Why is the Church weak?

[Gunny]

Denominations (and non-denominations, which are really just a denomination of one) don't make the church weak. They have denominations in Africa and Asia where the church is strong. It is fear and distraction that makes our churches weak in the West. The churches know that people have too many distractions and an overblown sense of self-importance and they fear giving them a reason to leave. So, the church preaches weakness and tolerance of sin and begs people to help others, because that's easier than convicting the memebrship of its own sin. A church full of people who understand their own sinful natures and know the importance of Jesus and the cross is strong--denomination or not.

Amen and Amen.

 

[joshuanazar]

I think that we can see by the number of church goers who pass from many different diseases that God does not always heal. I really doubt that you know or can say what is the will of God.

If you are judging the strength of a church by an ABUNDANCE of healings and miracles, than you are NOT judging a church on God's set of criteria, which is the Word, but your own set of criteria. God's criteria is different then yours.

Do you worship the Lord without ceasing? That would be constantly. I doubt this as no one does.

As far as overcoming the powers of darkness, actually that will not be done until Christ's return. Christ is the only one ABLE to overcome darkness because satan is too strong for us.

Healings and miracles are not the only criteria that I am judging by I also sited our lack of prosecution that Jesus said we will face. The criteria is the Word of God and everything that I laid out in bold print is from his Word. His word said that we are healed. Every act of healing, redemption, and deliverance was finished by Jesus when he hung on the cross. He said himself "it is finished." There is no arguing with what is clearly said.
As for overcoming the powers of darkness, did not Jesus do this to by his death when he overcame these powers securing the keys to death hell and the grave? Jesus said "be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world" that includes this world's prince. Satan is to strong for a weakened church. But Jesus gave us the victory. We have the same authority that Jesus has. He gave it to us when he reconciled us into his family and made us joint-heirs with him.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Healings and miracles are not the only criteria that I am judging by I also sited our lack of prosecution that Jesus said we will face. The criteria is the Word of God and everything that I laid out in bold print is from his Word. His word said that we are healed. Every act of healing, redemption, and deliverance was finished by Jesus when he hung on the cross. He said himself "it is finished." There is no arguing with what is clearly said.
As for overcoming the powers of darkness, did not Jesus do this to by his death when he overcame these powers securing the keys to death hell and the grave? Jesus said "be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world" that includes this world's prince. Satan is to strong for a weakened church. But Jesus gave us the victory. We have the same authority that Jesus has. He gave it to us when he reconciled us into his family and made us joint-heirs with him.

What I actually said was:

That if you are using miracles and healing to judge whether the church is weak, than you are not using the right criteria.

Jesus clearly left us direction before His death.

He clarified for us what was most important. Jesus said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" and 'in this you will fulfill all of the Law".

My point was that the importance you place on miracles and healings is not what Jesus specifically told believers was most important.

I try to read twice, the second time much slower and then reply.

The Word also outlines what we are to look at with Christians. It is the fruit of the spirit.

 

[joshuanazar]

Ok, why is everyone focusing on the over abundance of healings and miracles part and seem to be ignoring everything else that I've said? I've seen people about to lose faith over an illness or financial problems. Anyone who has been in church for at least a year have seen these things. There will be trials in this life. But how can we show the faith that will move kings in unexpected ways? How can we still keep faith when our very life is on the line? How will our faith reveal to the world that God is alive. How can we have this kind of mountain moving faith when it is so easily choked out by things that we shouldn't even be worrying about in the first place? The Church is weak and there is no denying it. The vast majority of us do not actually put our faith in God, but in the religious traditions that are weakening us. We ask the pastor to pray for us thinking that his faith will reach God, and when we do not see God's deliverance we claim it is not God's will. God has made it clear that he only has good things in store for us. I am begging the church to invite God to reveal his grace in every aspect of our lives. Through him we will find strength.

 

[joshuanazar]

What I actually said was:

That if you are using miracles and healing to judge whether the church is weak, than you are not using the right criteria.

Jesus clearly left us direction before His death.

He clarified for us what was most important. Jesus said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" and 'in this you will fulfill all of the Law".

My point was that the importance you place on miracles and healings is not what Jesus specifically told believers was most important.

I try to read twice, the second time much slower and then reply.

The Word also outlines what we are to look at with Christians. It is the fruit of the spirit.

