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Featured Why is There Death and Suffering if God is all Loving

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tolkien R.R.J, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    The bible says God originally created a perfect world with no death, sin, disease or suffering. People did not kill each other and animals did not kill each other- man and animals were vegetarian. However god created a world with free will. He wanted mankind to chose to love and obey him rather than be obedient robots. With free will comes the chance for sin, the first man Adam sinned against god and this sin caused separation from a holy perfect God who cannot dwell near sin. As a result of this separation from god, all the once very good creation know is falling apart. Death and disease are know part of creation and everything is wearing old. God is perfect and cannot be around sin or even look upon sin.

    For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
    Nor shall evil dwell with You.
    -Pslam 5,4



    Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;
    you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.
    Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
    Why are you silent while the wicked
    swallow up those more righteous than themselves?

    -Habakkuk 1:13

    He has to judge sin because it is imperfect. All suffering and death is a consequence of being separated from god. He judged sin with the curse, not just mankind but creation itself is cursed. The original perfect creation was destroyed by mans sin, Everything bad that happens according to the bible ultimately is caused from separation form god. That is why when Jesus was around he spent time fighting disease and death, the bible says death is the last enemy that will be defeated [Corinthians 15.26]. However as God gave Adam and Eve a free will to chose. God gave us free will to accept or deny him and we chose to deny.

    but your iniquities have made a separation
    between you and your God,

    and your sins have hidden his face from you
    so that he does not hear.
    -Isiah 59.2


    God could have made us all perfect and pray all day always do the right thing, but that's not love. God wants us to chose to follow him out of love, which only comes with free will. Only when god is in full control, when his will is done, there will be no more wars or disease and only peace. We also have free will to make choices that have consequences that can add to the evils and misery of the world. If I get drunk and crash my car and it kills another driver, that evil and suffering was a result of my own choice, not of gods doing. We all have free will, that's why we pray “your [Gods] will be done on earth as it is in heaven” [Matt 6 .10]. What this world is like and what God intends are two very different things. Gods will is not done here [often] ours is. God gave us stewardship of the earth.

    In a fallen world bad things happen for no other reason than that we live in a fallen imperfect world. When people asked Jesus if the 13 builders in Jerusalem that died was because they sinned. Jesus said no, sometimes bad things happen to good people, the whole creation is under this. So the bible teaches a original perfect creation free of death and suffering as god created it. until sin and separation from him resulted from man's sin.

    It is no Longer Gods Creation

    Enemy-occupied territory---that is what this world is. Christianity is the story of how the rightful king has landed, you might say landed in disguise, and is calling us to take part in a great campaign of sabotage.”
    — C.S. Lewis


    God originally dwelt and walked with man in the Garden of Eden in a perfect sinless world before the fall. God also gave the earth to Adam to be a steward of earth [psalm 8.6 Gen 1 26-28]. Adam sinned and caused the fall and separation from God, he handed creation over to sin. This current world we live in is no longer gods creation. Jesus calls the devil the prince and ruler of this world, in John 18.36 Jesus says I am not of this world.

    Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
    -Matthew chapter 4 8-9


    9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
    Our Father in heaven,
    Hallowed be Your name.
    10 Your kingdom come.
    Your will be done
    On earth as it is in heaven.
    -Matthew 6 9-10


    16 The highest heavens belong to the LORD,
    but the earth he has given to man.
    -Proverbs 18 -17


    whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.”
    - 2 Corinthians 4.4



    Gods Judgment of Sin/ Is Death a Just Punishment for sin?

    God has to judge sin to be just. If he allowed us to do whatever sin we wanted there would never be a heaven or paradise, it would really be no different than it is now. To live eternally in today's fallen world would in some ways be a form of eternal hell. What of people who are tortured? Would they prefer an eternal life here on earth? What of those with diseases? What if Hitler and the Nazis could live eternally? If there were no heaven or hell, than there would be no eternal consequences for any individual and mankind could act in any way they wanted. It would turn into a hell on earth. Mankind would live eternally separated from god on earth. That is in part why when believers die it is precious in the lords sight [psalm 116.15] because they enter into a true relationship with him with no sin or separation. Also when believers die they are taken from an evil [fallen] world.

