Why is the Rich-Man in Luke 16:24 calling out to Abraham?

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Luke 16:24
And he shouting said--Father Abraham! be thou merciful to me! and send Lazarus!
that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,
--that I am being pained in this, the flame/phlox<5395>
 

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
That was on purpose an example Jesus used from some Jewish beliefs/doctrines (not from Yahweh) of some of the Jewish group(s) that opposed Yahweh and that Jesus exposed (partly) with this example of the rich man and Lazarus. It didn't / doesn't actually 'happen'.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Scri
That was on purpose an example Jesus used from some Jewish beliefs/doctrines (not from Yahweh) of some of the Jewish group(s) that opposed Yahweh and that Jesus exposed (partly) with this example of the rich man and Lazarus. It didn't / doesn't actually 'happen'.
Scripture has no need to make anything up.
When Jesus said He was the Truth, He didn't mean good story-teller.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Luke 16:24
And he shouting said--Father Abraham! be thou merciful to me! and send Lazarus!
that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,
--that I am b
eing pained in this, the <5395>flame/phlox

The word "phoneo" translated "shouting" is not correctly translated. "Phoneo" simply means to speak, call out. The word for shout is "epiphoneo."
.....Many consider this story a parable but it is not in the format of a parable, is not introduced as a parable and is not explained later to the disciples. Parabolo means to lay beside. Something unknown or not understood is explained/clarified by comparing it to something known/understood. All of the ECF who quote or refer to Lazarus and the rich man consider it to be factual.

• Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies Book II <pupil of Polycarp, who was a pupil of John the apostle>
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
In that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead.
• Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book IV.
Chap II 3. ...And again, the Lord Himself exhibits Abraham as having said to the rich man, with reference to all those who were still alive: “If they do not obey Moses and the prophets, neither, if any one were to rise from the dead and go to them, will they believe him.” (Luk_16:31)
4. Now, He has not merely related to us a story respecting a poor man and a rich one; but He has taught us, in the first place, that no one should lead a luxurious life, nor, living in worldly pleasures and perpetual feastings, should be the slave of his lusts, and forget God. “For there was,” He says, “a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and delighted himself with splendid feasts.” (Luk_6:19) Of such persons, too, the Spirit has spoken by Esaias: “They drink wine with [the accompaniment of] harps, and tablets, and psalteries, and flutes; but they regard not the works of God, neither do they consider the work of His hands.” (Isa_5:12)
• Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Treatise on the Soul
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian On Idolatry
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Thus, too, Eleazar in Hades, (attaining refreshment in Abraham’s bosom) and the rich man, (on the other hand, set in the torment of fire) compensate, by an answerable retribution, their alternate vicissitudes of evil and good.
• Clement Of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor “
There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Archelaus [A.D. 277.] The Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes.
41. There was a certain rich man, (Luk_16:19, etc.) who lived after the manner of the Gentiles, and passed his time in great luxury every day; and there was also another man, a poor man, who was his neighbour, and who was unable to procure even his daily bread. It happened that both these men departed this life, that they both descended into the grave,333 and that the poor man was conveyed into the place of rest, and so forth, as is known to you. But, furthermore, that rich man had also five brothers, living as he too had lived, and disturbed by no doubt as to lessons which they had learned at home from such a master. The rich man then entreated that these should be instructed in the superior doctrine together and at once.334 But Abraham, knowing that they still stood in need of the paedagogue, said to him: “They have Moses and the prophets.”
• Methodius [A.D. 260-312.] From the Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III.
XIX. He says that Origen holds these opinions which he refutes. And there may be a doubt concerning Lazarus and the rich man. The simpler persons think that these things were spoken as though both were receiving their due for the things which they had done in life in their bodies; but the more accurate think that, since no one is left in life after the resurrection, these things do not happen at the resurrection. For the rich man says: “I have five brethren; . . . lest they also ome into this place of torment,” (Luk_16:28) send Lazarus, that he may tell them of those things hich are here. And, therefore, if we ask respecting the “tongue,” and the “finger,” and “Abraham’s bosom,” and the reclining there, it may perhaps be that the soul receives in the change a form similar in appearance to its gross and earthly body.
But the rich man in torment, and the poor man who was comforted in the bosom of Abraham, are said, the one to be punished in Hades, and the other to be comforted in Abraham’s bosom, before the appearing of the Saviour, and before the end of the world, and therefore before the resurrection; teaching that now already, at the change, the soul rises a body.
Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
Upvote 0

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2017
3,426
2,845
59
Lafayette, LA
✟544,986.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
• Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Treatise on the Soul
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.

Enjoyed your post. Tertullian is the best quote. Why would the Lord be suggesting there is actual bodily torment in Hell if there is not? And why would He be telling a mere story about it if He wanted it to be regarded as real?

