Why is There Death and Suffering if God is all Loving

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Your argument doesn't look well-thought out to me. If we experienced evil in this life, we will know what it is like in the next, and be that much more committed against it. If you are of that camp that believes we won't remember this life, I can see where you are coming from. But "wipe away every tear" doesn't mean wiping away memory.

You asked the question in a Christians Only forum, which gives me the right to answer it. But if you are not interested in where in the scripture I get my conclusions, that's your business. But I can see a hostility in your response, so if your attitude doesn't change, then this is where our paths diverge.
TD

I was thinking the same of yours. But once more i care not to point holes in christian arguments defending God. But i am sure atheist would be glad to for you if your are interested.


I never said we dont have memory, I said to know or remember what evil is is not needed nor biblical to know god or what is good.

 

[martymonster]

It's all part of God's plan to make man in God's image.
The first step to becoming like God, is to have a knowledge of good and evil, unfortunately, that also means death.


Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:


Ecc 3:10 I have seen the travail that God hath given to the sons of man to be humbled by it.



Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

 

[NW82]

Simple answer is we live in a broken and fallen creation due to sin.

 

[Toro]

There is suffering because of mans free will, not because God wants suffering.

Because Adam sinned, because you sin, because I sin suffering exists.

Adam's choice was a single sin.... however we, being born of the flesh of Adam, our sin nature means that we too would choose to "eat the apple" the same sin that Adam chose above God.

How do we know this? Because we all are guilty of sin. There are an abundance of sins to fall into today.. but our flesh is the same flesh that couldnt keep one and ONLY one command. "Do not eat of that tree"

So we cant blame Adam for the state of the world as our very flesh nature dictates that we too would have chosen as Adam did. So while we may look at it as Adam was a fool to have "ate the apple" do we say the same of ourselves because we:
* Looked at a man/woman with lust, even at a glance that is not our husband/wife. Which is the equivalent to adultery in the heart.

* Gotten angry with a fellow human being over... ANYTHING.. which Jesus says is the equivalent to murder in the heart.

* Been prideful/arrogant for any reason.

Etc. If we in our flesh without the Spirit are helpless against these things then it is proof that we would not have resisted the forbidden fruit any better than Adam.

It is because of that choice that pandora box was opened so to speak and why sin and suffering came into the world... through the choice of humanity's free will.

Why put a forbidden tree in the garden?
How do you truly have free will or a choice if there is no "door number 2"?

 

[tdidymas]

I was thinking the same of yours. But once more i care not to point holes in christian arguments defending God. But i am sure atheist would be glad to for you if your are interested.


I never said we dont have memory, I said to know or remember what evil is is not needed nor biblical to know god or what is good.

You may not know where the Bible shows it, doesn't mean it's not there. But since you're not interested, no need to say.
TD

 

[martymonster]

The bible says God originally created a perfect world with no death, sin, disease or suffering. People did not kill each other and animals did not kill each other- man and animals were vegetarian. However god created a world with free will. He wanted mankind to chose to love and obey him rather than be obedient robots. With free will comes the chance for sin, the first man Adam sinned against god and this sin caused separation from a holy perfect God who cannot dwell near sin. As a result of this separation from god, all the once very good creation know is falling apart. Death and disease are know part of creation and everything is wearing old. God is perfect and cannot be around sin or even look upon sin.

The bible does not actually say that, at all.

 

[martymonster]

Don't know what went wrong there, but anyway. The bible never says that there was no suffering an that animals didn't eat each other, etc, etc.
Can you show me the scriptures for all of this? I bet you can't, because it never says such a thing.

Do you know what sin means? It means, to miss the mark, which is exactly what God did, if this is his plan B. God does not need a plan B.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Don't know what went wrong there, but anyway. The bible never says that there was no suffering an that animals didn't eat each other, etc, etc.
Can you show me the scriptures for all of this? I bet you can't, because it never says such a thing.

Do you know what sin means? It means, to miss the mark, which is exactly what God did, if this is his plan B. God does not need a plan B.

Agreed god did not miss the mark, we did. He is know on a rescue mission and this cursed fallen world is indeed not his original. As for the verse of animals not eating each other. From genesis 1


29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


That is why when the world is remade without sin and the fall, once more animals will not eat each other. From Isiah 11

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
-Isiah 11 6-9



2 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Romans 5


19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain
Romans 8

9 By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”
Genesis 3

 

[martymonster]

Agreed god did not miss the mark, we did. He is know on a rescue mission and this cursed fallen world is indeed not his original. As for the verse of animals not eating each other. From genesis 1


29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


That is why when the world is remade without sin and the fall, once more animals will not eat each other. From Isiah 11

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
-Isiah 11 6-9



2 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Romans 5


19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain
Romans 8

9 By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”
Genesis 3

Nope! God made a flawed creation, which puts the blame for anything that happens, fair and square on him. He actually claims responsibility for everything that happens, it's men that try to remove any responsibility from him.