    The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil.
    -Isaiah. 57:1


    There would be no punishment and separation from god, if we did not sin.

    8 Then the word of the LORD came to Zechariah, saying, 9 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
    Execute true justice,
    Show mercy and compassion
    Everyone to his brother.
    10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless,
    The alien or the poor.
    Let none of you plan evil in his heart
    Against his brother.’
    -Zechariah 7 8-10


    8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
    And what does the LORD require of you?
    To act justly and to love mercy
    and to walk humbly[a] with your God.
    -Micah 6.8


    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law
    -Galatians 5 22-23


    What it Will be Like When God is in Full Control- Restoring the Garden of Eden

    1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
    5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”
    -Revelations 21 1-5


    The wolf will live with the lamb,
    the leopard will lie down with the goat,
    the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
    and a little child will lead them.
    7 The cow will feed with the bear,
    their young will lie down together,
    and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
    8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
    the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
    9 They will neither harm nor destroy
    on all my holy mountain,
    for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
    -Isiah 11 6-9


    he will swallow up death forever.
    The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
    from all faces;
    he will remove his people’s disgrace
    from all the earth.
    The Lord has spoken.
    -Isiah 25.8


    1 The vision that Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
    2 In the last days
    he mountain of the LORD's house will be established
    at the top of the mountains
    and will be raised above the hills.
    All nations will stream to it,
    3 and many peoples will come and say,
    "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
    to the house of the God of Jacob.
    He will teach us about His ways
    so that we may walk in His paths."
    For instruction will go out of Zion
    and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.


    4 He will settle disputes among the nations
    and provide arbitration for many peoples.
    They will turn their swords into plows
    and their spears into pruning knives.
    Nations will not take up the sword against [other] nations,
    and they will never again train for war.
    -Isaiah 2 1-4



    The Solution/ The Gospel

    I could never myself believe in God, if it were not for the cross. The only God I believe in is the One Nietzsche ridiculed as “God on the cross.” In the real world of pain, how could one worship a God who was immune to it? I have entered many Buddhist temples in different Asian countries and stood respectfully before the statue of the Buddha, his legs crossed, arms folded, eyes closed, the ghost of a smile playing round his mouth, a remote look on his face, detached from the agonies of the world. But each time after a while I have had to turn away. And in imagination I have turned instead to that lonely, twisted, tortured figure on the cross, nails through hands and feet, back lacerated, limbs wrenched, brow bleeding from thorn-pricks, mouth dry and intolerably thirsty, plunged in Godforsaken darkness. That is the God for me! He laid aside his immunity to pain. He entered our world of flesh and blood, tears and death. He suffered for us. Our sufferings become more manageable in the light of his. There is still a question mark against human suffering, but over it we boldly stamp another mark, the cross that symbolizes divine suffering. ”The cross of Christ . . . is God’s only self-justification in such a world” as ours. . . . “The other gods were strong; but thou wast weak; they rode, but thou didst stumble to a throne; But to our wounds only God’s wounds can speak, And not a god has wounds, but thou alone.”
    -John Stott, The Cross of Christ


    The solution to death and suffering is why Jesus was sent as a perfect sinless sacrifice to cover the sins of man, by putting there faith in him. It is the only way for a perfect, sinless, all loving God, to save a sinful people and remain just. Picture God as a judge [he is] and he is a all loving and forgiving judge, but also a perfect holy judge [Ex 34 6-7]. If God is just, loving and forgiving, and truly hates sin [as a all loving just god would] than he cannot allow any sin to go unpunished he must judge all sin or he is not all just or a fair judge. Since all mankind is sinful.

    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    -Romans 3.23


    How can we make up for our own sin? how could we not face punishment? and separation from god. That is when an all loving God came into history, and his creation, and died as a willing sacrifice to take the just punishment we deserved on himself. So he can spend an eternity with his creation whom he loves and still be all just.

    5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
    He was bruised for our iniquities;
    The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
    And by His stripes we are healed.
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
    We have turned, every one, to his own way;
    And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
    -Isiah 53 5-6


    24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
    -1 peter 2. 24


    So we are justified freely and eternal life is a gift from God given to all mankind [Romans 3 9-11 6.23]. So all we need to do is accept the perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, and we are cleansed of our sin and forgiven by god. God does not one person to be sent to hell.

