Why is the day of worship controversial?

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" for all eternity AFTER the cross in the New Earth.

Didn’t Jesus say that if we have lost a sheep or a coin we should look for it even on the sabbath?

No.

And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

Relieving suffering is valid in the OT for the Sabbath as you point out. I think I was distracted by the "search for lost coin" comment.

“One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.”

Rom 14
“One man observes one day above another while another man observes them all"
Paul is speaking of the Bible-approve annual holy days of Lev 23.

At the same time Gal 4:7-9 Paul condemns even ONE observance of a pagan holy day.

If you're going to adhere to the OT Sabbath, then you must adhere to all the teachings about it.

Not true even by the standards of almost every Sunday group on planet Earth ... as noted in my signature line - they all admit to the obvious 1 Cor 7:19 fact that there is a distinction between moral law of God and ceremonial law (and civil law which even they admit only applies under a theocracy)

(I keep repeating that point on these threads)

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

Sabbath is a day of rest. If you want to celebrate it on Saturday that's fine. My Sabbath is Sunday.

This thread is not about DDB's own personal sabbath day -- it is about "the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10

 

[BobRyan]

Jer 31
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

This is the new covenant:
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’b]'>[b]

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.

Glad to see you are willing to type that in a post. NEW Covenant

I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.

That is very different from your view is it not

That is not the OC... it is the New Covenant. Did you not notice that?

 

[ace of hearts]

The fact that 1 John 3 is not saying what your preference does not allow -- does not mean we should never quote it... I think we both can agree to that.

The mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to it when one is at war "with the text"

If you quoted the full text and not just part of a sentence, I would come closer to agreeing with you. However a half truth is a full lie.

you just shot your own argument in the foot.

Please read what the passage says.

As already pointed out -- all the lost and unsaved world are "under the LAW" Romans 3:19-21 to this very day - that is how the lost "are lost" -- under the condemnation of the Law.

Where does the passage say that?

 

[ace of hearts]

The Sabbath is more of a Judaic custom and observance between God and Israel than a NT teaching. Under that law, an Israelite could not leave their home, build a fire, or cause anyone to work. If you did any of those things you were to be put to death. People are mistaken if they think that applies to NT Christians. If they're adhere to that part of the law then they should adhere to all of it. There’s no obligation for New Testament believers to observe a Saturday or Sunday Sabbath, as long as you set aside a day of rest.

“One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.”

Paul said, “For if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
He also said, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,

Paul again, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. KJV Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Believers are not under the Old Testament Law (Romans 6:14; Galatians 3:24-25; 2 Corinthians 3:7, 11, 13; Hebrews 7:12). Jesus resurrected on the first day of the week, and Pentecost likely occurred on Sunday. It has no bearing on a person’s salvation. As long as we all honor a day of rest we are doing the right thing.

Paul preached unto them…
1 Cor. 16:1-2 Now about the collection for God’s people…On the FIRST day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income…

Saturday doesn’t need to be the Sabbath any more than we need to adhere to any other part of Judaic law like killing people for NOT observing the sabbath or food restrictions etc.

Didn’t Jesus say that if we have lost a sheep or a coin we should look for it even on the sabbath? Jesus observed the Sabbath because he was Jewish.
Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

The Jewish Sabbath ended at the cross when Christ annulled the law. Historically, Sunday was the normal meeting day for Christians in the church, and its practice dates back to the first century.

SDA'S try to say the Sabbath was first initiated in the book of Genesis. The word rest isn't the same word as Sabbath. The word Sabbath is first mentioned in Exodus.

Welcome to this section of the forum, doc. Neat moniker.

 

[ace of hearts]

Might have been me - what year and where/what forum?

I don't know much about other religious forums. But what makes you think it's another forum? There aren't that many formal debates here. So it should still be on the first page to third page on the list. What ever your post reads like a denial to me.

Creative writing??

If you think so. I take it you don't want to comment and it's your way to belittle and ignore.

I never claim no new covenant. I admit that the Bible teaches a new Covenant with the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers to have included the TEN - written on the heart. (In exegesis - context matters - details matter).

You claim the New Covenant is the covenant given to Israel after departure from Egypt that's written on the heart. Jeremiah said it was the old covenant because he talks about a new covenant. There can't be something new unless something else is old.

