LDS why is the BOM in King James English

[Tra Phull]

And not 1830's American English?

I have read the "rock in the hat" story.

There is a difference between 1769 King James English and 1830's American English. If JS was really "seeing" a "translation" in the hat - what was the purpose of him seeing this outdated English?

My theory is that the whole "translation" stuff is false; that JS made it sound like the KJV so it would "sound holy" - "sound like the Bible" etc.

My purpose is to create awareness among Nicene Christians of how absurd the alleged "translation" process is. If the handful of Mormons here can offer any explanation which will show why the BOM came to be in the language of King James English rather than the 1830's American English, let it come.

I have learned much since 2013 when I first came here as Anto9us. Phoebe and drstevej have brought out much to me, the Mormons themselves have made me see their faith not as some benign variant but rather a true cult of outlandish origins.

So why the King James English and not 1830's American English?
If it was God Almighty driving the "translation" - how did BOM arrive in language from many many decades earlier?

 

[Ironhold]

At the time, if anyone had a copy of the Bible in English, dollars to donuts it was the KJV. Anything that wasn't translated into that form of English would have come off as alien and bizarre to anyone who heard it.

 

[Tra Phull]

So God deliberately caused the "translation" to come about in archaic language?

 

[Tra Phull]

It wasn't supposed to be another copy of the Bible, it was supposed to be fresh revelation, right?
And yet except for the word "Bible" itself, it's all archaic language - "alien and bizarre" to the time being written.

Is it hard to imagine that BOM is simply a fraud? That the entire cockamaime rock in the hat story is a put on?

 

[redleghunter]

And not 1830's American English?

I have read the "rock in the hat" story.

There is a difference between 1769 King James English and 1830's American English. If JS was really "seeing" a "translation" in the hat - what was the purpose of him seeing this outdated English?

My theory is that the whole "translation" stuff is false; that JS made it sound like the KJV so it would "sound holy" - "sound like the Bible" etc.

My purpose is to create awareness among Nicene Christians of how absurd the alleged "translation" process is. If the handful of Mormons here can offer any explanation which will show why the BOM came to be in the language of King James English rather than the 1830's American English, let it come.

I have learned much since 2013 when I first came here as Anto9us. Phoebe and drstevej have brought out much to me, the Mormons themselves have made me see their faith not as some benign variant but rather a true cult of outlandish origins.

So why the King James English and not 1830's American English?
If it was God Almighty driving the "translation" - how did BOM arrive in language from many many decades earlier?

Street cred?

 

[drstevej]

Joseph was using an KJV English-Hat

 

[He is the way]

And not 1830's American English?

I have read the "rock in the hat" story.

There is a difference between 1769 King James English and 1830's American English. If JS was really "seeing" a "translation" in the hat - what was the purpose of him seeing this outdated English?

My theory is that the whole "translation" stuff is false; that JS made it sound like the KJV so it would "sound holy" - "sound like the Bible" etc.

My purpose is to create awareness among Nicene Christians of how absurd the alleged "translation" process is. If the handful of Mormons here can offer any explanation which will show why the BOM came to be in the language of King James English rather than the 1830's American English, let it come.

I have learned much since 2013 when I first came here as Anto9us. Phoebe and drstevej have brought out much to me, the Mormons themselves have made me see their faith not as some benign variant but rather a true cult of outlandish origins.

So why the King James English and not 1830's American English?
If it was God Almighty driving the "translation" - how did BOM arrive in language from many many decades earlier?

In my opinion the fact that the Book of Mormon was written in the more difficult language of the King James English in just 65 working days while Joseph Smith was in his 20's is indeed greater proof of it's truthfulness. Not only that but Joseph Smith had no written material with him when he dictated the Book of Mormon. It is truly a marvelous work, one foretold bu Isaiah:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 29:11 - 14)

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

 

[Tra Phull]

No written material?

I thought he had metal plates inscribed in"Reformed Egyptian", which as far as we know, never actually existed.

This rock in the hat jazz gets curiouser and curiouser.

I think it was fabrication rather than translation.
Fraud. Fake.

 

[Tra Phull]

There is a lot of Isaiah verbatim in BOM - I mean in KJ English. About 3 chapters, right?

It is attributed to Isaiah, it's not plagiarism, it's just filler to me.

I certainly do not think HITW' s Isaiah quote has anything to do with BOM

 

[mmksparbud]

In my opinion the fact that the Book of Mormon was written in the more difficult language of the King James English in just 65 working days while Joseph Smith was in his 20's is indeed greater proof of it's truthfulness. Not only that but Joseph Smith had no written material with him when he dictated the Book of Mormon. It is truly a marvelous work, one foretold bu Isaiah:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 29:11 - 14)

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

God has spoken to many people---never once did He have anyone translate anything from some obscure foreign language. When a prophet had heard from God, he wrote everything down in his own language according to how his people at the time spoke it. The only translation ever needed was the writing on the wall---no rock in a hat needed.
You weren't there and his cronies would say anything---however, it is extremely telling that even the mistakes in the KJV are there. No, He just copied it and he did it very cleverly, I will say that. But shyster no less. What makes anyone think he didn't smuggle in already copied material?