    The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance
    -2Pet. 3.9


    He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"
    -1Tim. 2.4


    Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?
    -Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11


    of course there will be many who are turning away from God that will see this as foolishness

    18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
    -1 Corinthians 1.18


    But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him
    -1 Corinthians 2 .14


    The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
    -psalm 14.1



    Does God sit Around and Allow Evil to Happen?

    If god was on earth in control he would judge us and punish us. Over and over read [exodus Leviticus] God says do not come near me for I am holy and separate from sin lest you die. He does not want to judge us but forgive us, but he is a fully just god who if is all loving perfect and hates sin than he must judge.

    proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished
    -exodus 34 6-7


    If humans have free will, that has to include the real potential of evil. If God simply 'poofed' away any evil decisions or their consequences, that would effectively mean that humans don't have meaningful choice.Second, it is incredibly presumptuous to expect God to intervene every time *humans* screw up. Why don't the atheists spend half as much time criticizing the humans who create these atrocities as shaking their fist at a God who they don't even believe in? Third, God has done something about evil; He sent Jesus. There is a solution to the problem of evil, just not an *immediate* one (an *immediate* solution would have killed Adam and Eve instantly, thus ending the human race, and all speculation about the problem of evil)....So, how could a loving God just sit back and allow all the death and suffering in this world? This question assumes that God hasn’t done anything. In fact, God has done a lot already to solve the problem of evil, and He has promised to do more in the future. If God had immediately judged all of humanity and gotten rid of the evil rebellion that causes death and suffering today, Adam and Eve would have died instantly, and none of us would be around to complain about God delaying judgment and allowing bad things to happen. Second, the death and suffering that goes on in this life is a powerful reminder that something is wrong with creation, and more than that, something is wrong with the human heart and our relationship to God. Suffering often points people to Christ, who is God’s ultimate answer to the problem of evil.”
    -
    Shane Cessna Is it Gods Fault


    If God followed this type of “logic,” then we would live in a bizarre world. Should He temporarily suspend gravity when a person attempts to commit suicide by leaping from a high place, or must He prevent car crashes through any means necessary? Let’s take this a step further. Maybe He should prevent any harm to any person. Perhaps He should suspend gravity whenever a little girl is about to fall down so that she doesn’t scrape up her knee. Should He prevent us from eating food that may not be entirely healthy? This type of thinking quickly removes any semblance of freedom we may have.If people followed this type of “logic,” then we would outlaw all sports, driving, or any other activity that involves the risk of dying or getting hurt. People would never have children knowing their kids would grow up and eventually die. No one would get a pet because the pet might scratch a family member—or worse, that pet will eventually die, and some pets would give birth to other animals, which would also eventually die. I’m thankful that God doesn’t play by these rules. While there are times that I tend to wish He would have prevented me from doing certain things (namely, the times I’ve sinned against Him or the times I’ve hurt others), I realize that He is able to use those things or their consequences for good (Romans 8:28).
    -Tim Chaffey Answers in Genesis
     
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  2. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My view is that God is allowing us to see/experience the results of disobedience to His will.

    For some/all of us, this may be the only way of converting us to a willingness to follow in His way ...
     
  3. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because we aren't.
     
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  4. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    This is in the Bible.

    This oft-quoted line is not in the Bible.

    That would make it hard for God to have talked to Adam immediately after the fall. It would make all interaction, including his dwelling in the tabernacle, or coming to Earth as Christ impossible.

    Death and sickness is not merely separation from God, as if it were a passive thing. Some of it is the result of genetic degradation or the effect of chance, but the entire aging process, all parasites, viruses and bacteria are the result of design. The entire food chain, which you state did not exist before the fall, is the result of our innate engineering. This was not something left to chance.

    Matthew 11 fairly refutes that. Jesus performed miracles so that all who saw them could know that he was the promised messiah.

    Ergo, when an imperfect fallen man decides to follow God perfectly will there be no more disease and wars. Fallen man cannot do anything perfectly, including giving his life to God. Hence, there will always be disease and wars. You see, unless God steps in and does the very thing that you say he will not do, the solution will always rest upon the very people who cannot but fail. Free will is a message of doom, looking to mankind for deliverance.
     
