Why is it that when Christians can't handle ex-Christians, they say...?

*shrug* You can lead a horse to water...

I was rather sharp with you in my last post and for that I apologize. I have some rough spots the Lord is still working on. Again, my apologies.

Peace.

OP, it's not that you are an ex-Christian or not...and it's not that there is a defiant existence of an "ex-Christian," but the real issue at hand is if you legitimately felt the Holy Spirit...how on earth could you possibility turn away from that?

2 Timothy 2:11-13 (New International Version)

11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

mad_a_God said:

A young earth creationist is debating a scientist on the age of the earth. The scientist says that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and uses radiometric dating to substantiate his claims. The young earth creationist says that the earth is about 6,000 years old and uses the Bible to substantiate his claims.

No one who possessed a rational mind would take the young earth creationist seriously, because the Bible is certainly not an authoritive source. Further, the Bible isn't even credible because errors, which you stubbornly refuse to see and continuously make unsubstantiated claims to excuse them, abound in it.

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There is absolute disunity amongst evolutionists over just about every facet of the theory of evolution, there are many unknowns and gaps in this doctrine and radiometric dating relies on assumptions which have proven to be wrong.

This type of "science" doesn't seem to sway the rationally minded......?

mad_at_God said:

I used to pray every night. I was very religious. I went to church often. I was born again. I accepted Jesus as my savior. My entire essence was that of a Christian. Naturally, I take a lot of offense to your saying that I was never a Christian, much like how a retired and famous MLB player would take a lot of offense to a narrow-minded fan saying that he was never a baseball player in the first place simply because he grew too old to continue playing baseball.

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Being born again means there was evidence of a spiritual birth and spiritual gift. Which spiritual gifts did you exercise?

Did you get baptised into Christ? This is a basic instruction & act of obedience to the Spirit of God.

Do you have a testimony of any kind. The Bible says we overcome the work of the devil by the word of our testimony...

The facts of the matter are people are robbed of their faith. I for one do not believe in the "always a Christian" doctrine which is contrary to the Word of God. if you truly were born again the devil has robbed you of the truth and scripture says there is no drawing you back. However if this was a head knowledge acceptance then there is hope.

98cwitr said:

OP, it's not that you are an ex-Christian or not...and it's not that there is a defiant existence of an "ex-Christian," but the real issue at hand is if you legitimately felt the Holy Spirit...how on earth could you possibility turn away from that?

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This is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

So because you felt the "holy spirit" this is an immediate and exclusive trait to Christianity? Please do not be foolish.

Hindus also feel "the spirit" so to Muslims and almost anyone who is into any form of spirituality. A connection with the divine. I have felt it too.

This does NOT mean it is a "Christian" entity or feeling. Its just a feeling. yes, it might be God, but which one seeing as almost every single religious person on the planet (spiritual people too) can feel this spirit.

You immediately slap the "Christian" label on it, even though it applies to anyone who is spiritual?

Ridiculous.

Christians seem to think us non-believers are people incapable of feeling "the spirit". I get it. When you lot are rolling around speaking "in tounges", or when primative tribes are dancing around a fire getting into a deep trance-like state of meditation, this "feeling" is identical. Its all the same thing.

But no. Deny and lie all you want, because self-denial of the world around you seems to be the basis of all Christianity. A Christian would NEVER accept that perhaps, this feeling of connection with the Divine applies to other cultures as well.

Or even better yet, you will claim that what they are feeling is "false" and the exact same feeling your particular sect feels is "100% correct". Hillarious.

Christianity is basically saying that all 30,000 years of civilisation that occured before Christianity had absolutely no method of connecting with the divine. Heck, Christianity claims there WAS no civilisation before 6000 years ago...


Genius.

Spoonbill,

I don't think 98cwitr is saying that the feeling itself is proof that it comes from the Holy Spirit, but rather, IF it IS from the Holy Spirit (i.e. God) how could you turn away from that.

To help determine whether something is from the Holy Spirit or not you would need to know the Holy Spirit, i.e. read about Him from scripture. If it's inconcsistent with that then it's either (a) no spirit at all, or (b) a false (demonic) spirit.

Mad_at_God said:

Why is it that when Christians can't handle ex-Christians, they say they were never Christians?

I used to pray every night. I was very religious. I once took up the cross and proclaimed Jesus as my savior. I was once born again. I was rigorously devout in my beliefs—yet many simple-minded Christians always tell me that I was never a Christian simply because I renounced my Christianity. Why is that? Can they not handle people who turn their back on Jesus?

Christians who reason that faith is permanent (meaning that it is impossible to fall away once someone becomes a born again Christian) and say that any born again Christian who turns his back on Christianity was never really a Christian are using a good example of the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Someone uses the no true Scotsman fallacy when they try to reinterpret evidence to prevent the refutation of their own position. Counter-examples are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples.

Counter-examples to the idea that faith is permanent (that is, born again Christians who turn their back on Christianity) are written off with the no true Scotsman fallacy: they didn't really have true faith; they were never true Christians.