 

[Tra Phull]

What about the SPECIAL GLASSES?

Urim and Thummim in some versions of the "translation accounts", which vary like moving goalposts.

Behold and see how BOM allegedly came to be.

 

[He is the way]

No written material?

I thought he had metal plates inscribed in"Reformed Egyptian", which as far as we know, never actually existed.

This rock in the hat jazz gets curiouser and curiouser.

I think it was fabrication rather than translation.
Fraud. Fake.

Like I said "no written material" Joseph only used the plates for the Book of Lehi which was NOT included in the Book of Mormon. Have you read the Book of Mormon? How much do you really know about the Book of Mormon?

 

[He is the way]

God has spoken to many people---never once did He have anyone translate anything from some obscure foreign language. When a prophet had heard from God, he wrote everything down in his own language according to how his people at the time spoke it. The only translation ever needed was the writing on the wall---no rock in a hat needed.
You weren't there and his cronies would say anything---however, it is extremely telling that even the mistakes in the KJV are there. No, He just copied it and he did it very cleverly, I will say that. But shyster no less. What makes anyone think he didn't smuggle in already copied material?

There were many witnesses to the Book of Mormon. Were they all liars? Can it be proven? Opinions are not facts.

 

[Tra Phull]

I have read most of it.
I know more than I want to know about it.

Before I came to these threads, Mormonism to me was just different Christians who had strange beliefs and allegedly other scripture that came from JS and special glasses. Now, per C.F. Rules, I cannot even say Mormons are Christians. So be it.

At first, I read BOM up to the point somewhere in 2 Nephi where black people were that way because they were CURSED. It disgusted me.
I later read almost all BOM.

I see no reason to read further in it, HITW, or any other JS writings. I do indeed see JS as a shyster, fake and fraud. What part of that do you not understand?

Per the rules of this forum, Nicene Christians ask questions of those of other religions, and they can answer. It is not in your current purview to grill me on my knowledge of BOM, you got that?

 

[mmksparbud]

There were many witnesses to the Book of Mormon. Were they all liars? Can it be proven? Opinions are not facts.

At the same time, only he was behind the curtain translating. Nobody frisked him to make sure he didn't sneak something in, so it's all opinion.

 

[Tra Phull]

Interesting, mmksparbud, when you say that EVEN THE MISTAKES of KJV got into BOM.

 

[mmksparbud]

Interesting, mmksparbud, when you say that EVEN THE MISTAKES of KJV got into BOM.

I did a very prayerful reading of the book---From the 1st 2 sentences, it screamed fake. Not only that it is trying to sound "biblical", but it also sounds very shallow, very childlike---it's like reading the Quran---has no substance. With the bible there are hidden meanings. God is very methodical, He loves math! I loathe it! But I value the mathematicians mind, as I feel their brains work in a more Godly way. Numbers have much meaning throughout the bible. It always slays me when these people find these groups of numbers in so many passages adding up to something interesting---nothing remotely similar in the BOM.
Also, biblical names had meanings. People didn't just make up names for their children. They were a description of that child was. And many times God would change their names because they had grown and their characters had changed under His direction. These are a bunch of meaningless names. I might be wrong, I can't remember and I get the books mixed up, but I don't remember any name having a meaning to it as they do in the bible.

 

[Tra Phull]

My name is Ira, means watchful or wakeful in Hebrew. 3 Ira' s in the Bible - all in King David's army. One was a chaplain.

 

[Darkhorse]

I did a very prayerful reading of the book---From the 1st 2 sentences, it screamed fake. Not only that it is trying to sound "biblical", but it also sounds very shallow, very childlike---it's like reading the Quran---has no substance.

I had the same experience, with both the BOM and the Quran.

 

[Peter1000]

God has spoken to many people---never once did He have anyone translate anything from some obscure foreign language. When a prophet had heard from God, he wrote everything down in his own language according to how his people at the time spoke it. The only translation ever needed was the writing on the wall---no rock in a hat needed.
You weren't there and his cronies would say anything---however, it is extremely telling that even the mistakes in the KJV are there. No, He just copied it and he did it very cleverly, I will say that. But shyster no less. What makes anyone think he didn't smuggle in already copied material?

Because for 200 years they have not been able to find it. Digging and digging and digging and they have found nothing that he smuggled in already copied material. Nothing.