why is Oneness unorthodox/frowned upon?

[Albion]

No, three individual persons.

Yikes. Then you are advocating for three gods? Or perhaps that God is a committee of separate beings?

 

[Albion]

You said of God having three different relationship with us.

If these aren't relationships with us his creation, then with whom are these relationships with?

God does have a relationship with us. But the persona of God that the Bible describe are not simply different names or titles according to the particular relationship we are speaking of--like we might say you are a man but also you are a citizen. The Triune nature of God, according to Scripture, is not just that. It comes close and it makes it easier for us to think of God in that way, but the triune nature is more than just one God changing hats. You cannot read all the references to the Son or the Holy Ghost and come away thinking this is all that it means.

 

[Berean777]

On our adoption spiritual papers doesn't it have the relationship of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit stamped on them as a trinity seal for us to be called the sons of God and be in relationship with the three.

This is not a trick question ok, are not all three dwelling in us?

Simple reflection is required. The fullness of God is dwelling in his temple that he builds with his own hands, how are we not in relationship with all three, if God says that I will dwell in them. If the three are the one God and God says his dwelling place will be in the believers, then the trinity lives in us.

There is no twisting and turning here either there is inclusion of the trinity in the believer or an exclusion, so which one is it?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yikes. Then you are advocating for three gods? Or perhaps that God is a committee of separate beings?

I know who God is. It seems that you are confused, just trying to help you understand what confuses you.

 

[Berean777]

God does have a relationship with us. But the persona of God that the Bible describe are not simply different names or titles according to the particular relationship we are speaking of--like we might say you are a man but also you are a citizen. The Triune nature of God, according to Scripture, is not just that. It comes close and it makes it easier for us to think of God in that way, but the triune nature is more than just one God changing hats. You cannot read all the references to the Son or the Holy Ghost and come away thinking this is all that it means.

I never mentioned one God changing hats, that is plain modalism. Maybe you haven't read my earlier posts or have me confused with another poster but I have one God revealing himself as two relationships and that one personal God who is the infinite Holy Spirit is both the Father and The Son to his creation. Both the Father and the Son were there at the inception of the world.

 

[Albion]

It seems to me that you've moved away from the subject we were discussing--the triune nature of God. Yes, God has a relationship with his creation, but what is the nature of that God? Is He defined solely by his relationship(s) with Man? Or does God have a nature or identity apart from that relationship?

On our adoption spiritual papers doesn't it have the relationship of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit stamped on them as a trinity seal for us to be called the sons of God and be in relationship with the three.

This is not a trick question ok, are not all three dwelling in us?

Simple reflection is required. The fullness of God is dwelling in his temple that he builds with his own hands, how are we not in relationship with all three, if God says that I will dwell in them. If the three are the one God and God says his dwelling place will be in the believers, then the trinity lives in us.

There is no twisting and turning here either there is inclusion of the trinity in the believer or an exclusion, so which one is it?

 

[Tangible]

 

[Albion]

I know who God is. It seems that you are confused, just trying to help you understand what confuses you.

I'm not confused. You are here on the "Controversial Theology" forum precisely because your interpretation of the nature of God is unorthodox, controversial, unconventional, and therefore not allowed on the usual Christian forums.

I know that this is not easy stuff to understand if you have decided to look at God in another way, so decide if you want to continue the discussion or not. My intention is not to convert anyone, just to explain.

 

[Albion]

I never mentioned one God changing hats, that is plain modalism. Maybe you haven't read my earlier posts or have me confused with another poster but I have one God revealing himself as two relationships and that one personal God who is the infinite Holy Spirit is both the Father and The Son to his creation. Both the Father and the Son were there at the inception of the world.

In other words, a modified version of Modalism or Monarchianism? Sounds a lot like the idea that was popularized in modern times by Herbert W. Armstrong. Would that be correct to say, do you think?

 

[Berean777]

Verses:
John 17:21-22
that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one"

JESUS

Matthew 6:9-13
Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 8:19
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.


John 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

HOLY SPIRIT

John 14:16-17
“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him for he dwells with you and will be in you.”

John 15:26
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.”

John 16:8-11
“And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.”

Can you see how the infinite Holy Ghost can be both these relationships and speak from both of them distinctly as if they are two persons, but in reality they are not two persons but the Holy Ghost speaking as the Father and also as the Son.

Jesus said it very clear of you will kindly consider what I have just stated above.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Do you know why the Holy Spirit will not speak of his own?
Between which two relationships is the Holy Spirit speaking on behalf?

The Father and the Son speaking amongst themselves is what the Holy Ghost is reporting on. The Holy Ghost doesn't speak of himself because he has presented himself as these two relationships to his creation as Father and also Son.

Listen to what Jesus states in context to the giving of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost.

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

who will come on Pentecost to make their dwelling with the believers?

We Jesus says, meaning the Father and the Son. But hold on a second isn't the Holy Ghost coming?

Yes, but he is speaking of these two relationships and not of himself. So the trinity exists in the believers because the Holy Ghost is the Father and also the Son to his creation.

 

[Berean777]

In other words, a modified version of Modalism or Monarchianism?

That is a new term to me, I would stick with simple question and answers and leave out the labels because they tend to deflect the dialogue.