  5. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is this what you say, or are you quoting someone, please? It is not clear.

    I think it is true that love is freely given or it is not really love. There is self-concerned love which is maybe forced by fear; or it is because of how someone is spoiling somebody else, so the spoiled person loves someone who panders to one's every selfish desire.

    So, yes God does want love because we appreciate Him for Himself, I guess you could explain this.

    But what about free will? Yes, we humans have wills. But how free is the will of a person who is in sin? The Bible says that without Jesus we were "slaves of sin" > Romans 6:17. So - - were our human, created wills truly free, then, while we lived in sin?

    I will offer > our true nature has a lot to do with what we will to do. So, it is not really that God wants us to have a free will, but to have the character to love. And then comes the willing and choosing which comes from the heart.

    But while our heart in sin was deceitful and desperately wicked > Jeremiah 17:9 > it was not our nature to get our own selves to become loving of God.

    "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

    So, the credit . . . the thanks . . . is to God, that we have obeyed Him from our hearts. He changed our hearts, first, I understand, so then we chose to trust in Jesus. And now God still keeps working in our wills so we will and also succeed in doing what He pleases > Philippians 2:13.

    We do not work our own selves to do God's will. We fail because of how we are depending on our own selves to will and do what we suppose He wants. Plus, God's love is more creative than we are; in His love He has us doing better than we might think even moments before we discover what He has us doing.

    So, we are not robots; because we are alive in God's love.

    But in sin we were love-dead robots of Satan's evil spirit "who now works in the sons of disobedience.' (in Ephesians 2:12) We were controlled by Satan. We needed to be turned "from the power of Satan to God," we can see through Acts 26:18. In sin we were in bondage to "fear of death" > Hebrews 2:14-15; so we were not free in our wills to say no to Satan. But we were "slaves of sin" and slaves of fear.

    And it was not our nature to choose God and refuse to give in to fear and its "torment" > 1 John 4:18.

    So, God has changed us so we are not robots because of living in submission to Him, but He made us "alive", we have in Ephesians 2:1.

    So, this might help us understand why our own willing has failed so often and so much. Because we need how God corrects our character to be in His love and leading, so then He has us flowing with Him.

    We can see how we keep giving in to fear and its various torments; we have not gotten our own selves to keep choosing not to give in to fear and worry. Only God is sufficient to change us to succeed and not to keep bleeding; "and you will find rest for your souls," Jesus guarantees in Matthew 11:28-30. As we mature in His love, it is natural to keep refusing fear and its torments; it is not a choice but we have His own immunity in His love almighty. So, we grow in this and discover > 1 John 4:18.
     
  6. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    Calvinist I assume. While yes this is not a line of the bible it is biblical.



    I disagree fully. Who walked in the garden? Jesus.

    Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form,
    Phil 2.7

    Jesus is throughout the OT in human form. Sin is the cause of separation, the tabernacle and the sacrificial system proves that. Nobody can come on holy ground or be in full connection with god while sinners.

    Death and sickness parasites, viruses and bacteria are not part of gods orginal design but part of a fallen world. Perhaps these can help


    Before the Fall Animals/Disease etc

    http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/af/afHYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/af/af0903.pdf"0903HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/af/af0903.pdf".pdf

    origin of predators based on behavior changes

    origin of carnivores poison germs viruses chapter 16 the greatest hoax on earth

    parasite that cause African sleeping syndrome comes from descendant of helpful organism that does not cause disease.

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Molecular-Evidence-for-Creation,HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Molecular-Evidence-for-Creation,5583,190.aspx"5583HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Molecular-Evidence-for-Creation,5583,190.aspx",HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Molecular-Evidence-for-Creation,5583,190.aspx"190HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Molecular-Evidence-for-Creation,5583,190.aspx".aspx

    Immune system

    Does Our Immune System Indicate Disease Before the Fall?

    snake venom

    Snake Venom, Genetic Entropy, and Adam's Curse

    Snake Venom, Genetic Entropy, and Adam's Curse

    How does biblical Christianity explain the origin of poisons and pathogenic bacteria and viruses?

