. If a brother refuses to repent after being confronted by one, then two or three, the church is supposed to gather and try to correct that person.
3. If we don't do this, then God's judgment falls on the congregation.
4. Leaders who ignore this will have to give an account.


Rebuking and Restoring

Leviticus says not to despise your neighbor in your heart, but rebuke your neighbor frankly so that you do not share in his sin.

Isn't that an interesting and frightening concept. You can share in someone's sin by not rebuking that person. Hebrews 12 tells us to look diligently among ourselves lest there be a fornicator or profane person such as Esau, who for one morsel of meat forsake his birthright. We are to watch out for one another lest a root of bitterness spring up and many be defiled. We are to strengthen the hands that hang down and the feeble knees.

James ends with an exhortation to restore the one who errs from the truth.

Galatians 6 instructs those who are spiritual to go to the one overtaken in a fault and restore him in a spirit of meekness, knowing that they also may be tempted.

Everyone in the church needs to be involved in this. We are to encourage one another to love and to do good works, and we are to correct one another when we sin. We are to confess our faults to one another and pray one for another. Enough with the "Jesus and Me" Christianity. God doesn't just want you to have a personal relationship with Jesus. He wants a body that has a relationship with His Son.

Expelling the Immoral
There are instructions in Matthew 18 about what to do when one person sins against another. The offended party confronts the other one. If he won't repent, go and get one or two more (to serve as witnesses before the church which will serve as a court.) If he won't repent, bring him before the church.

Then he is to have a chance to hear the church, the congregation, not just the pastor. If he won't repent, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. Paul added to our understanding of this with his teaching about delivering the man over to Satan. This is something done to those who are called brothers who are unrepentant. It is done when the church is gathered, just as we read in Matthew 18.

What happens if a church doesn't do this? Then there are consequences. I Corinthians 5 shows us that the leaven of sin spreads. We are one bread. We are one lump of dough.

We are one bread because we partake of that one bread when we eat communion (I Corinthians 10.) I Corinthians 5 calls us one lump of dough. We should not eat with the fornicator who calls himself a brother.

We should be careful who we eat communion with. Jude and II Peter warn about false brothers and false teachers, men who are 'spots and blemishes' on believers' love feasts, men who promise liberty, but are servants of corruption who find others to corrupt. 'Spots and blemishes' are the things that made a Passover sacrifice, or any sacrifice of a lamb unacceptable. Christ was the Lamb without spot or blemish according to Peter. When we participate in the Lord's Supper and remember Christ's Passover sacrifice, there should be no spot or blemish among us.

Paul teaches Timothy that the vessel of honor must separate himself from the vessels of dishonor. The vessels of dishonor were men who taught vain and profane things, like those men in the passage who were teaching that the resurrection had already occurred. The passage apparently refers to Korah's rebellion. Moses told the people to withdraw from those wicked men. The ground opened up and swallowed them. We need to withdraw from the wicked men if we want to escape God's judgment.

God's Judgment on the Congregation
Israel had a thief among them, a man who had stolen a robe, silver, and gold that belong to the Lord, the spoils of the battle of Jericho. Israel did not even know about Achan's crime. No doubt only he and his family knew as they managed to hide these treasures in their tent.

But God knew, and even though Israel did not know, He still held them accountable. (Notice we are to look diligently among ourselves for the profane person or fornicator.) When Israel went to fight against Ai, 3000 men died.

Now when we send men to war, if our soldiers die, we might think this is normal, but Joshua didn't. For one thing, how did this podunk city defeat his army? Much more importantly, what about God's promises that Israel would win? If Israel followed the Lord, they were supposed to win. No doubt, Joshua didn't see any idols in the camp. He tried to keep a clean house. But he inquired of the Lord and found out that someone had sinned. They gathered and the lot fell for Achan, and he confessed. They stoned the man, and God's wrath lifted from the congregation.

Notice that Achan had sinned, but 3000 other men died in battle. The whole camp was guilty for harboring sin. Israel seemed to understand this concept somewhat when they attacked Benjamin for harboring and protecting wicked men who raped a concubine to death.

The church is supposed to judge and expel the wicked man called a brother. When the Corinthian church committed sin by not properly regarding the poor while they ate the Lord's Supper, they came under God's judgment. It was God's chastisement on them, that they might not be condemned with the world. But because of their sin, there were sick among them, and some had fallen asleep.

Those are some consequences-- sickness and physical death. Do we have any Achans among us? What about Hymenauses, Alexanders, or Philetuses?


Leaders Must Give an Account

Hebrews 13 tells us that church leaders must give an account for the souls of those they lead. That is a terrifying thought. This verse doesn't specifically mention church discipline issues, but it is one of many issues that church leaders must deal with. As leaders, they must lead in restoring people who fall, and in teaching others to do the same.

Is it any wonder that surveys show no statistical difference between evangelical churches and the world on various metrics like teen pregnancy, divorce and remarriage, and other issues. Some people may come to the church after committing sin, and find forgiveness. That may explain part of it. And some people are victims. But I think another part of the problem is that so many churches tolerate sin, and the leaven of sin spreads.

What are you going to do about it?
 

Gnarwhal

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At the end of the day, we're still flawed human beings. We're reborn in Christ and our goal should be to pursue a Christ-life existence, but we're going to continue to fall short. That's why there's grace.