 

[ace of hearts]

Romans 8:4-10 says clearly that the lost person "does not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" -- by contrast to the saints. Romans 6 makes the same case. So also Rom 3:31.

Sorry but that isn't the case.

Bible details matter.

Yes they do.

 

[ace of hearts]

Its quite sad really, people having to resort to copy pasting the same old thing, and only taking selective snippets of posts to respond to, having to ignore the truth that points out their failure to see. It is testament to their inability to accept or see the truth, or I am afraid to understand the depth of the message

They've run out of approaches.

 

[ace of hearts]

True and Christ "is the WORD" John 1:1 ... Rev 19. Not "at WAR with the WORD".

Oh no something new. You're one of those who promote the law over Jesus the "Word."

A list of false accusations about the character and persons of those who differ with you - not the ideal

I didn't see some list in either your quote or his unedited post.

 

[mmksparbud]

The Holy Spirit leads believers into truth. You need Him to understanding the message written in the bible. Without him you never will truly understand the message though you can read as much as you like. Scripture is clear on this:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:6

Which proves that sola scripturists only believe in partial sola scripture. For you either follow after the Holy Spirit, who leads into truth, or the written code

Of course--the Holy Spirit is always with us. I never open His word or come on this site without deep prayer first. I always pray to never mislead nor to be mislead and that what I say is His truth and not my own. What I mean is, ---it's like my friend who came to me for prayer--she was deeply in love with a man--not a Christian. She wanted to know what God wanted her to do and she was not sleeping due to this troubling her so. I told her--you do not need prayers except for you to be kept true to His word. You have already been told by His word what you are to do, the question is not what does God want you to do but will you follow the already stated will of God to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. She was rather upset with me--but she went home and prayed and walked away from him. Shortly after that she met and married a true man of God and has been happily married to him for over 25 years. When God say thou salt not steal---it is pretty cut and dried--however, the Holy Spirit will lead you into understanding that it is more than not taking something. you can steal by cheating on your employer by not doing your job and taking time that he is paying you for to do your own things---and that, too, is stealing. That is the spirit of the law, not the letter.

 

[mmksparbud]

But you believe remaining in a saved state hinges on not committing sin concerning the letter, which is observing the law

No--None of the 10 will ever get you into heaven. The Spirit of God in our hearts is what changes our hearts to be a reflection of the character of God. That is the Spirit of the law.

 

[mmksparbud]

They've run out of approaches.

Never, for God gives us the "approaches", which is, another way of explaining His truth. Sometimes all lone can do is to keep repeating His word in the hopes that it will be seen in its true light.

 

[ace of hearts]

Genesis 4 "sin is crouching at your door - but you must master it" - this is long before the formal giving of the Law "on stone" at Sinai.

Ex 16 "tomorrow is the Sabbath" -- this is before the formal giving of the Law "on stone" in Ex 20.

Adam "sinned" - and it was held to his account such that he was booted from Eden, condemned to death and needed the Gospel.

Rom 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for (even before = until) until the Law sin was in the world

NLT
12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given.

The fact that these people were being condemned for their sins means the law DID exist even before the formal ceremony at Sinai where it is written on stone.

It was ALWAYS a sin to "take God's name in vain" -- and this is why I show that both sides have agreed to these Bible details in my signature line it is not just Bible-Sabbath honoring Christians that know about it.

Where there is no Law - there is NO SIN -- because "by definition" - SIN IS transgression of the LAW - which is why Paul keeps reminding us that this is how we know "what sin is"

Then it's impossible for Rom 5:13 and Gal 3:19 to be true. Obviously you reject them as written.

 

[ace of hearts]

No--None of the 10 will ever get you into heaven. The Spirit of God in our hearts is what changes our hearts to be a reflection of the character of God. That is the Spirit of the law.

Why have you quoted Rev 22:14 to me. The Tree of Life is in heaven. Surely if one gets into heaven they have that right which you claim comes only from obeying the famous 10.

 

[ace of hearts]

Does Paul ever say "do not take God's name in vain because I am sinless"???

Or are you saying this is your argument in favor of Christians taking God's name in vain ??

When John writes "these things I write that you sin not" in 1 John 2:1 does he add "Because I have never sinned"?

