Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

Jamdoc said:

in the text, the symbols are explained, like the 7 horns the lamb has Revelation 5 explains they are the 7 spirits of God.

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Yes, and those things themselves are symbols, so they don't explain anything.

Jamdoc said:

There is little meaning to salvation if we are not saved FROM something.

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Why does that something have to be eternal hell-fire?

Are there any Old Testament Messianic prophecies that say anything about Him saving us from eternal hell-fire? Did Paul say Jesus saves us from hell-fire?

Jamdoc said:

in the text, the symbols are explained, like the 7 horns the lamb has Revelation 5 explains they are the 7 spirits of God.

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Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.


Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


From the prophet Joel. Now whilst Acts doesn't explain what those symbols are, it does make it clear that they are symbolic.


You're welcome!

MMXX said:

Why does that something have to be eternal hell-fire?

Are there any Old Testament Messianic prophecies that say anything about Him saving us from eternal hell-fire? Did Paul say Jesus saves us from hell-fire?

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Because, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Jamdoc said:

it's a game so simple a child can figure it out if you want to look at it as a game. I mean there are simplistic systems like "the ABC's of salvation" out there, Jesus Himself said that you have to become like a child (total trust, total belief), and Paul referred to it as "the simplicity that is in Christ"

So.. what's the motivation to sharing the Gospel if you believe everyone makes it anyway?

Universalists believe there isn't a judgement or that the consequences of it at least are not eternal, everyone eventually "makes it" That means there's nothing on the line without sharing the Gospel with someone, because they'll "make it" and it'll be worth whatever they suffered, God will wipe away every tear.

Atheists believe there isn't a judgement at all, they just cease to exist, so they live wickedly without shame. Obviously they don't have a gospel to share.

Annihilationists believe the worst thing that can happen is ... simply what the Atheists expect to happen.. so what's the point of preaching the Gospel? It's almost as if there were no judgement.

ECT has urgency to share the gospel, because they know everyone's on their way to ECT and they don't want that for everyone, so they receive the good news that in Christ they can avoid ECT and in fact join Christ in heaven and on the New Earth.... and they want to spread that message so that other people can learn this message of hope. Knowing there is a judgement, and it can be absolutely horrible, but there's a way for your sins to be forgiven rather than being judged by them.

So there's a judgement, and an urgency to share the Gospel.
I just wish I was better at it.

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What about all the Christians who have a powerful testimony of all the things they were saved from in this life through accepting Jesus? Why does the Old Testament talk so much about salvation, but doesn't say anything about eternal hell?
Why does David in Psalm 51 say “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation", when Moses and the prophets never said anything about eternal damnation in hell-fire?

Jamdoc said:

So.. what's the motivation to sharing the Gospel if you believe everyone makes it anyway?

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That's a good question. I hope you will ask more of these rather than display your ignorance on the subject, as you have been. I don't expect you to believe in UR, but at least make an effort to understand it. I'll give you a lot of credit if you do. (for what it's worth)

To answer your wonderful question, I have a few things to say.
1) Following Jesus has value in this lifetime.
2) I question the faith of someone who joined the church solely to avoid hell.
3) Those who enter the afterlife without a restored relationship with God will have a more difficult process of restoration. Jesus said it would be better to go into the afterlife without a hand or an eye. That sounds pretty serious.
4) Salvation isn't limited to the Evangelical formula. See the scripture below.

Romans 2:14-15 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

MMXX said:

What about all the Christians who have a powerful testimony of all the things they were saved from in this life through accepting Jesus? Why does the Old Testament talk so much about salvation, but doesn't say anything about eternal hell?
Why does David in Psalm 51 say “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation", when Moses and the prophets never said anything about eternal damnation in hell-fire?

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Yep. You would at least expect him to have warned Jezebel, but he didn't.

Hmm said:

Hey, this is my thread and that means that I supply all the humour that's required. Demarcation mate!

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Humor?
You can't even spell it! - lol

Hmm said:

England: humour
US: humor
England: What's this about?
US: Getting rid of u.

Some historical justification in that!

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Y'all are still upset that we didn't invite you to the tea party in Boston harbor.

Hmm said:

Probably! It's very hard to forgive someone who deliberately didn't invite you to their party. It's been a few years since I was last invited to the local Team Hell's annual ball. I used to look forward to the symbolic burning of real-life unbiblical-Christians (subject to availability) but I'm trying very hard to forgive them and I hope to be universally restored to their invitation list soon.

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I hear the music selection ranges from Hell's Bells to Disco Inferno.

MMXX said:

What about all the Christians who have a powerful testimony of all the things they were saved from in this life through accepting Jesus? Why does the Old Testament talk so much about salvation, but doesn't say anything about eternal hell?
Why does David in Psalm 51 say “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation", when Moses and the prophets never said anything about eternal damnation in hell-fire?