I've been listening to Mars Hill's series in Ecclesiastes, I thought it was pretty profound their exegesis on Ecclesiastes 1 (the author continually repeats how so many things are meaningless), the point is that when we acknowledge that X, Y and Z may never look a certain way, then true growth comes in.

How is this relevant? Well, we should always strive, individually and corporately for Christ-like perfection, but we should be careful with our actions and reactions when it comes to our thoughts and opinions about individuals and groups that may be struggling, or not falling in line with "our way".
 
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Dorothea

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Churches are full of broken human beings. None of us is perfect, but we work toward being perfected in Him. The Church is a hospital for the sick - souls that need nourishment from Him. Christ is the physician for our souls.
 
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katherine2001

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It is much easier to see other people's sins than it is to see our own. With all due respect, Satan can use that to keep us from looking at our own sins. As Christ said, we are often trying to take a speck out of someone else's eye when we have a beam in our own eye that we need to attend to.

I think it is better to let the priest or pastor do what you outline above.
 
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JayJay77

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from LinkH:
Everyone in the church needs to be involved in this.

I humbly disagree.

This is how church gossip can become hurtful and devastating. Not everyone needs to know about the affair that's going on between so and so, or how many different drugs so and so is doing. If the clergy (priests, elders, pastors,etc) know, that's enough.

I do agree that something should be addressed . . . but not openly. Not yet, anyway. An open-cogregation intervention rarely brings someone to repentance: instead, to humility and embarrassment, and ulitimately resentment and anger. And then their damnation would also be on your hands (if you could have handled things differently).

Being in church leadership can be very difficult in this regard.

But know this: sheep are dumb animals. Very often, they get it wrong. Correction is a delicate procedure.
 
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Fireinfolding

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One must wonder how Paul heard of the man who had his fathers wife, unless it was God gossipping in his ear (not another)

I mean Paul did say he heard alot, it had to be from someone, when he heard he corrected it or at least told them in various places what they ought to have done in a certain situation.
 
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LinkH

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I humbly disagree.

This is how church gossip can become hurtful and devastating. Not everyone needs to know about the affair that's going on between so and so, or how many different drugs so and so is doing. If the clergy (priests, elders, pastors,etc) know, that's enough.

I do agree that something should be addressed . . . but not openly. Not yet, anyway. An open-cogregation intervention rarely brings someone to repentance: instead, to humility and embarrassment, and ulitimately resentment and anger. And then their damnation would also be on your hands (if you could have handled things differently).

Being in church leadership can be very difficult in this regard.

But know this: sheep are dumb animals. Very often, they get it wrong. Correction is a delicate procedure.

I am not saying everyone has to be in on every bit of correction in the church. What I am saying is that every believer should be encouraging every other believer and if the need arises, to correct one another and pray with people who have sinned.

Not everyone in the church needs to be in on a sin unless it goes to the stage where it has to be taken to the church with two or three witnesses, and the offender must hear the church.
 
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supersoldier71

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I agree, for the most part with everything said here. However, the are some instances, some events for which I believe the proper response is to remove the person from the fellowship. Unrepentant, repeated sins for example. The serial philanderer, for example, or more correctly, the unrepentant serial philanderer. The person who espouses views contrary to Scripture is another example.

I am NOT saying that these people cannot come into (back into) the fold: far from it. What I am saying is that at the place where they are, still lost in their own sins, they represent a threat to the integrity of the church body, and should probably be removed.

Again, we must still love them, as we are called to love all, but a person who exhibits those characteristics is NOT part of the Body of Christ, and as such, should be excluded from corporate worship.
 
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katherine2001

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I humbly disagree.

This is how church gossip can become hurtful and devastating. Not everyone needs to know about the affair that's going on between so and so, or how many different drugs so and so is doing. If the clergy (priests, elders, pastors,etc) know, that's enough.

I do agree that something should be addressed . . . but not openly. Not yet, anyway. An open-cogregation intervention rarely brings someone to repentance: instead, to humility and embarrassment, and ulitimately resentment and anger. And then their damnation would also be on your hands (if you could have handled things differently).

Being in church leadership can be very difficult in this regard.

But know this: sheep are dumb animals. Very often, they get it wrong. Correction is a delicate procedure.

:thumbsup:
 
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katherine2001

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By the way, a bishop on Facebook shared this link to a blog post that posts something written by an Elder Paisius of Mount Athos in Greece. An Elder is a very holy man and is the spiritual father to the monks in his monastery and to other people who may regularly visit the monastery. Read what he has to say about the topic here:

On Discernment & Fanaticism « Milk & Honey

In the EO, everybody has a spiritual father (for most of us it will be our priest, but it could be a monk or elder at a monastery also), who we tell everything to (especially our sins and weaknesses). Discernment is very important, because each person is different, and what is a great approach with one person will be totally the wrong approach with another. The wrong approach can do more harm than good. A person has to have the discernment to know what is going to be the correct way to approach the matter with the person. The church fathers have written a lot about how important it is to choose the right way to deal with each particular person that you are dealing with so that you don't damage the person, but help them instead. In other words, you have to know the person and have a relationship with that person. It would be better if you know something to tell the priest/pastor and let him deal with it.
 
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