@LittleLambofJesus: Traditional Christian theology states that the rich man was in the Hades section of Sheol whereas Lazarus was on the Paradise side. There was a gulf between them that he could not cross, but he could see across it to where Abraham and Lazarus were. And since he was used to Lazarus being a slave during his lifetime on earth, he was still asking for Abraham to order him around like one after death. It shows how wicked the rich man still was, and how he hadn't changed even now that he was in Hell. He still wanted to treat Lazarus like some sort of slave, only now he had to try and go through Abraham to do it.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Luke 16:24
And he shouting said--Father Abraham! be thou merciful to me! and send Lazarus!..............
That was on purpose an example Jesus used from some Jewish beliefs/doctrines (not from Yahweh) of some of the Jewish group(s) that opposed Yahweh and that Jesus exposed (partly) with this example of the rich man and Lazarus. It didn't / doesn't actually 'happen'.
Very interesting and thanks.

The Chief priests, Pharisees, Sudducees, Elders and the Scribes, and the Jews that were subservient to them, mostly likely out of fear.

John 8 comes to mind and may give us more of a hint in identifying the rich man in Luke 16.

[Besides Luke 1:73, John 8 and Luke 16 are the only chapters in the Gospel that use the phrase "father Abraham".]

John 8:
13 So the Pharisees said to Him, “Thou are testifying about Thyself; Thy testimony is not valid.”

37 I know that seed of Abraham ye are,
but ye are seeking Me to kill because My word has no place within ye

39 Abraham is our father,” they replied.

“If ye were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye are trying to kill Me, a Man Who has told ye the truth that I heard from God.
Abraham never did such a thing.
41 Ye are doing the works of the father of ye

“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God Father of ye, ye would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.

53
“Are Thou greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead.

Who do Thou make Thyself out to be?”
56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”



 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Enjoyed your post. Tertullian is the best quote. Why would the Lord be suggesting there is actual bodily torment in Hell if there is not? And why would He be telling a mere story about it if He wanted it to be regarded as real?
@LittleLambofJesus: Traditional Christian theology states that the rich man was in the Hades section of Sheol whereas Lazarus was on the Paradise side. There was a gulf between them that he could not cross, but he could see across it to where Abraham and Lazarus were. And since he was used to Lazarus being a slave during his lifetime on earth, he was still asking for Abraham to order him around like one after death. It shows how wicked the rich man still was, and how he hadn't changed even now that he was in Hell. He still wanted to treat Lazarus like some sort of slave, only now he had to try and go through Abraham to do it.
Some people question what was the rich man's offense that he was sent to hades. It was not because he was rich......
Vs. 21 "Who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table." This indicates that Lazarus did not even get the crumbs from the rich man's table. Here is the commandment the rich man violated.
Deuteronomy 15:7-8
(7) If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
(8) But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.


 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Scripture has no need to make anything up.
When Jesus said He was the Truth, He didn't mean good story-teller.
His parable/stories tried to speak a Truth, but the Jewish rulers felt they alone had the truth.

Here is one of the responses made by the Jewish rulers after listening to His parables:

Matthew 21:45
Now when the Chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables,
they perceived that He was speaking of them.


And then this, after hearing His parables in Luke 15 and 1st part of chapter 16:

Luke 16:
14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all of this and were scoffing at Jesus.

15 So He said to them, “Ye are the ones who justify thy selves before men,
but God knows your hearts. For what is prized among men is detestable before God.

And then this parable/story begins which must have really hit the mark:


19 Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen,

who lived each day in joyous splendor.

What does the purple and fine line signify?
How did the Jewish rulers dress?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2017
3,426
2,845
59
Lafayette, LA
✟544,986.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Some people question what was the rich man's offense that he was sent to hades. It was not because he was rich......
Vs. 21 "Who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table." This indicates that Lazarus did not even get the crumbs from the rich man's table. Here is the commandment the rich man violated.
Deuteronomy 15:7-8
(7) If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
(8) But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.

Very good. :oldthumbsup: Thanks for the post.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Right.
This obviously isn't intended as a literal picture of what happens after death. It's a parable.
I would tend to agree.

Out of the whole NT, the name Lazarus is only mentioned in Luke 16 [parable of rich-man and Lazarus] and John 11, 12 [Lazarus resurrected from the dead.]
I find that rather amazing.

Luke 16:20
“But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.

John 11:

24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

39

Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”
Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
43
Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!”
44
And he who had died came out
bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

46
But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did.
47
Then the Chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs.