Also, freewill (which is unscriptural, btw) is not some magic wand that you can wave, to make every theological problem go away. God is responsible for everything, and he says so.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Nope! God made a flawed creation, which puts the blame for anything that happens, fair and square on him. He actually claims responsibility for everything that happens, it's men that try to remove any responsibility from him.

Also, freewill (which is unscriptural, btw) is not some magic wand that you can wave, to make every theological problem go away. God is responsible for everything, and he says so.

When I speak of god I am referring to the God of the bible that begins in Genesis. The God that created a perfect world deathless and sinless as it will be once more. The God of the bible I refer to is only understood by the reading of the bible in full and in context. Therefore your idol of a god [false god] that you worship does not belong on my thread as this is for the one and only true god. That God makes no mistakes, has no flaws, created nothing flawed, and certainly does not take responsibility for evil.

But to me it seems not only have you not read the bible, but you did not read my op. I never said free will [very much biblical] is a magic wond to make every theological problem go away. But a biblical truth that effects [but not the only aspect] why the world has evil and suffering.

 

[martymonster]

When I speak of god I am referring to the God of the bible that begins in Genesis. The God that created a perfect world deathless and sinless as it will be once more. The God of the bible I refer to is only understood by the reading of the bible in full and in context. Therefore your idol of a god [false god] that you worship does not belong on my thread as this is for the one and only true god. That God makes no mistakes, has no flaws, created nothing flawed, and certainly does not take responsibility for evil.

But to me it seems not only have you not read the bible, but you did not read my op. I never said free will [very much biblical] is a magic wond to make every theological problem go away. But a biblical truth that effects [but not the only aspect] why the world has evil and suffering.

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (the lust of the flesh,) and that it was pleasant to the eyes (the lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise, (the pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Firstly, how do you explain that she disobeyed God, if she was sinless, without resorting to freewill? I she was sinless, she would have obeyed God, it's that simple, no way around it. It doesn't matter if you have freewill or not. If yo sin, you are not perfect....period!
Not to mention that God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. All things meaning, ALL THINGS.

Also, can you explain these verses to me, using scripture?

Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.


Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


I'll leave it there, I'm sure you won't be able to address these few using scripture. I could post many many more, that show that God is sovereign and responsible for the evil, as well as the good.

 

[martymonster]

Agreed god did not miss the mark, we did. He is know on a rescue mission and this cursed fallen world is indeed not his original. As for the verse of animals not eating each other. From genesis 1


29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


That is why when the world is remade without sin and the fall, once more animals will not eat each other. From Isiah 11

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
-Isiah 11 6-9



2 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Romans 5


19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain
Romans 8

9 By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”
Genesis 3

Dude, the earth is going to be done away with, it's temporal.

 

[Shempster]

The bible says God originally created a perfect world with no death, sin, disease or suffering. People did not kill each other and animals did not kill each other- man and animals were vegetarian. However god created a world with free will. He wanted mankind to chose to love and obey him rather than be obedient robots. With free will comes the chance for sin, the first man Adam sinned against god and this sin caused separation from a holy perfect God who cannot dwell near sin. As a result of this separation from god, all the once very good creation know is falling apart. Death and disease are know part of creation and everything is wearing old. God is perfect and cannot be around sin or even look upon sin.

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
-Pslam 5,4


Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;
you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.
Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
Why are you silent while the wicked
swallow up those more righteous than themselves?
-Habakkuk 1:13

He has to judge sin because it is imperfect. All suffering and death is a consequence of being separated from god. He judged sin with the curse, not just mankind but creation itself is cursed. The original perfect creation was destroyed by mans sin, Everything bad that happens according to the bible ultimately is caused from separation form god. That is why when Jesus was around he spent time fighting disease and death, the bible says death is the last enemy that will be defeated [Corinthians 15.26]. However as God gave Adam and Eve a free will to chose. God gave us free will to accept or deny him and we chose to deny.

but your iniquities have made a separation
between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
so that he does not hear.
-Isiah 59.2

God could have made us all perfect and pray all day always do the right thing, but that's not love. God wants us to chose to follow him out of love, which only comes with free will. Only when god is in full control, when his will is done, there will be no more wars or disease and only peace. We also have free will to make choices that have consequences that can add to the evils and misery of the world. If I get drunk and crash my car and it kills another driver, that evil and suffering was a result of my own choice, not of gods doing. We all have free will, that's why we pray “your [Gods] will be done on earth as it is in heaven” [Matt 6 .10]. What this world is like and what God intends are two very different things. Gods will is not done here [often] ours is. God gave us stewardship of the earth.