    If the original creation was ‘very good,’ why do many living things have features for attacking others?

    http://creation.com/death-and-suffering-questions-and-answers#da

    viruses help fight cancer

    http://creation.com/creation-magazine-HYPERLINK "http://creation.com/creation-magazine-314-contents"314HYPERLINK "http://creation.com/creation-magazine-314-contents"-contents

    origin of predators based on behavior change

    vegetarian sharks 63% of diet than given 90% and gained weight.

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/meet-world-s-first-salad-eating-shark

    http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/af/afHYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/af/af0903.pdf"0903HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/af/af0903.pdf".pdf

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/vHYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n3/bacteria-good-bad-ugly"2HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n3/bacteria-good-bad-ugly"/nHYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n3/bacteria-good-bad-ugly"3HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n3/bacteria-good-bad-ugly"/bacteria-good-bad-ugly are bacteria bad?

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/vHYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v5/n1/genesis-pathogenic-E-coli"5HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v5/n1/genesis-pathogenic-E-coli"/nHYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v5/n1/genesis-pathogenic-E-coli"1HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v5/n1/genesis-pathogenic-E-coli"/genesis-pathogenic-E-coli origin of e coli

    http://creation.com/snake-carnivory-origin

    snakes

    king cobra with the Burmese python and other vertebrates reveals that the snakes have duplicate copies of lots of genes that ordinarily produce nontoxic products. Biologists think that mutations such as duplication of these “good” genes led to the production of toxins now found in snake venom.

    http://phys.org/news/2013-12-rapid-evolution-cobra-venom.html

    http://creation.com/vegetarian-spider vegetarian spider

    http://creation.com/the-lion-that-wouldnt-eat-meat lion

    http://creation.com/catching-a-kinkajou

    kinkajou (Potos flavus), or ‘honey bear

    http://creation.com/focus-HYPERLINK "http://creation.com/focus-252"252

    Vegan dog

    http://creation.com/the-bird-of-prey-thats-not vulture bird of prey

    http://creation.com/lea-the-spaghetti-lioness lioness spaghetti

    crocodiles regularly eat vegetation

    Reporting in the Journal of Zoology, a group of U.S. scientists studied alligator diets from Florida's Everglades National Park.4 Their review of published studies added to new observations finding that 13 of 18 crocodylian species eat fruit from 34 different plant families.

    Gators often eat fleshy fruit. Some fruit falls into their mouths while they are pursuing animal prey; "however, there is little doubt that on occasion, fruit is deliberately consumed, often in large quantities," according to the study authors.4

    For example, "Last year a researcher working in south-east Asia reported seeing a wild Siamese crocodile tucking into a watermelon," according to New Scientist.

    1. For example, The [Charleston] Post and Courier reported in 2007 how snorkeler Bill Hedden lost his left arm to a 12-foot alligator in South Carolina. "Man's Arm Salvaged from Alligator's Belly," September 17.

    2. Obligate carnivores are supposed to eat only meat.

    3. Criswell, D. 2009. Predation Did Not Come from Evolution. Acts & Facts. 38 (3): 9.

    4. Platt, S.G. et al. 2013. Frugivory and seed dispersal by crocodilians: an overlooked form of saurochory? Journal of Zoology. Published online before print, Jul 16, 2013.

    5. Barras, C. Crocodiles may need their fruity five-a-day. New Scientist. Posted on newscientist.com on July 30, 2013, accessed July 31, 2013.
    * Mr. Thomas is Science Writer at the Institute for Creation Research.

    http://www.icr.org/article/7665/

    The fearsome piranha’s vegetarian version uses its teeth to shred plants, not meat.

    Purring monkey and vegetarian piranha among 400 new Amazon species

    Piranhas cousin vegetarian

    Piranha - creation.com

    Meet Florence, the world's first vegetarian shark who prefers celery sticks and cucumber to fish Florence’s mouth is filled with razor-sharp, serrated teeth designed for demolishing fish and crustaceans.

    Instead she uses them for pulping broccoli and cabbage and any other greens she can steal from fellow ocean tank resident Molokai the green turtle.

