Why is nudity offensive?

[TanteBelle]

I don't think it's really a cultural thing at all. So far I agree with tante, and I'll add that when sin came into the world, that means lust and other negative thoughts came with it. If someone is clothed, it's much easier not to desire them in your mind. Yahshua said, you heard it said not to commit adultery, but I'm telling you even if you look at a woman who's not yours with a lustful mind, you've already commited adultery with her in your heart. This is another reason why I think clothing is important, to lessen the chance of that scenario happening.

I don't think it's so much because we need to wear clothes because of our shame, but because it leads to other sins.

An interesting thing to note is that Yeshua said that you've commited adultery 'with' her. 'It takes two to tango'!? You didn't just sin against her.

I feel like you are taking a grey issue and looking at it in black and white. These issues are not black and white, nudity isn't a yes or no issue.

I know it's not a favoured thought, but God is hot and cold, black and white. How is it a grey issue? Ham saw his father naked and was cursed, his brothers didn't and covered his nakedness and were blessed. How do you get anything else out of that? Nudity is a definite yes issue to spouses (I disagree very heavily with Orthodox Judaism on that issue!) but a no issue to society.

Because of man's problems, not because it's improper. Sin seperates us from God because of us and our issues, not because of God. He is the covenant keeper, not us.

As for kicked out, I beg to differ. We were protected from another tree. Had it not been there, I venture to say that we could still be in residence.

Noah's shame was his drunkeness and loss of control and ability to care for himself... I think the nudity is just a small aside to that story.

So, there's no point in running around nude or partially nude and stating 'Man's problem, not mine!' That's denying sin. God put down some rules as to what is and is not appropriate with our bodies. We're the covenant keepers; He's the covenant Maker! He made the covenant, it's up to His people to keep it!

We were protected from taking the tree of life because we'd already taken of the tree of death. If man took of the tree of life while he had now entered into sin, whew, crikey!

God is against drunkedness, granted. And part of that is because it leads to nudity. Ham wasn't cursed because he saw his father drunk but because he saw his nakedness. Which is why torah is so specific as to whom you can not see naked!

 

[crishmael]

How about nude art? Would those who are against nudity consider that offensive, sinful art? Are you against people that pose nude for artistic reasons?

I hate when I'm in the art museum and someone freaks out over a nude statue or a painting.

 

[TanteBelle]

Be back later folks!

 

[kevlite2020]

I have too. I love drawing nudes. I figure it's only fair to reciprocate.

I wish I had a shred of drawing skill, I have so much respect for people who can draw well... As for posing, the only thing that stopped me really was that I just don't think I could sit/stand still for a long period of time like that. I feel like I would move and even if it was just slightly, I wouldn't wanna mess people up haha. That's gotta be a lot of pressure to just not move!

 

[IreneAdler]

So, there's no point in running around nude or partially nude and stating 'Man's problem, not mine!' That's denying sin. God put down some rules as to what is and is not appropriate with our bodies. We're the covenant keepers; He's the covenant Maker! He made the covenant, it's up to His people to keep it!

We were protected from taking the tree of life because we'd already taken of the tree of death. If man took of the tree of life while he had now entered into sin, whew, crikey!

God is against drunkedness, granted. And part of that is because it leads to nudity. Ham wasn't cursed because he saw his father drunk but because he saw his nakedness. Which is why torah is so specific as to whom you can not see naked!

your first paragraph is illogical.

it was the tree of knowledge (not death). God knew this would happen. It allows us to choose him rather than be automotons. I think it was beautiful that he allowed this to happen for us.

Jewish sages disagree with your assertation that nudity is listed as sinful in Torah:

"Regarding the issue of tzniyut, that people go around entirely dressed—it is not a result of any of the prohibitions in the Torah. Rather, it is a careful and exalted practice to be attired even in private…However, if it is uncomfortable because of the heat or for some other reason, then one may go about [unclothed] and there is not even a question of pious conduct in such an instance…and God Knows of your discomfort…And the standard [of tzniyut] is dependent upon what it is that makes one ashamed when standing before people, each place according to its custom…And in pressing situations, it is even permitted to pray [unclothed], for [nudity] does not interfere…” (Source: Ig’ro’t Moshe, Yorah Dey’ah, Vol. 3, No. 68:4)." - Rabbi Gershon Winkler

 

[IreneAdler]

apparently we're to blame for this lol

Regrettably, we Jews have been so thoroughly influenced over the centuries by the predominant Christian culture and its wide array of taboos that we have traded in our sensuousness and appreciation of the body for morals and values unknown to our ancestors, and clearly not in God’s original blueprint for the world, for the first humans created by the Holy One were, after all, nude. - Rav Fienstein

 

[Stravinsk]

Tante - you have a valid point, imo, with regards to the Adam and Eve thing. They were husband and wife and weren't baring their "bits" to anyone else - because there was no one else - and they were in Eden.