In a fallen world bad things happen for no other reason than that we live in a fallen imperfect world. When people asked Jesus if the 13 builders in Jerusalem that died was because they sinned. Jesus said no, sometimes bad things happen to good people, the whole creation is under this. So the bible teaches a original perfect creation free of death and suffering as god created it. until sin and separation from him resulted from man's sin.

It is no Longer Gods Creation

“Enemy-occupied territory---that is what this world is. Christianity is the story of how the rightful king has landed, you might say landed in disguise, and is calling us to take part in a great campaign of sabotage.”
— C.S. Lewis

God originally dwelt and walked with man in the Garden of Eden in a perfect sinless world before the fall. God also gave the earth to Adam to be a steward of earth [psalm 8.6 Gen 1 26-28]. Adam sinned and caused the fall and separation from God, he handed creation over to sin. This current world we live in is no longer gods creation. Jesus calls the devil the prince and ruler of this world, in John 18.36 Jesus says I am not of this world.

Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
-Matthew chapter 4 8-9

9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
-Matthew 6 9-10

16 The highest heavens belong to the LORD,
but the earth he has given to man.
-Proverbs 18 -17

“whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.”
- 2 Corinthians 4.4


Gods Judgment of Sin/ Is Death a Just Punishment for sin?

God has to judge sin to be just. If he allowed us to do whatever sin we wanted there would never be a heaven or paradise, it would really be no different than it is now. To live eternally in today's fallen world would in some ways be a form of eternal hell. What of people who are tortured? Would they prefer an eternal life here on earth? What of those with diseases? What if Hitler and the Nazis could live eternally? If there were no heaven or hell, than there would be no eternal consequences for any individual and mankind could act in any way they wanted. It would turn into a hell on earth. Mankind would live eternally separated from god on earth. That is in part why when believers die it is precious in the lords sight [psalm 116.15] because they enter into a true relationship with him with no sin or separation. Also when believers die they are taken from an evil [fallen] world.

The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil.
-Isaiah. 57:1

There would be no punishment and separation from god, if we did not sin.

8 Then the word of the LORD came to Zechariah, saying, 9 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
Execute true justice,
Show mercy and compassion
Everyone to his brother.
10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless,
The alien or the poor.
Let none of you plan evil in his heart
Against his brother.’
-Zechariah 7 8-10

8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly[a] with your God.
-Micah 6.8

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law
-Galatians 5 22-23

What it Will be Like When God is in Full Control- Restoring the Garden of Eden

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”
-Revelations 21 1-5

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
-Isiah 11 6-9

he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.
-Isiah 25.8

1 The vision that Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
2 In the last days
he mountain of the LORD's house will be established
at the top of the mountains
and will be raised above the hills.
All nations will stream to it,
3 and many peoples will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us about His ways
so that we may walk in His paths."
For instruction will go out of Zion
and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4 He will settle disputes among the nations
and provide arbitration for many peoples.
They will turn their swords into plows
and their spears into pruning knives.
Nations will not take up the sword against [other] nations,
and they will never again train for war.
-Isaiah 2 1-4


The Solution/ The Gospel

“I could never myself believe in God, if it were not for the cross. The only God I believe in is the One Nietzsche ridiculed as “God on the cross.” In the real world of pain, how could one worship a God who was immune to it? I have entered many Buddhist temples in different Asian countries and stood respectfully before the statue of the Buddha, his legs crossed, arms folded, eyes closed, the ghost of a smile playing round his mouth, a remote look on his face, detached from the agonies of the world. But each time after a while I have had to turn away. And in imagination I have turned instead to that lonely, twisted, tortured figure on the cross, nails through hands and feet, back lacerated, limbs wrenched, brow bleeding from thorn-pricks, mouth dry and intolerably thirsty, plunged in Godforsaken darkness. That is the God for me! He laid aside his immunity to pain. He entered our world of flesh and blood, tears and death. He suffered for us. Our sufferings become more manageable in the light of his. There is still a question mark against human suffering, but over it we boldly stamp another mark, the cross that symbolizes divine suffering. ”The cross of Christ . . . is God’s only self-justification in such a world” as ours. . . . “The other gods were strong; but thou wast weak; they rode, but thou didst stumble to a throne; But to our wounds only God’s wounds can speak, And not a god has wounds, but thou alone.”
-John Stott, The Cross of Christ