When John write "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3;4 does he add "because I have never sinned"???

======================

who is the "accuser of the brethren" in Rev 12??

Depends on who the brethren are.

 

[mmksparbud]

People who insist you follow after the letter if you want to remain in a saved state, quote certain selective scriptures woodenly concerning the letter of the law. However, when you confront them with the truth that they can sin against the ten commandments in thought, where no one but God knows they do so, they have to ignore what you write. Why? Because neither they or anyone else can obey the letter of the law, the bible is clear on that, the letter kills, so they have to dumb down the law from the pristene level it is set at to a place they(somehow) kid themselves they fully obey it. You have to become somewhat hardnosed/indifferent to God's good and holy laws in order to keep going in your religion. The only alternative is to become crushed and give up with the faith.
The one who follows after the Holy Spirit is unable to take such a path, for their convictions are far greater than others

But it is those thoughts that God sends His Spirit to control through keeping our minds stayed on Him. God judges the heart, always, not the outward observances. There are many ways to be a Pharisee.
One is to think that in not doing what He says, you are walking in the spirit and be proud of your so called accomplishment and thank God that you are not a sinner like those that keep His word in their hearts and honor and worship Him in Spirit and in truth. You are above that. And you look down on those who do what His word says and believe that the Holy Spirit leads them into all truth. You can be smug in your perceptions, but God judges the heart of man--that heart is revealed in our secret thoughts to which God alone is privilege.

 

[ace of hearts]

Hmmm really? Perhaps you should read the bible. Just a few of many...

ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR THROUGH THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

1 JOHN 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

ROMANS 6:10-16 [10], For in that he died, he died to sin once: but in that he lives, he lives to God. [11], LIKEWISE RECKON YOU ALSO TO BE DEAD INDEED TO SIN [breaking God's LAW], BUT ALIVE TO GOD THROUGH OUT LORD JESUS CHRIST. [12], LET NO SIN [breaking God's LAW] REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY , that you should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13], Neither yield you your members as instruments of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS UNTO SIN [breaking God's LAW]: BUT YEILD YOURSELF TO GOD AS THOSE THAT ARE ALIVE FROM THE DEAD, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [14], For SIN [breaking God's LAW] SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU: for you are not under the law, but under grace. [15], What then? SHALL WE SIN [breaking God's LAW], because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID. [16], Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of SIN [breaking God's LAW] UNTO DEATH, or of obedience to righteousness?

ROMANS 6:23 [23], FOR THE WAGES OF SIN [breaking God's LAW] IS DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

PROVERBS 28:13 9, He that turns away his ear from hearing the law [SIN], even his prayer shall be abomination.

JAMES 2:10-11 [10], For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point [SIN], he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we SIN [break God's LAW] willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins [breaking God's LAW], [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

ROMANS 2:12-13 [12], For as many as have sinned [broken God's LAW] without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law.

ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

ROMANS 8:6-8 [8]
[6], For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7], Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8], So then they that are in the flesh [SINFUL Human nature] cannot please God.

ROMANS 6:1-6
[1], What shall we say then? SHALL WE SIN [break God's LAW], that grace may abound?
[2], GOD FORBID. HOW SHALL WE THAT ARE DEAD TO SIN [breaking God's LAW], LIVE ANY LONGER THERE IN?
[3], KNOWN YOU NOT THAT AS MANY OF US THAT WERE BAPTISED INTO JESUS CHRIST WERE BAPTISED INTO HIS DEATH?
[4], Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even SO WE SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.
[5], For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[6], KNOWING THIS THAT OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED WITH HIM THAT THE BODY OF SIN [break God's LAW] MIGHT BE DESTROYED THAT WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN [break God's LAW].

ROMANS 8:1-4
[1], THERE IS THEREFOE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[2], FOR THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS HAS MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN [breaking God's Law] AND DEATH [Sins penalty - Romans 6:23].
[3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[4], THAT THE RIGHTOUESNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

ROMANS 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

Sorry my friend God's WORD disagrees with you.

Swell quotes and lots of 'em. But which one, if any said anything about being delivered from the penalty of sin? I did see a single one in your quotes.