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No?
¢¢Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.
Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “ Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his
angels:” Matthew 25:41
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28- 31.
…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment[Matt 25:46]” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

Jamdoc said:

in the text, the symbols are explained, like the 7 horns the lamb has Revelation 5 explains they are the 7 spirits of God.

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Isaiah 11:2
(2) And the spirit of the LORD[1] shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom[2] and understanding[3], the spirit of counsel [4]and might[5], the spirit of knowledge[6] and of the fear of the LORD[7];

Saint Steven said:

Then why did you say, "few there be that find it"?
Sounds like a difficult game with a lot of losers.
Perhaps that scripture is about something else?
Didn't @MMXX just explain that to us?

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The reason few find it is the matter of having a child like belief and willingness to accept a free gift.
ask most people, even most self professing Christians how to get to heaven, and they'll tell you they have to do x and they have to do that good works, obey the 10 commandments, be a good person, etc etc etc.
if you tell them all you have to do is believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah, the Son of God as He said He is, that He died for their sins and was resurrected... as scripture tells us... many people will balk at it.
Pride in themselves prevents them from accepting something so simple as how they get to heaven.
No no no... of course you also need to be baptized and take communion
you need good works
you need to obey the commandments, and be holy... you need to be a member of a specific church or denomination.... etc etc.

But when the bible has less requirements than that?
Well.. you go with what the bible says about it.

John 3:16, John 5:24, Romans 10:9
If ANYTHING else is required other than that simple "believe", then those verses are lies. God cannot lie.

Salvation is simple to the point that it's hard because people want to make it more complicated. But you have to look at it that if you attach a bunch of rerquirements to it, WHICH of those requirements is the thing that saved you, which is the thing that atoned for your sins? That is what your faith is actually in.

Matthew 7 has those professing Jesus as Lord, but then offering their good works as how they earned their way in.
Jesus says He never knew them.
The reason why is because they relied on their works to earn their way in, not a personal relationship with Jesus. Their faith was in their works, not in Jesus. As a result? No saving relationship, because their faith, what they believed saved them, was not Jesus. It's not just believe Jesus exists and Jesus is Lord, it's believe that Jesus died to atone for your sins. That He did it for you.

Confronted by the same scenario of being before God at the judgement.. all I can offer in my defense is that Jesus died for my sins. Ever since I've been saved, I've had trouble accepting a lot of biblical doctrines and can easily see both sides of some theological debates and I have doubts in my mind, I struggle with a lot of things... the solitary thing that I do know without any doubt though, is that Jesus is the Son of God and He died to pay the penalty for my sins in my place.
That's it, that's the only thing I have 100% surety on.

MMXX said:

What about all the Christians who have a powerful testimony of all the things they were saved from in this life through accepting Jesus? Why does the Old Testament talk so much about salvation, but doesn't say anything about eternal hell?
Why does David in Psalm 51 say “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation", when Moses and the prophets never said anything about eternal damnation in hell-fire?

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Progressive Revelation. There wasn't a revelation of any way going to heaven in the books of Moses either, and there was not a promise of a New Earth until Isaiah I believe.

as far as testimony, sure, God can save someone out of sin, but why is that in particular a good thing if there is no judgement?
Many people find those sins enjoyable
But if there's a judgement, and ECT is the punishment from that Judgement... then being saved out of sin is an amazing thing because those sins would have condemned you now you live in no condemnation.

Jamdoc said:

Progressive Revelation. There wasn't a revelation of any way going to heaven in the books of Moses either, and there was not a promise of a New Earth until Isaiah I believe.

as far as testimony, sure, God can save someone out of sin, but why is that in particular a good thing if there is no judgement?
Many people find those sins enjoyable
But if there's a judgement, and ECT is the punishment from that Judgement... then being saved out of sin is an amazing thing because those sins would have condemned you now you live in no condemnation.

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It sounds like you're saying ECT is the only reason for being a Christian. That without it being a Christian is pointless. That there's no motivation to embrace Jesus as Lord except to escape ECT.

MMXX said:

It sounds like you're saying ECT is the only reason for being a Christian. That without it being a Christian is pointless. That there's no motivation to embrace Jesus as Lord except to escape ECT.

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No, not at all, the point of being a Christian is to love Christ.
Christ paying the penalty for our sin for us, gives us a reason to love Him, a personal reason.
There are also rewards.
But unlike the punishments, the bible IS Fuzzy about the rewards to the point of Paul just saying eye has not seen nor ear heard.. etc.

The punishments is clear.
The rewards are unimaginable.