However - if I understand your statements, both here and elsewhere - you extend "nudity" (in whole or in part) to men not wearing shirts.

Does it bother you that most depictions of Christ on the cross, and being beaten and so forth are depictions of Him without top clothing? Does it offend you - and should pictures of the crucifixion/giving of punishment(by His stripes we are healed...) be changed to reflect Jesus with a shirt on at all points during His life and trial?

 

[IreneAdler]

Does it bother you that most depictions of Christ on the cross, and being beaten and so forth are depictions of Him without top clothing? Does it offend you - and should pictures of the crucifixion/giving of punishment(by His stripes we are healed...) be changed to reflect Jesus with a shirt on at all points during His life and trial?

That's a good point. Wouldn't he have been completely nude? And if it was sinful wouldn't that have negated his purity?

 

[TanteBelle]

Tante, where is it in the Torah? If it was important enough to be written in our owner's manual then it's pretty black and white to me.

What are you wanting in torah? The issue with Ham or the laws regarding viewing nude folks?

How about nude art? Would those who are against nudity consider that offensive, sinful art? Are you against people that pose nude for artistic reasons?

I've actually considered doing that. I didn't follow through, but it's not something I would rule out.

Personally, I have no time for nude art, to be honest. I don't think it necessary. I understand that for many, they see the human body as beautiful and that's great. Personally I think that's how God intended mankind to view mankind, but I can't at this point view mankind in that light. But to ask folks to strip and draw them .......... that's something different! I am againt nude art. If you want to draw your spouse nude, the, um okay, go for it if you like to.

Didn't King David walk around naked at one point?

Didn't a prophet walk around naked as commanded by God at one point?

My memory might be bad, but I seem to remember some God-approved nudity after the fall.

I don't ever recall King David being nude. He was dressed in his undergarments which was considered rude but he didn't dance before God nude. I thought that too until I went back and read it carefully. But I don't remember anything about a prophet walking around nude. If you can find that, please share!

your first paragraph is illogical.

it was the tree of knowledge (not death). God knew this would happen. It allows us to choose him rather than be automotons. I think it was beautiful that he allowed this to happen for us.

Yes, I knew what the tree was named but I was lazy and just summed up what it led to. And it wasn't life. I don't agree with predestination, to be honest. So, I don't think God planned for man to fall and sin, and then He punish them for something that they had no control over. But that will have to be left for elsewhere; that's off topic.

Jewish sages disagree with your assertation that nudity is listed as sinful in Torah:

"Regarding the issue of tzniyut, that people go around entirely dressed—it is not a result of any of the prohibitions in the Torah. Rather, it is a careful and exalted practice to be attired even in private…However, if it is uncomfortable because of the heat or for some other reason, then one may go about [unclothed] and there is not even a question of pious conduct in such an instance…and God Knows of your discomfort…And the standard [of tzniyut] is dependent upon what it is that makes one ashamed when standing before people, each place according to its custom…And in pressing situations, it is even permitted to pray [unclothed], for [nudity] does not interfere…” (Source: Ig’ro’t Moshe, Yorah Dey’ah, Vol. 3, No. 68:4)." - Rabbi Gershon Winkler

First of all, I have very little in common with Jewish sages. What he says seems total opposite with Orthodox Judaism. An Orthodox Jewish man will never see his wife nude. Most will never even see her hair! At least in Israel, this is how it is. Baby making is with a sheet between you so you don't see each other. I don't agree with that.

Secondly, there are things in torah that seem to contradict what he's saying.

However - if I understand your statements, both here and elsewhere - you extend "nudity" (in whole or in part) to men not wearing shirts.

I personally am not comfortable with it. I prefer the 'innocence of my eyes' even that far. Not to worry, my sisters and I are kinda renowned for being shockingly innocent! LOL! That is a personal preference. If a bloke is in my presence then I'd ask for him to be fully clothed; that's just me. My Pa can come out without a shirt on, so it's not something that is indoctrinated but a personal thing there. I just don't like the human body so I'd rather see it covered up. But there's bigger issues there, but no comment.

Does it bother you that most depictions of Christ on the cross, and being beaten and so forth are depictions of Him without top clothing? Does it offend you - and should pictures of the crucifixion/giving of punishment(by His stripes we are healed...) be changed to reflect Jesus with a shirt on at all points during His life and trial?