I agree with everything you just said. But the signs of weakness that are visible in the church is not just a lack of healings and miracles. There is a huge list that I cannot even begin to write. We are not all where we should, be perfection is not for this world. But honestly ask yourself. Are you where God wants you to be right now? Spiritually speaking that is. Now God isn't going to want us to do something that we cannot do, so he isn't going to be unjust and expect us to be in a place that we cannot be. If you are like the majority of us, then you, like me, are not where we should be. Now take into consideration that the majority of the church are not where we should be. That is why we are weak. The only answer is to focus everything that we have within us on the amazing person of Jesus Christ and his unfailing grace that he has for us. We need his help to do it.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I agree with everything you just said. But the signs of weakness that are visible in the church is not just a lack of healings and miracles. There is a huge list that I cannot even begin to write. We are not all where we should, be perfection is not for this world. But honestly ask yourself. Are you where God wants you to be right now? Spiritually speaking that is. Now God isn't going to want us to do something that we cannot do, so he isn't going to be unjust and expect us to be in a place that we cannot be. If you are like the majority of us, then you, like me, are not where we should be. Now take into consideration that the majority of the church are not where we should be. That is why we are weak. The only answer is to focus everything that we have within us on the amazing person of Jesus Christ and his unfailing grace that he has for us. We need his help to do it.

I understand what your overall point is, however I can only do what I can in my life and help other people out, trying to edify other Christians and moving for God that which is in the realm of my control.

There have been many of these types of posts and you are not the first to write one that I've participated in. I however know that it is each of us that makes the church.

What I think is this:

1. if your church is not preaching the gospel, should you be there?
2. if the church you attend does not put a big focus on Christians being there for each other and edifying each other, should you be there?
3. if you hear more about 'judgement' than 'love', should you be there?
4. if the focus is on signs and wonders, but you wonder how many people are even saved, should you be there.

I still testify to my belief that each of us must stand and support a church that is headed in the right direction. If there were not believers supporting bad churches, bad churches per se would not survive.

I've heard excuse after excuse like

1. but my church has great worship
2. my entire family attends
3. my kids love their bible school
4. yes people there gossip to much, but I just ignore it

It's when God's people STOP supporting lukewarm churches that I think that will make a huge difference. That's my 2 cents worth.

 

[joshuanazar]

I understand what your overall point is, however I can only do what I can in my life and help other people out, trying to edify other Christians and moving for God that which is in the realm of my control.

There have been many of these types of posts and you are not the first to write one that I've participated in. I however know that it is each of us that makes the church.

What I think is this:

1. if your church is not preaching the gospel, should you be there?
2. if the church you attend does not put a big focus on Christians being there for each other and edifying each other, should you be there?
3. if you hear more about 'judgement' than 'love', should you be there?
4. if the focus is on signs and wonders, but you wonder how many people are even saved, should you be there.

I still testify to my belief that each of us must stand and support a church that is headed in the right direction. If there were not believers supporting bad churches, bad churches per se would not survive.

I've heard excuse after excuse like

1. but my church has great worship
2. my entire family attends
3. my kids love their bible school
4. yes people there gossip to much, but I just ignore it

It's when God's people STOP supporting lukewarm churches that I think that will make a huge difference. That's my 2 cents worth.

Thank you, Sister. I appreciate what you are saying. My church does preach love and practice it more often then can be expected. Though they are not perfect, no church is. I am speaking from my experiences of many different churches. I have seen a complacency in a lot of churches. And I have seen that this complacency stems from religious traditions.

I see that a lot of these lukewarm churches are being supported by baby christians that do not know what they are doing because they have been deceived by these traditions. Traditions like:
1. A subtle stressing of coming to the altar in church (a concept not supported by scripture, the true altar is within our hearts). I have seen this lead to some people deep down believing that they can only reach God at the altar.
2. I have seen a general lack of faith when it comes to praying and believing whether or not God hears us. We do not need a pastor or more people to better get God's attention.
3. I have seen people compartmentalize their lives in regards to God. We focus on "God's house" and "God's time", not aware that we are his house and every second of our time belongs to God. We do what we think God wants during service and after we do what we want.
4. I see Jesus Christ and that he is the answer. I feel as if I should try my best to snap people out of complacency and religion.

Going on about the problems, I admit, is not productive. We are all beautifully different, and we see different problems from different angles. If we as the church focus on this we will argue and split. However, all that truly have a relationship with Jesus will see the same answer. Let's talk about this answer?

 

[pescador]

Paul was THE apostle to the gentiles. That was Paul's role given to him by Christ.

Paul had full authority as an apostle and as Paul FOUNDED EACH one of those churches during Paul's Missionary journeys, I think Paul had more than enough authority to correct them.

A judgement is an opinion. Paul had the knowledge of the gospel and how it was related to the gentiles. That is not a judgement when Paul corrected the church.

This is entirely correct. Paul founded the churches to which he wrote (except for the church in Rome). He had a perfect right and obligation to oversee their faith and behavior just like a parent has with their child.