    Read more: World's first vegetarian shark shuns meat - so bemused Sea Life staff have to hide fish inside cucumbers to give her protein | Daily Mail Online

    World's first vegetarian shark shuns meat - so bemused Sea Life staff have to hide fish inside cucumbers to give her protein | Daily Mail Online

    monitor lizard species eats only fruit

    new scientist 10 april 2010 p7

    Skeptics challenge: a ‘God of love’ created a killer jellyfish?
    Skeptics challenge: a ‘God of love’ created a killer jellyfish? - creation.com

    fire ants dance or die david cathpoole creation 36 [4] 2014

    the origin of mosquitoes ans malaria.

    Crithidia easily converting from blood- to plant-based food “

    The Genesis of Malaria
    Odd Saber-Toothed Beast Discovered—Preyed on ... Plants?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/HYPERLINK "http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/110324-saber-toothed-sabertooth-vegetarian-science-evolution-tiarajudens/"2011HYPERLINK "http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/110324-saber-toothed-sabertooth-vegetarian-science-evolution-tiarajudens/"/HYPERLINK "http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/110324-saber-toothed-sabertooth-vegetarian-science-evolution-tiarajudens/"03HYPERLINK "http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/110324-saber-toothed-sabertooth-vegetarian-science-evolution-tiarajudens/"/HYPERLINK "http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/110324-saber-toothed-sabertooth-vegetarian-science-evolution-tiarajudens/"110324HYPERLINK "http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/110324-saber-toothed-sabertooth-vegetarian-science-evolution-tiarajudens/"-saber-toothed-sabertooth-HYPERLINK "http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/110324-saber-toothed-sabertooth-vegetarian-science-evolution-tiarajudens/"vegetarian-HYPERLINK "http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/110324-saber-toothed-sabertooth-vegetarian-science-evolution-tiarajudens/"science-evolution-tiarajudens/

    anteaters eat fruit as well, love avocados honey etc ants also may not be part of “death” in bible, so may have been eaten before fall.

    Arrdvarks [ant eaters]-insects may not be part of nephesh life [pre fall no death] eat cucumbers subterranean fruit, seeds, zoos today feed them with mix of plant materials.

    also

    The carnivorous nature and suffering of animals - creation.com

    Fierce, Grass-Eating Monkeys?



    Fierce, Grass-Eating Monkeys?

    Parasitic Worms

    http://www.icr.org/article/HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/"HYPERLINK "HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/"http://www.icr.org/article/HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/"5845HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/"/HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/""HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/"5845HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/"HYPERLINK "HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/"http://www.icr.org/article/HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/"5845HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/"/HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/""HYPERLINK "Parasitic Worms Help Heal Intestines"/

    When they live in the ground parasitic round worms are beneficial and break down plants to digest. They than sometimes move into the human digestive system and become parasites.

    parasite used to fight disease

    http://www.icr.org/article/HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/"6269HYPERLINK "http://www.icr.org/article/5845/"/

    Carnivorous plants

    Giant meat-eating plants prefer to eat tree shrew poo

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_HYPERLINK "http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8552000/8552157.stm"8552000HYPERLINK "http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8552000/8552157.stm"/HYPERLINK "http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8552000/8552157.stm"8552157HYPERLINK "http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8552000/8552157.stm".stm

    also

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_HYPERLINK "http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9372000/9372874.stm"9372000HYPERLINK "http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9372000/9372874.stm"/HYPERLINK "http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9372000/9372874.stm"9372874HYPERLINK "http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9372000/9372874.stm".stm



    immune system original purpose/function

    http://www.icr.org/article/applying-design-analysis-microbiome



    all carnivorous plants have chlorophyll, enabling them to make their own food,just like conventional plants.

    Certain pitcher plants,instead of trapping insects get supplemental nutrition from dead leaves and bird experiment that has fallen on their pitchers

    darwins island by steve jones little ,brown,london 2008

    Thorns and Thistles Defense and Survival Adaptationshttp://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v6/n1/thorns-thistles

    venom from a snail used to fight pain,cancer aids,certain nervous system disorders.