Many say that Yeshua wasn't clothed at all! That he was crucified naked. Now that was to His shame. I don't like pictures of Yeshua crucified at all, which is why I don't like those crucifix pendants that have Yeshua on the cross. It doesn't offend me, per se, but that was to His shame not something that you can say, 'Yeshua was crucified naked therefore nakedness isn't/shouldn't be an issue.' Just as Noah was naked to his shame and one son's lineage was cursed for seeing it.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I just don't get it. Please share with me your thoughts.

Some thoughts....


1. CULTURE. We're all products of such and live within such. Our western culture has moved A LOT on this issue in the past 100 year or so, but...


2. SEX. Even in cultures were much skin is welcomed and normal, that "loin cloth" is still common. And it's not JUST to keep .... that...... from getting sunburned. There does seem to be a very common (albeit not universal) sense that private parts are best kept.....um.... private? Reproductive stuff is nearly always covered.


3. Body image. One of the advantages we have over other creatures is we CAN (and normally do) cover. And we can do so very deliberately - so as to make ourselves "attractive" (if only in our own eyes). IF there's a "part" of ourselves we'd rather not be too public - we usually don't NEED to, we can usually cover it (perhaps artistically). Full nudity removes this... I think those with a strongly positive body image are likely to be okay with such being revealed.



It's wierd, however. More psychology and anthropology than this physics guy cares to theorize about.... I was on a swim team for about 4 years, from 13 - 16. Obviously, I showered and changed with lots of GUYS - and never gave a moments thought to being.... "visible." I bathed in the lake with fellow boy scouts on hikes - never thought about it. I was even once "seen" by my big sis when I was 16 (totally, TOTALLY a mutual accident) - I was surprised but not really embarrassed. BUT those are .... different.

I remember, when I was maybe 15, talking with those in my theatre company. We discussed if we would do a "nude scene" in a play. AMAZING our universal reaction - girls and guys (all teens): We all seemed okay doing so with each other - but we all felt uncomfortable with the audience! Bearing it all is..... revealing, disclosing..... it involves a lot of trust. It involves some sense of knowing what will happen. We felt comfortable with each other because we knew and trusted them.... what about that guy in seat F-34?

I was a 'beach bum' and I know in some countries, nude beaches are common. The SITUATION and CULTURE would make it okay. Would I do it? I'm not sure. I'D be okay (I'd put a LOT of sunblock on "it" however!) but my AMERICAN culture would ....


- Josiah





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[MehTeh]

That's a good point. Wouldn't he have been completely nude? And if it was sinful wouldn't that have negated his purity?

He was nude. The only reason images show him with that cloth around him (you know, the one that doesn't even look like it's tied in place so it must be magically floating there) is because of puritanism.

 

[IreneAdler]

Yes, I knew what the tree was named but I was lazy and just summed up what it led to. And it wasn't life. I don't agree with predestination, to be honest. So, I don't think God planned for man to fall and sin, and then He punish them for something that they had no control over. But that will have to be left for elsewhere; that's off topic.

First of all, I have very little in common with Jewish sages. What he says seems total opposite with Orthodox Judaism. An Orthodox Jewish man will never see his wife nude. Most will never even see her hair! At least in Israel, this is how it is. Baby making is with a sheet between you so you don't see each other. I don't agree with that.

Secondly, there are things in torah that seem to contradict what he's saying.

Predestination aside, you brought up the tree to begin with

As for having little in common with the Jewish sages, that's fine, I just have way more faith in their interpretation of Torah (as this is their life) than an average internet poster. I'd venture to say he's far more educated on the topic than you or I by far.

I doubt Torah contradicts him, maybe anglicised interpretations of Torah, but not Torah itself.

 

[TanteBelle]

Predestination aside, you brought up the tree to begin with

As for having little in common with the Jewish sages, that's fine, I just have way more faith in their interpretation of Torah (as this is their life) than an average internet poster. I'd venture to say he's far more educated on the topic than you or I by far.

I doubt Torah contradicts him, maybe anglicised interpretations of Torah, but not Torah itself.

Haha! I did!

