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At Paul's level of persecution, he had a point.Well.. is it so wrong?
Paul would have agreed
1 Corinthians 15
The scenario posed isn't as simple as one might think; in fact, if there is no afterlife, there is no Christ, and so it is all a ruse, and an empty 'joy' in this life. In other words, though the question is intended to make one think, or to separate the two components —that of our expected joy-to-come vs the joy of knowing Christ in this life— the question is bogus.Well.. is it so wrong?
Paul would have agreed
1 Corinthians 15
The tone of what you are saying sounds like you are disagreeing with me —even correcting me— but what you are saying seems to be merely adding to or giving another point of view of the same thing as I am saying. Is it that? Or something else?Jesus was speaking to unconverted Jews before His crucifixion and resurrection. He promised that for those who received Him, the Helper, who is the Holy Spirit, who will be in them, will bring to remembrance all that Jesus taught them and will lead them into all truth. Paul says that eye has not seen nor ear heart the things that God has for us, but they have been clearly revealed. The Holy Spirit does not speak to us in parables. The Apostle John says that the Anointing, the Holy Spirit, will teach us all things.
So, the account of Jesus teaching in parables, is part of the descriptive historical narrative about the life and teaching of Jesus to the unconverted Jews. It does not apply to converted Christian believers, because there is nothing in the text to say that it should be prescriptive to believers who will have the indwelling Holy Spirit on and after the Day of Pentecost.
We need to be careful not to try to apply Biblical text that is not intended to apply directly to us. To say that Jesus is deliberately deceiving us by teaching the Jews in parables is just sheer nonsense and butchering the Scripture text to try to make it mean something that it doesn't.
I understand that it is hard for us to wrap our head around. This idea of a life with no afterlife. But, between the lines, the question is about whether Christians came to Christ mostly out of fear of the afterlife, (the threat of hell), or because they wanted a healed relationship with God and the benefits in the here and now.@Saint Steven
The scenario posed isn't as simple as one might think; in fact, if there is no afterlife, there is no Christ, and so it is all a ruse, and an empty 'joy' in this life. In other words, though the question is intended to make one think, or to separate the two components —that of our expected joy-to-come vs the joy of knowing Christ in this life— the question is bogus.
This is what I'm thinking Paul was referring to, concerning the resurrection. It's not that this life is not in itself rewarding enough to pursue Christ; as he says, "For to me to live is Christ".
I understand that it is hard for us to wrap our head around. This idea of a life with no afterlife. But, between the lines, the question is about whether Christians came to Christ mostly out of fear of the afterlife, (the threat of hell), or because they wanted a healed relationship with God and the benefits in the here and now.
All I am doing is reading the actual text and saying who was saying it, and to whom He is saying it. It is historical narrative which describes the life, teaching, death and resurrection of Christ. It is not written to us as prescribed instruction for us. It is written for us, so that we have enough information about Him to enable us to believe and trust in Him for our salvation. Historical narrative is not a reliable basis for Christian doctrine, unless the text states directly that it is.The tone of what you are saying sounds like you are disagreeing with me —even correcting me— but what you are saying seems to be merely adding to or giving another point of view of the same thing as I am saying. Is it that? Or something else?
Right. I understand the purpose for which the question was meant. But I don't think that is what Paul was addressing.I understand that it is hard for us to wrap our head around. This idea of a life with no afterlife. But, between the lines, the question is about whether Christians came to Christ mostly out of fear of the afterlife, (the threat of hell), or because they wanted a healed relationship with God and the benefits in the here and now.
Yes. That seemed to be the point. And begs the question: Is that salvation?Well we found out from the survey I did and a similar one by someone else, that many said they came to Jesus to escape hell.
Something I can't relate to since I was practically born knowing Jesus.
Yes. That seemed to be the point. And begs the question: Is that salvation?
Yes. That seemed to be the point. And begs the question: Is that salvation?
Is it salvation if Jesus is basically just a get out hell free card, ticket to heaven, good luck charm to someone?
People who tithe to pay "fire insurance" falls along the same lines.
I'm sure there have been times when the church said that's exactly what tithing kept them from going to hell.
At Paul's level of persecution, he had a point.
But I don't think he would have sided with the majority on the CF topic survey.
The Holy Spirit has all kinds of ways to get people to Christ. He can draw with the bands of love, or He can wave the big stick. Either way, the person ends up believing in Jesus, receiving Him as Saviour. Then as they grow in grace and in the knowledge of God, they gain a deeper understanding of Jesus in the Gospel and their faith moves beyond mere "fire insurance".Yes. That seemed to be the point. And begs the question: Is that salvation?
some like to think this is their best life.......and it probably will be.Well ultimately I think the promise of salvation is inseparably connected to why we would love and choose to serve God. So it was a question that was kind of a thought exercise I suppose, but I don't think God would expect us to serve and love Him if all He had for us was this one mortal life on this cursed Earth. Paul seemed to think "if this is it? and we sacrifice what pleasures are available to us just to die and that's all? We're even more miserable than other people"
Cause I mean, Paul's ministry got him lashed and imprisoned and even stoned to near death. If it was just this one life? Yeah Paul would consider himself miserable.
It does for the person who dies, if they are a unbeliever!Yes, it is fuzzy by design. It has been done that way, to sort the wheat from the chaff.
That's the sort of thing that prevented me from ever becoming a Baptist. And it's the sort of thing thtat puts people off reading the Bible.I've always liked the old adage that BIBLE is an acronym for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.
If denying ourselves "worldly pleasures" is misery, why do it? Does God want us to be miserable? Is that the abundant life he promised?He said we, not just himself. the fact that Christians in general are to deny themselves worldly pleasures is enough to say if there's not something greater than this life, then we were all wasting our time.
I call the "fire insurance" spiritual extortion. Believe or burn.The Holy Spirit has all kinds of ways to get people to Christ. He can draw with the bands of love, or He can wave the big stick. Either way, the person ends up believing in Jesus, receiving Him as Saviour. Then as they grow in grace and in the knowledge of God, they gain a deeper understanding of Jesus in the Gospel and their faith moves beyond mere "fire insurance".
Having the knowledge of Jesus almost from birth is a good thing, and obviously as an adult, you believe in Him. So, at some stage in your young life, you realised who this bloke Jesus really is and you decided to put your faith in Him and never looked back since that.
some like to think this is their best life.......and it probably will be.
earthmover
If denying ourselves "worldly pleasures" is misery, why do it? Does God want us to be miserable? Is that the abundant life he promised?
That's the sort of thing that prevented me from ever becoming a Baptist. And it's the sort of thing thtat puts people off reading the Bible.
They go, "Ah, here is the Instruction Manual", and start reading it, on page 1 of course, looking for divine inspiration. Along about about the middle of Exodus or so, they realize that they're read a bunch of stories from ancient times and a fair bit of history, all revolving around the relationship between God and the Hebrews. A lot of the stuff they read is just barely credible, if at all, to 21st century minds. Instructions of any kind are scarce to the point of nonexistence, and there's no clue what any of this stuff has to do with Christianity, especially seeing how Christ Himself doesn't show up until a few hundred pages later. All too often the formerly eager reader puts the book down, and in too many cases never picks it up again.
Just me, but I never recommend that anyone read the Old Testament unless they're completely checked out on the Gospels, and understand the basic premises of the Faith. Studying a catechism with good cross references, preferably with the aid of a good catechist, couldn't hurt.
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