    U of Utah 2011 feb 17 venom of marine snail provides new drugs physorg



    was there pain before the fall?http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/06/22/satan-the-fall-good-evil-pain-before-fall"2010HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/06/22/satan-the-fall-good-evil-pain-before-fall"/HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/06/22/satan-the-fall-good-evil-pain-before-fall"06HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/06/22/satan-the-fall-good-evil-pain-before-fall"/HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/06/22/satan-the-fall-good-evil-pain-before-fall"22HYPERLINK "http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/06/22/satan-the-fall-good-evil-pain-before-fall"/satan-the-fall-good-evil-pain-

    http://www.




    Mosquitoes and the Fall
    http://www.icr.org/article/7259/

    Did Lions Roam the Garden of Eden?

    http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/af/af1307.pdf

    Insect eating plants -see Pitcher plants and animal sanitation creation mag 37 [1] 2015and

    Rats, bats and pitcher plants
    https://creation.com/rats-bats-and-pitcher-plants
     
  7. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    That is of course one reason [and the main you are correct] but not the only. Often he "had compassion" on the masses and healed them even after he tried to depart.


    None said he must follow perfectly or that man is able to do so, he is not. Wars are part of the fallen world as is a disrupted/cursed creation. I think you might have missed part of my op but I said only when God steps into creation will wars/disease end.


    I think much of your objection seem to be on Calvinistic worldview. I will be doing a thread on Calvinism and would like to wait for that thread.
     
  8. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    I will be doing a thread on Calvinism in the future and I know they would object to some of what I said in my op. I would rather address/discus Calvinism on its own thread. This is more an apologetic to non believers.
     
  9. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I offer I understand what you are saying.

    How about how Jesus said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God"? (in Luke 18:27) Do you consider this to be relevant to the thread and also what can help unbelievers? In order to trust in Jesus for salvation, doesn't a person need to see how he or she has failed without God and needs to depend on God for everything? This includes, of course, first depending on how Jesus died for us, on the cross, so we can be reconciled to God and forgiven for our sins. And then depend on Him to change us so we succeed in doing all He desires with us.

    James says, "submit to God", in James 4:7, and this appears to be written to ones living sinfully and selfishly. So, ones do need to personally submit to God, in their process of trusting in Christ for salvation, don't they?

    This is where I am coming from. I haven't a clue how John Calvin really was as a person, or how he applied what he believed. So, I am not at all trying to deal with him and things he has said. And I have offered scriptures which I mean.
     
  10. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy A person of low ability. Supporter

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    Bullseye.
     
  11. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    I thought that nonaeroterraqueous correctly refuted some of your statements, so I won't address those here. I will only address the title question: "Why is There Death and Suffering if God is all Loving?"

    Biblically, the answer is 3-fold, in which all 3 ideas are interrelated:
    1. By reason of comparison. How would we know how good God is unless there was evil to compare it to? Further, we must experience such evil in order to get the full measure of knowledge. In fact, it is in the times of the worst calamities that love shines the most. And it is in comparison to the ultimate justice (lake of fire judgment) that mercy is glorified in the eyes of those who receive it. And it is in comparison to the agony of hopeless corruption that the grace of God is exemplified to those who receive it.

    2. By reason of Christ's virtue. How can the overcoming nature of Christ be displayed unless there was sin and death to overcome?

    3. By reason of faith. If there was no suffering, death, tribulation, and temptation, how could anyone exercise faith in God?

    Therefore, in order to fulfill the purposes of God to display in man, the crown of His creation, it is necessary for evil, suffering, death, and sin to exist. Rom. 8 states that the whole creation "groans like a woman in childbirth" for "the revealing of God's sons." And such is revealed in the worst of circumstances.

    A prime example is when Jesus said:
    (Mat. 5:44-45) "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

    Therefore, the conclusion we must draw is that for God's purpose to reveal the nature of His love, mercy, grace, and kindness, the world we live in is the best possible world that could exist.
    TD:)
     
  12. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy A person of low ability. Supporter

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    The answer might be found by combining the biblical story with the geological evidence, which clearly shows that death and suffering go back long before the account of Genesis One. GAP theory is a good place to start.
     
  13. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But you did bring in the thing about people having free will or else we would be robots/puppets; so ones who understand otherwise . . . in this theology forum . . . would likely have something to say about this.

    And when I read Romans chapter nine, this helped me realize how much I needed to depend on God for all He really wants of me. This helped me to totally depend on Jesus on the cross, in trusting Him for salvation, and make no boast that I was getting my own self to trust Him in the really right way.