 

[mmksparbud]

Why have you quoted Rev 22:14 to me. The Tree of Life is in heaven. Surely if one gets into heaven they have that right which you claim comes only from obeying the famous 10.

No---Again-God judges the heart those 10 are followed in spirit and in truth. It is the love of God that keeps you following His 10 through that love that reflects the very nature of the character of God in our lives. That is what gives you access to that Tree of Life.

 

[ace of hearts]

ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR THROUGH THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Knowledge, yes - conviction, no.

God's LAW (10 Commandments) gives us the KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is when broken*ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and RIGHTEOUSNESS when obeyed PSALMS 119:172.

Knowledge, yes - conviction, no.

All those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD.

This known unrepentant sin you talk about is... And I suppose you want a comment on your references, so - I understand the Hebrews one and the Rom one doesn't connect.

If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. We are all sick with sin and need a Physician *MATTHEW 9:12-13. JESUS says arise take up your bed and walk. I believe him. How about you?

James isn't talking about works of the law. Read the chapter for context. So your condemnation is noted with starting with Mat 3. I can't believe you have the guts to refer Eph 2. Yes you need a physician. I 've taken up my bed and walked.

Get a dictionary or use Google. Eliminate or bring an end to; stop; terminate; destroy; eradicate; annihilate; cancel; erase; delete; recind; repeal; retract; discontinue. (Source). Abolish has nothing to do with something that never existed. If something never existed it could not be Abolished.

I used the proper word for my response which is included in the definition even you post.

I share God's WORD not my own words so my testimony is true. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it in place of our own words *ROMANS 3:4. If you claim God's LAW has been ABOLISHED you have no KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is. God's WORD says that SIN is breaking ANY ONE of GOD'S 10 Commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 and All those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27. God's 4th Commandmetns is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is if we KNOWINGLY break it just like any other of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN and in danger of the judgment. Sorry God's WORD disagrees with you.

Nothing but repeated filler here.

ROMANS 7:12 [12], WHEREFORE THE LAW IS HOLY, THE COMMANDMENT, HOLY JUST AND GOOD.

Agreed!

You are confused it is SIN or BREAKING GOD'S LAW *JAMES 2:10-11 that brings CONDEMNATION and DEATH and SEPARATION from GOD not God's LAW or he would never have given it to give us a KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is *ROMANS 3:20.

No I'm not confused, no thanks to your effort to do so. You sub in God's Law when you mean specifically the famous 10 which were added because of sin until the Seed (Jesus) came 430 years after Abraham. Gal 3

ISAIAH 59:2 BUT YOUR SINS HAVE SEPARATED YOU AND YOUR GOD AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR YOU

Your sins have separated us.

PROVERBS 28:9 HE THAT TURNS AWAY FROM HEARING THE LAW EVEN HIS PRAYER SHALL BE AN ABOMINATION.

For those who don't accept Jesus as their Messiah, yes and Amen. For those who have accepted Jesus as Savoir no and Amen!!

1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], AND HEREBY WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [4], HE THAT SAYS I KNOW HIM AND KEEPS NOT HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

The commandments of Jesus, yes and Amen! For those following the law (famous 10) no and Amen.

REVELATIONS 14:12 HERE IS THE PATIANCE OF THE SAINTS. HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND THE FAITH OF JESUS.

Personally I don't think you understand either item in this passage.

You words above disagree with the God's WORD you are quoting from.

No they don't. God's Word is consistent and in perfect agreement.

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

So you have a problem. Yes I do care, but you won't listen.

 

[ace of hearts]

You are confused, stating something is not true is not accusing anyone of lying. A lie is when someone knows the truth and knowingly says something that is not the truth. If someone state something is not true it is not accusing the other person of lying.

It would make a long post just to list the posts.

Not at all. I believe and follow all of God's WORD. It is your interpretation of the scripture that you use that I disagree with because you take them out of context as already shown to you in many posts already (e.g. Romans 7:6 (1); Romans 7:6 (2); Romans 7:6 (3); Romans 7:6 (4)).

No out of context from me on this verse. Truth is you seriously need to dismiss it. It's a real thorn in your side.

No one can claim to BELIEVE God's WORD by rejecting the scriptures and not following them *JAMES 2:18-20; 26.

I don't reject anything in James 2.