I guess that I have a bad habit of not submitting to the norm or spiritual 'authority'. Even theologians are carnal so therefore, I don't take what they say as having any truth at all until I've stood on my own and searched it out myself. While I respect those who are 'educated' in the word, very often I find myself to disagree with them based upon scripture which is why I'm not Christian and a very odd Messianic! LOL! I don't have one ounce of faith in any man's interpretation on scripture. Even God chose uneducated, simple minded fishermen to spread the gospel rather than 'educated' torah teachers. Am I saying I can be compared to them? God forbid! But I don't take note of what 'educated' men really say. I think it through for myself first and foremost. And while I love the Jews, I have to be honest, even Judaism is so far from torah it's not funny. That's just one reason why Yeshua came!

Being truely independantly minded is something I kinda learned from my father. He pulled us out of churches and schools because he thought on his own, relying on no man to tell him what scripture said. It probably is a fault because even now, I don't look up to anyone or rely on anyone to tell me what scripture says to the point that I'm on my own in so many Biblical opinions that I don't even share with my father! It probably is a fault, I will admit, but at the same time, it has kept me from just gulping down so much doctrinal tradition that is accepted without question.

 

[IreneAdler]

He was nude. The only reason images show him with that cloth around him (you know, the one that doesn't even look like it's tied in place so it must be magically floating there) is because of puritanism.

 

[IreneAdler]

Haha! I did!

I guess that I have a bad habit of not submitting to the norm or spiritual 'authority'. Even theologians are carnal so therefore, I don't take what they say as having any truth at all until I've stood on my own and searched it out myself. While I respect those who are 'educated' in the word, very often I find myself to disagree with them based upon scripture which is why I'm not Christian and a very odd Messianic! LOL! I don't have one ounce of faith in any man's interpretation on scripture. Even God chose uneducated fishermen to spread the gospel rather than torah teachers. Am I saying I can be compared to them? God forbid! But I don't take note of what 'educated' men really say. I think it through for myself first and foremost. And while I love the Jews, I have to be honest, even Judaism is so far from torah it's not funny. That's just one reason why Yeshua came!

I'm a weirdo Messianic as well but I find much more truth in Jewish reading of Torah than most Christian by far. I agree that self exploration is the key. As for uneducated fisherman, they had a Rabbi teaching them. They were Talmidim. What started as uneducated ended as educated.

 

[Inkachu]

Blind post: Nudity in and of itself isn't offensive. God created us just as we are, after all. The offense, unfortunately, is the result of sin. Nudity isn't an innocent, natural state anymore (and I believe nudists are living in ignorance/denial, but that's another thread). God clothed Adam and Eve, the Bible commands us to be modest; those things aren't without good reason. Nudity in a private, appropriate setting is still a beautiful, fun thing. Naked little babies = adorable. Naked spouse = hubba hubba. Naked anybody else = not cool.

 

[Im_A]

I just don't get it. Please share with me your thoughts.

It is only offensive to me when I am not attracted to it.

 

[TanteBelle]

I'm a weirdo Messianic as well but I find much more truth in Jewish reading of Torah than most Christian by far. I agree that self exploration is the key. As for uneducated fisherman, they had a Rabbi teaching them. They were Talmidim. What started as uneducated ended as educated.

And that's where I'm one of those Messianics who reject talmud as having any place alongside torah. Contradicts torah too many times to be included as a holy book, sometimes to the point of peverse. They were more in algnment with Phariseeic teaching of torah. Paul himself boasts of his Phariseeic position. Yeshua told us to do what the Pharisees tell us to do (which was torah) but not to do what they did (Judiastic tradition). I agree with your first statement which is again, why I don't class myself as Chrsitian. I love Chrisitans and Jews alike but I can't line up with their understanding of torah or scripture itself.

 

[TanteBelle]

Blind post: Nudity in and of itself isn't offensive. God created us just as we are, after all. The offense, unfortunately, is the result of sin. Nudity isn't an innocent, natural state anymore (and I believe nudists are living in ignorance/denial, but that's another thread). God clothed Adam and Eve, the Bible commands us to be modest; those things aren't without good reason. Nudity in a private, appropriate setting is still a beautiful, fun thing. Naked little babies = adorable. Naked spouse = hubba hubba. Naked anybody else = not cool.

Agree!

 

[IreneAdler]

And that's where I'm one of those Messianics who reject talmud as having any place alongside torah. Contradicts torah too many times to be included as a holy book, sometimes to the point of peverse. They were more in algnment with Phariseeic teaching of torah. Paul himself boasts of his Phariseeic position. Yeshua told us to do what the Pharisees tell us to do (which was torah) but not to do what they did (Judiastic tradition). I agree with your first statement which is again, why I don't class myself as Chrsitian. I love Chrisitans and Jews alike but I can't line up with their understanding of torah or scripture itself.

Thing is though, that was primarily to address fence laws, to which modesty is often a slave.