The solution to death and suffering is why Jesus was sent as a perfect sinless sacrifice to cover the sins of man, by putting there faith in him. It is the only way for a perfect, sinless, all loving God, to save a sinful people and remain just. Picture God as a judge [he is] and he is a all loving and forgiving judge, but also a perfect holy judge [Ex 34 6-7]. If God is just, loving and forgiving, and truly hates sin [as a all loving just god would] than he cannot allow any sin to go unpunished he must judge all sin or he is not all just or a fair judge. Since all mankind is sinful.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
-Romans 3.23

How can we make up for our own sin? how could we not face punishment? and separation from god. That is when an all loving God came into history, and his creation, and died as a willing sacrifice to take the just punishment we deserved on himself. So he can spend an eternity with his creation whom he loves and still be all just.

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
-Isiah 53 5-6

24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
-1 peter 2. 24

So we are justified freely and eternal life is a gift from God given to all mankind [Romans 3 9-11 6.23]. So all we need to do is accept the perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, and we are cleansed of our sin and forgiven by god. God does not one person to be sent to hell.

The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance
-2Pet. 3.9

He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"
-1Tim. 2.4

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?
-Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11

of course there will be many who are turning away from God that will see this as foolishness

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
-1 Corinthians 1.18

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him
-1 Corinthians 2 .14

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
-psalm 14.1


Does God sit Around and Allow Evil to Happen?

If god was on earth in control he would judge us and punish us. Over and over read [exodus Leviticus] God says do not come near me for I am holy and separate from sin lest you die. He does not want to judge us but forgive us, but he is a fully just god who if is all loving perfect and hates sin than he must judge.

proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished
-exodus 34 6-7

“If humans have free will, that has to include the real potential of evil. If God simply 'poofed' away any evil decisions or their consequences, that would effectively mean that humans don't have meaningful choice.Second, it is incredibly presumptuous to expect God to intervene every time *humans* screw up. Why don't the atheists spend half as much time criticizing the humans who create these atrocities as shaking their fist at a God who they don't even believe in? Third, God has done something about evil; He sent Jesus. There is a solution to the problem of evil, just not an *immediate* one (an *immediate* solution would have killed Adam and Eve instantly, thus ending the human race, and all speculation about the problem of evil)....So, how could a loving God just sit back and allow all the death and suffering in this world? This question assumes that God hasn’t done anything. In fact, God has done a lot already to solve the problem of evil, and He has promised to do more in the future. If God had immediately judged all of humanity and gotten rid of the evil rebellion that causes death and suffering today, Adam and Eve would have died instantly, and none of us would be around to complain about God delaying judgment and allowing bad things to happen. Second, the death and suffering that goes on in this life is a powerful reminder that something is wrong with creation, and more than that, something is wrong with the human heart and our relationship to God. Suffering often points people to Christ, who is God’s ultimate answer to the problem of evil.”
-Shane Cessna Is it Gods Fault


“If God followed this type of “logic,” then we would live in a bizarre world. Should He temporarily suspend gravity when a person attempts to commit suicide by leaping from a high place, or must He prevent car crashes through any means necessary? Let’s take this a step further. Maybe He should prevent any harm to any person. Perhaps He should suspend gravity whenever a little girl is about to fall down so that she doesn’t scrape up her knee. Should He prevent us from eating food that may not be entirely healthy? This type of thinking quickly removes any semblance of freedom we may have.If people followed this type of “logic,” then we would outlaw all sports, driving, or any other activity that involves the risk of dying or getting hurt. People would never have children knowing their kids would grow up and eventually die. No one would get a pet because the pet might scratch a family member—or worse, that pet will eventually die, and some pets would give birth to other animals, which would also eventually die. I’m thankful that God doesn’t play by these rules. While there are times that I tend to wish He would have prevented me from doing certain things (namely, the times I’ve sinned against Him or the times I’ve hurt others), I realize that He is able to use those things or their consequences for good (Romans 8:28).
-Tim Chaffey Answers in Genesis

Just an observation...
the way you lay this all out sounds as if God did not know that man would fall. Like he had a great plan, but goofed up by allowing man access to a forbidden tree, then allowing the serpent in.