    So, though > about your apologetic question about why there is death and suffering if God is all loving.

    Well, by faith we believe God is all loving, even though there is death and suffering. But ones argue that if God is all loving and almighty, He would already have taken away all the evil. May be ones could say, if you are a child's parent and you see there is great danger for your child, you are not going to just say, oh child you have a free will so please do not give in to that evil. You do not just allow your child to go where that evil would teach your child a lesson. You know the child will fail, since he or she is only a child. Therefore, why ever has God let helpless humans be done in by evil, when they did not even have a chance because of not being God?

    Ones say this helps humans to have proof that we have no chance on our own, without God.

    Another item > we can be our own main problems, then. The evil and suffering are not the real problem, but we are because we do not have the strength of love's character like God to stand against evil. Jesus does say, each person needs to deny one's own self > Luke 9:23-24. Our own selves, Jesus knows, is our real enemy which makes us available to being done in, emotionally or however.

    We need how God is able to change us into love beings who are like God and with God and all which is possible with Him. Then we can take advantage of Satan and his evil, and with God using even evil for His love purpose > like happened with Joseph who was sold into slavery in Egypt > Genesis 37-50 < his own brothers sold him into slavery, but God used that for the good of Joseph. But also many other people benefited from how God blessed and used Joseph > when God's purpose is winning out over evil, then, there is all-loving good, not only us using God to watch out for us and ones close to us!!!

    So, in order to follow Jesus we need to know we need to not only be trying to use God to take care of us and ones close to us >

    "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" Jesus says in Matthew 5:46.

    I think it helps if a person needing salvation sees this need to depend only on God and to become all-loving. And we can do well to know that with God we are not going on being victims of evil and fearing it and being impressed by it, but we trust the LORD and with God be ready for loving and for taking advantage of whatever is going on. With God our Creator, we are creative in His love, like this, more and more. So, it is good to include this in how we trust Jesus.
     
  14. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    agreed, but who would summit to a god who allows suffering and death unless a good reason was given? is god evil and enjoys death? if not why is there death?
     
  15. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    I can see why a Calvinist would think so. Be as stated that is not the topic. To me he presented Calvinism only not a refutation. Stick around for my thread on Anglicanism that will address his post and Calvinism in general.





    So Adam and even and us in eternity where creation will be restored with no death cannot know love or God or what is good just because there is no evil? I disagree and i dont think the position biblical but i have no interest in arguing against your post. It more gives another view.
     
  16. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    if we believe in an old earth and evolution as our source instead of the bible or biblical creation. More threads will be done on the subject but here are some i did awhile back.


    Biblical Creation vs Evolution- the age of the Earth
    Biblical Creation vs Evolution- the Fossil Record
    Evolutionist Caught Lying for Their Religion and has Evolution Been Demonstrated
     
  17. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    Very true and good point. Maybe I should title it an Arminianism response to death and suffering. Thanks for your thoughts.
     
  18. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy A person of low ability. Supporter

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    We were created mortal so that we come to understand and appreciate life; what it is, what it means, and the potential for abundant (everlasting) life. Personally I'd like to be around forever. There's a whole universe to explore; places to go, things to do, people to meet.

    God is restoring his spiritual kingdom which was severely damaged in the rebellion. Human life since Adam has been a reenactment of the rebellion and it's aftermath in a temporary, material form. Humans, resurrected and changed to immortal beings will replace those fallen angels in the restored kingdom.

    This short time of suffering and death is just a blip on God's timeline. A small price to pay for eternal life without such. :bow:
     
  19. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy A person of low ability. Supporter

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  20. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    Your argument doesn't look well-thought out to me. If we experienced evil in this life, we will know what it is like in the next, and be that much more committed against it. If you are of that camp that believes we won't remember this life, I can see where you are coming from. But "wipe away every tear" doesn't mean wiping away memory.

    You asked the question in a Christians Only forum, which gives me the right to answer it. But if you are not interested in where in the scripture I get my conclusions, that's your business. But I can see a hostility in your response, so if your attitude doesn't change, then this is where our paths diverge.
    TD:)
     
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