John 12:
1 Jesus, therefore, six days before the passover, came to Bethany, where was Lazarus, who had died, whom He raised out of the dead;

9 A great multitude, therefore, of the Jews knew that he is there, and they came, not because of Jesus only, but that Lazarus also they may see, whom he raised out of the dead; 10 and the Chief priests took counsel, that also Lazarus they may kill, 11 because on account of him many of the Jews were going away, and were believing in Jesus.

17

Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
The word "phoneo" translated "shouting" is not correctly translated. "Phoneo" simply means to speak, call out.
The word for shout is "epiphoneo.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, *snip.............
Hi D A. Haven't seen you around in awhile.
Good post and thanks for bringing that up.

I just noticed the different forms of #G5456.

2019. epi-phoneo ep-ee-fo-neh'-o from 1909 and 5455; to call at something, i.e. exclaim:--cry (against), give a shout.

5455. phoneo fo-neh'-o from 5456; to emit a sound (animal, human or instrumental); by implication, to address in words or by name, also in imitation:--call (for), crow, cry.
5456. phone fo-nay' probably akin to 5316 through the idea of disclosure; a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by implication, an address (for any purpose),
saying or language:--noise, sound, voice.

fwnhsaV<5455> used in:
Luke 16:2 Luke 16:24 Luke 23:46 Acts 9:41 Acts 10:7


Luke 16:24 [#G5456 Revelation 14:18]
And he sounding/calling out/fwnhsaV<5455> said--"Father Abraham! be thou merciful to me! and send Lazarus!...............


This is the only verse in all of Revelation that #G5455 is used

Revelation 14:18 [Joel 3:13]
and another Messenger did come forth out from the Altar, having authority over the fire
And He sound-out/efwnhsen/<5455> to a great sound/voice/fwnh<5456, to Him having the sharp sickle, saying......................

2 different greek words are used in Reve 11:18:

Revelation 14 - Parallel Greek New Testament - HTML Bible by johnhurt.com

Reve 14:18
........kai efwnhsen<5455> kraugh<2906> megalh..............


........kai efwnhsen<5455> fwnh<5456> megalh............
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Shempster

ImJustMe
Site Supporter
Dec 28, 2014
1,560
786
✟258,881.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Luke 16:24
And he shouting said--Father Abraham! be thou merciful to me! and send Lazarus!
that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,
--that I am being pained in this, the flame/phlox<5395>
For the same reason many will call out to Jesus saying Lord, Lord.
The rich man assumed Abraham would come to his rescue but it backfired.
He assumed that because he identified with Abraham and the Jewish religion that he had peace with with God. He had it all backwards.
There will be many who will cry out to Jesus and expect to get into the kingdom of heaven but will be rejected. Why will they be rejected? The exact same reason the rich man was rejected.
That parable addresses the same topic.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,291
20,290
US
✟1,476,962.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus also presents His audience with a surprising turnabout.

The pervasive presumption of the day (and often today as well among Christians), is that if a person is wealthy it's because God has rewarded him for righteousness; if a person is poor, it's because God is punishing him for sin.

So the expectation of Jesus' audience (those who believed in an afterlife) was that the rich man would be continue his reward into eternity and the poor man would continue his punishment into eternity.

Jesus' story didn't play it out that way, which would have been a surprise and required a better understanding of what "righteousness" really means.
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

Greg J.

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 2, 2016
3,841
1,907
Southeast Michigan
✟233,164.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

Luke 16:24
And he shouting said--Father Abraham! be thou merciful to me! and send Lazarus!
that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,
--that I am being pained in this, the flame/phlox<5395>
Isn't the answer in the passage itself? The man was in pain and considered Abraham his father in some sense.

For some others:

There was a rich man ... (Luke 19:16, 1984 NIV)

Jesus believed Scripture down to the least stroke of a pen (Matthew 5:18 / Luke 16:17) and a verb tense (Matthew 22:32 / Mark 12:26-27 / Luke 20:37-38).
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,291
20,290
US
✟1,476,962.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Isn't the answer in the passage itself? The man was in pain and considered Abraham his father in some sense.

His father in the sense of being a tribal descendant of Abraham, and using father as a self-serving honorific.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ron Gurley

What U See is What U Get!
Site Supporter
Sep 22, 2015
4,000
1,029
Baton Rouge, LA
Visit site
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Luke 16...Jesus' SERMON

1. Lazarus dies and is carried into Abraham's bosom. By the phrase, Abraham's bosom, an allusion is made to the custom at Jewish feasts, when three persons reclining on their left elbows on a couch, the person whose head came near the breast of the other, was said to lie in his bosom. So it is said of the beloved disciple, John 13:25. Abraham's bosom was a phrase used among the Jews to signify the paradise of God. See Josephus's account of the Maccabees, chap. xiii.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc/luke-16.html
 
Upvote 0