This is a really difficult thing to grasp, but it is not logical to think that God did not know the future (considering the horrid history of the world)
The scenario appears as an intentional set-up. But why?

......that is the question....

 

[martymonster]

Just an observation...
the way you lay this all out sounds as if God did not know that man would fall. Like he had a great plan, but goofed up by allowing man access to a forbidden tree, then allowing the serpent in.

This is a really difficult thing to grasp, but it is not logical to think that God did not know the future (considering the horrid history of the world)
The scenario appears as an intentional set-up. But why?

......that is the question....

Definitely a setup, and here's why. When it first occurred to me that this was a done deal, I asked God why? and this is was his answer.



Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Dude, the earth is going to be done away with, it's temporal.

agreed.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Just an observation...
the way you lay this all out sounds as if God did not know that man would fall. Like he had a great plan, but goofed up by allowing man access to a forbidden tree, then allowing the serpent in.

This is a really difficult thing to grasp, but it is not logical to think that God did not know the future (considering the horrid history of the world)
The scenario appears as an intentional set-up. But why?

......that is the question....

apologizes if i suggested that anywhere that is not the case. God had his original intention and design that he allowed man to mess up yes. He new it would happen i agree. But that does not make it his design. I will allow my child to ride a bike knowing they will fall and get hurt, that is not my hope or intention but I do allow it.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (the lust of the flesh,) and that it was pleasant to the eyes (the lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise, (the pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Firstly, how do you explain that she disobeyed God, if she was sinless, without resorting to freewill? I she was sinless, she would have obeyed God, it's that simple, no way around it. It doesn't matter if you have freewill or not. If yo sin, you are not perfect....period!

I think you have misunderstood my stance. I do believe free will is biblical. I do believe eve was sinless as sin had not yet entered the world. But with free will she had the potential to sin as did Adam. And her adam and everyone since has sinned and we are fallen living in a cursed world.

Not to mention that God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. All things meaning, ALL THINGS.

could you site the verse and translation? but that God uses circumstance [fallen world] for his purposes and will [Jesus on cross for example] i dont disagree. Nor that he will do his will [such as allow man to fall].

Also, can you explain these verses to me, using scripture?

Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.


Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


I'll leave it there, I'm sure you won't be able to address these few using scripture. I could post many many more, that show that God is sovereign and responsible for the evil, as well as the good.

I will address these on my upcoming thread on Calvinism. It is clear by what you site you have never been given the Armenian understanding and I look forward to the discussion. You hit many of the most common [romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 most used] to support Calvinism. I would suggest any book from the non Calvinist perspective on the subject will cover those verses or any debate. I will be glad to link you to a debate [free online] or book if you wish on those subjects but I prefer to not get into Calvinism on a thread that is not specified for it.

 

[~Zao~]

God allows testing to be a means of growth for all people. Those who do not learn from their mistakes are bound to repeat them, falling short of the mark again and again.

 

[martymonster]

I think you have misunderstood my stance. I do believe free will is biblical. I do believe eve was sinless as sin had not yet entered the world. But with free will she had the potential to sin as did Adam. And her adam and everyone since has sinned and we are fallen living in a cursed world.






could you site the verse and translation? but that God uses circumstance [fallen world] for his purposes and will [Jesus on cross for example] i dont disagree. Nor that he will do his will [such as allow man to fall].





I will address these on my upcoming thread on Calvinism. It is clear by what you site you have never been given the Armenian understanding and I look forward to the discussion. You hit many of the most common [romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 most used] to support Calvinism. I would suggest any book from the non Calvinist perspective on the subject will cover those verses or any debate. I will be glad to link you to a debate [free online] or book if you wish on those subjects but I prefer to not get into Calvinism on a thread that is not specified for it.

I'm definitely not a Calvinist, and I don't adhere to any labels of men.

 

[Hawkins]

"All loving" itself sometimes is a misconception. Love always refers to a subject to apply. Your mother's love can be unconditional but for you and you only. You are the subject of your mother's unconditional love. It's thus a misconception to apply an absolute upon "your mother's love is unconditional" to mean that you mother loves everyone alike including those who are trying murder her son.

A Shepherd is all loving but to His sheep and His sheep only. An all loving Shepherd by no means says He should love the wolves, who all the times try to victimize His sheep, the same as His sheep. It may the very opposite that He may have to kill all the wolves to protect His sheep at all cost, that's the showing of His all loving to His sheep.

That said. Christians are told that we do not belong to this world. We are the sheep scattered in the wilderness where the wolves are seeking preys.

1 Peter 5:8 (KJV)
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: