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I've asked you to show me where scripture talks about eternal torment, which was your claim. If you can't, you can't.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
I actually agree with many points you are making here.Because it's about Him, not us.
That's why.
Let's look at John 11, the story of Lazarus
So let's break that down. Jesus loved Lazarus, but instead of going to help him when he was sick, and Jesus had the power to do so, He healed many who were sick, Jesus procrastinated.
Jesus let Lazarus die.
He loved Lazarus, but let him die.
Lazarus even means "God will help" But here, at least on the surface, God refused to help.
Why? Because resurrecting someone from the dead, brings more glory to God, than healing someone who is sick.
Now jumping down a bit, Jesus has now told his disciples that Lazarus was dead and was going to see him.
So we see, that yes, Jesus let Lazarus die, and said no to helping him while he was still alive. But it was not something that He enjoyed having to do. This was not light or frivolous, it was to greater establish that He is the Son of God and He is the resurrection and the life.
So God is neither a genie in a bottle giving us everything we wish
Nor is God a playground bully, He actually does care, even if He causes us to suffer for a season.
He does what is greatest for His own glory, but at the same time... I have to believe that He will make it worth it for us as well, because He does care.
I just wish the bible was less fuzzy on that part.
Because if your only promise is to see the person who refused to help you when you needed it.... that's not much of a reward.
I don't know how, because the bible is fuzzy on it, but I believe God would make it up to Lazarus in a way to have made his suffering and perhaps two deaths (unless he was raptured to not die the second time, the bible doesn't mention it) worth it.... and more so than just, seeing the God that let you die perhaps twice.
Nah, I just explained it poorly.simply "souls" already tells me that they have an unbiblical view on eternity that poses problems from the getgo
Because the promise is a physical resurrection, and a new earth.
I actually agree with many points you are making here.
But wanted to respond by saying Jesus couldn't heal anyone.
Only God can do that.
John 5:19 NIV
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Nah, I just explained it poorly.
The part God created, is separated from the sin that he didn't create by the lake of fire, the all consuming presence of His love.
But those who are purified in this manner are less self aware than a newborn baby, so the "sinner" still dies.
which does not support at all a personality and memory wipe.12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
The "we" in 1st Corinthians 13 relates to born again Christians.Do you have scripture to support this particular idea? Because what's ringing in my head right now is "we shall know as we are known"
although Paul uses the singular I in the verse itself
1 Corinthians 13
which does not support at all a personality and memory wipe.
Okay, so, what about those who do not believe on Christ.
What happens to them?
How is it "universalism" if it has a condition attached to it?
I dislike to believe many other Christian's version of heaven, because what it is, is actually 2 hells. One has less fire maybe, but still you're just supposed to suffer doing something that maybe you hate forever and ever, which isn't a lot better.
Annihilationism would be preferable to that.
While that is true in some respect, I am referring to something else.Jesus is God, that's kind of the entire main point of Revelation to reveal that Jesus is God come in the flesh.
The "we" in 1st Corinthians 13 relates to born again Christians.
For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17)
Judgment begins with us, but at some point in the future, Jesus will say "behold I make all things new" - this is after all the contents are emptied into the lake of fire. So at that point, those cleansed in the lake of pur, will be made into something or someone new.
The salvation covenant is to determine who will be the rulers alongside God.
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:7)
Whom will God show his generosity to through us in the "coming ages?"
"According to Christian universalism, no one comes to salvation except through belief and faith in Jesus." But there is not one single vs. which states this can or will happen after death.According to Christian universalism, no one comes to salvation except through belief and faith in Jesus. You're going to have to learn how it actually works, if you want to effectively argue against it. And it's not difficult to figure out. I myself am not a universalist. I just understand how it works. But I find myself replying in support of the doctrine of Christian universalism because of the bad arguments I see against it.
Hebrews 9:27 doesn't really allow for that.
Hebrews 9:27 is about the only rebuttal of its kind which is why it's exclusively used so much. I'm sure you know that an argument that can only be sustained by one verse is considered weak. And it doesn't even shoot down the concept of progressive salvation. We know that everyone is going to face judgement after they die. Many Christians dread the fact that they're going to face judgement. But is that judgement final? Will there be no growth and progression for us afterwards? Are we going to be stuck in the same place for eternity? No advancement for us believers whatsoever?
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Hebrews 9:27 is about the only rebuttal of its kind which is why it's exclusively used so much. I'm sure you know that an argument that can only be sustained by one verse is considered weak. And it doesn't even shoot down the concept of progressive salvation. We know that everyone is going to face judgement after they die. Many Christians dread the fact that they're going to face judgement. But is that judgement final? Will there be no growth and progression for us afterwards? Are we going to be stuck in the same place for eternity? No advancement for us believers whatsoever?
The problem with Revelation is it uses a lot of exaggerated figurative hyperbolic apocalyptic language and it's very hard to follow. That's why there's so many different interpretations of it. And it's not known for sure who wrote it. When it comes to the "lake of fire" there's no way to compare scripture with scripture, because such a place/thing is not mentioned by any other author of scripture.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
well the author is John. Traditionally the Apostle, though I guess if you want to doubt the word of God you can start by doubting authorship I suppose.
How is that NOT all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what, even after death?
Okay, so, what about those who do not believe on Christ.
What happens to them?
How is it "universalism" if it has a condition attached to it?
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