Either you believe the trinity is dwelling in you or you don't?

Inclusive of the Godhead or exclusive.

Does the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit dwell in you? Yes/No. Simple question no labels to deflect the issue at heart.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Albion]

Can you see how the infinite Holy Ghost can be both these relationships and speak from both of them distinctly as if they are two persons, but in reality they are not two persons but the Holy Ghost speaking as the Father and also as the Son.

In a word, no. However, it's interesting to read all these theories. BTW, you'd think a lot more Christians would agree with you if it is all that simple, wouldn't you?

 

[Albion]

That is a new term to me, I would stick with simple question and answers and leave out the labels because they tend to deflect the dialogue.

You don't have to use the word, but you ought to take account of the fact that your theory or something close to it was considered way, way back in early Christian history and found to be unBiblical. Maybe that should suggest looking into what was discussed by the two sides back then and why the decision came down as it did.

Either you believe the trinity is dwelling in you or you don't?

Frankly, I think that's entirely unrelated to the issue here. "Dwelling in you" is not the issue; the nature of the God you want us to know is dwelling in the believer is the subject.

 

[Berean777]

In a word, no. However, it's interesting to read all these theories. BTW, you'd think a lot more Christians would agree with you if it is all that simple, wouldn't you?

Truth doesn't come by masses. I take it as a compliment that you said it is an interesting theory, or maybe....... Revelation, hmmmmm.........

God said I will build my spiritual temple and dwell in it. So according to you and I guess many, many Christains exclude the Father and the Son from the spiritual temple, hmmmmm.....

But what did Jesus say in context to the Holy Ghost that was to be given on Pentecost?

Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Jesus said in a little while the world will see me no more, but you shall see me for I will be in you and you in me, I will come back and not leave you as orphans, hmmm......

John 14 complete context is the giving of the Holy Ghost.

The WE is the Father and the Son relationships of the Holy Ghost he does not speak of his own and speaks only what he hears between the Father and the Son because he is playing these two relationship roles within his infinite indivisible being.

If the trinity is not inclusive in the believer, then you have the definite article the Holy Spirit and then you have the Father and also the Son who are also Holy, therefore Holy Spirit. However now you have a major flaw, because you have one definite article inclusive in the believer and two other indefinite articles absent from the believers, hence three spirits.

Is God dwelling in us not one Holy Spirit and so how could there be indefinite articles of two other spirits exclusive of his spiritual temple?

Hmmm.... Fascinating indeed....

 

[LovelyGiselle]

Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,

COLOSSIANS 1:15 NLT

 

[Albion]

Truth doesn't come by masses.

That's the usual response whenever someone is promoting a theory that's from way out in left field. But look at it seriously. If the "answer" to this were as cut and dried or simple as you are saying, you wouldn't be almost alone in thinking it. In fact, as has been shown to you, it HAS been thought of before--long before--and dismissed as erroneous.

I take it as a compliment that you said it is an interesting theory

Well, all these rationalizations and speculations that people come up with are interesting. Otherwise, none of us would be here on CF, would we?

 

[Berean777]

You don't have to use the word, but you ought to take account of the fact that your theory or something close to it was considered way, way back in early Christian history and found to be unBiblical. Maybe that should suggest looking into what was discussed by the two sides back then and why the decision came down as it did.


Frankly, I think that's entirely unrelated to the issue here. "Dwelling in you" is not the issue; the nature of the God you want us to know is dwelling in the believer is the subject.

It is totally related when I asked if the fullness of the Godhead dwells in the believer. Because God said he will dwell in his temple, therefore you would either have inclusion of the trinity in the believer or exclusion. When there is exclusion then that points to only one relationship dwelling in his temple while the others are not. What would that mean?

It would mean that you can't have God saying I will dwell in my spiritual temple to only have one member of his Godhead dwelling, therefore if all three are dwelling then the Holy Ghost is the Father and the Son.

The apostles certainly thought so according to their statements mentioning that the Holy Ghost purchased us with his own blood. Off course he can only take credit for it because the Holy Ghost by relationship to his creation is the Son who suffered.

Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

 

[Albion]

It is totally related when I asked if the fullness of the Godhead dwells in the believer. Because God said he will dwell in his temple, therefore you would either have inclusion of the trinity in the believer or exclusion. When there is exclusion then that points to only one relationship dwelling in his temple while the others are not. What would that mean?

It would mean that you can't have God saying I will dwell in my spiritual temple to only have one member of his Godhead dwelling, therefore if all three are dwelling then the Holy Ghost is the Father and the Son.

Let's say this "dwelling in" point is critically important to understanding the nature of God. Why not just say all three persona of the only God dwell in the believer?

The apostles certainly thought so according to their statements mentioning that the Holy Ghost purchased us with his own blood. Off course he can only take credit for it because the Holy Ghost by relationship to his creation is the Son who suffered.

Give us the verse you are thinking of.

 

[Berean777]

...

 

[Albion]

The church that you are pointing to is the denomination I belong to from birth.

I don't think that changes much. But I don't know that you are correctly describing the belief of your denomination, either.

This church certainly was dismissed and called Nestorian

Maybe you should make this clear to other posters and not simply identify yourself as "Christian?" Just a thought.