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I stumbled across this thread by "accident" and felt the need to post on it.


OP, I'm a Christian and I do believe that former Christians can become unbelievers. Why? Because I was one of these people. One of the most powerful things a person possesses is their own testimony. And I'm still living mine out -- and will until I depart. Let me share with you a brief (extremely brief) composite of that point in my life:


I was "born and raised in the church" and although accepted Christ into my heart as a child and got baptized, I drifted away from God in an angry way as a teenager. I hated God -- or who I thought God was. I thought God hated me, so it seemed appropos to return the sentiment. I was so angry then. Fast-forward to age 18/19. I found myself going back to the church; regardless of the reasons I gave myself, God was the one calling me. I was searching... but He was already calling and attempting to meet me where I was. At 19, I fully accepted Christ and what Christ stands for. It became real to me. I felt God taking away every single dark and angry part of me. I was baptized (as truthfully as any person can get baptized) in my own tears. I felt God's presence upon me. I felt that dramatic change. It was a complete 180. Fast-forward again to about 23/24. I became laxed in my approach to my spiritual life and became immersed in other religions (for schooling, but also for further development; other religions intrigued me as religion is paramount in culture -- everyone knows studying culture is my "thing"). Long story short, because I was not developing myself within my faith, I backslid into unbelief. I woke up one night, terrified. I had literally lost my belief in God then. It lasted for about a month, but it was a deeply low time in my life. Figure everything you've ever believed, everything you've ever experienced crumbles into a million pieces. It took time... so much time to build back that faith. I clawed my way here. And at the time, seemed impossible. But, that is why I remind people that what is impossible for man is very possible with God. That time in my life was so painful and I wondered for the longest time why God would ever allow someone to go through that? When you're a believer, truly a believer... you know what you're missing out on. To miss out on that is an incredible loss. I know that God allowed me to go through that for a reason. Maybe to share it with others (in a grand way). But in an even more personal way, I believe I was allowed to go through that to test me, to strengthen me, to further shape me into the daughter I should be. So, I'm thankful for that.


Now, I can claim Christianity with my lips or my keypad, but God really knows where my heart is and He has it. He has me in the hollow of His hands and promises never to leave me.


Long story short, I believe those who tell you these things are not 100% accurate. They are speculating and cannot know you nor others as God can. So, go to the One whose thoughts really matter: Go to God about it. I wish you all the best. God bless you.

JasperJackson said:

Spoonbill,

I don't think 98cwitr is saying that the feeling itself is proof that it comes from the Holy Spirit, but rather, IF it IS from the Holy Spirit (i.e. God) how could you turn away from that.

To help determine whether something is from the Holy Spirit or not you would need to know the Holy Spirit, i.e. read about Him from scripture. If it's inconcsistent with that then it's either (a) no spirit at all, or (b) a false (demonic) spirit.

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Like I just said, you are again saying that the spirit (although it feels identical) could NOT be "THE" spirit and rather an "evil clone"of it. And unless you slap a 2000 year old label on something that has been around, possibly since the beginning of time, it cannot be divine.

Logically, that is astoundingly stupid (not you, just the logic).


Right.

The Holy Spirit also reminds us of scripture and convicts us of our sins. Do other "spirits" do that or are you just talking about a euphoric feeling of some kind?

I found that Christian Forums was huge when I started, and my impression that had at the start was right, that I would not find things I felt I should discuss in a timely manner, I wouldn't have time. Sorry that I am late here. Mad at God, you say:

"I used to pray every night. I was very religious. I once took up the cross and proclaimed Jesus as my savior. I was once born again. I was rigorously devout in my beliefs—yet many simple-minded Christians always tell me that I was never a Christian simply because I renounced my Christianity. Why is that?"

What you say gives me doubts. Did you really love God? For how God loved you, and what Jesus did for your salvation? For that you could go to Heaven to be with him. Can you say all that was true, and then you decided to reject God, his love for you and your love for him, and decided you would rather not go to Heaven, or something was more worthwhile to you?

Mad_at_God said:

Why is it that when Christians can't handle ex-Christians, they say they were never Christians?

I used to pray every night. I was very religious. I once took up the cross and proclaimed Jesus as my savior. I was once born again. I was rigorously devout in my beliefs—yet many simple-minded Christians always tell me that I was never a Christian simply because I renounced my Christianity. Why is that? Can they not handle people who turn their back on Jesus?

Christians who reason that faith is permanent (meaning that it is impossible to fall away once someone becomes a born again Christian) and say that any born again Christian who turns his back on Christianity was never really a Christian are using a good example of the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Someone uses the no true Scotsman fallacy when they try to reinterpret evidence to prevent the refutation of their own position. Counter-examples are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples.

Counter-examples to the idea that faith is permanent (that is, born again Christians who turn their back on Christianity) are written off with the no true Scotsman fallacy: they didn't really have true faith; they were never true Christians.

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Many people believe in once saved, always saved. I don't believe in that.

As far as your objections to Christianity, I'm always happy to lend a helping hand to you on that subject. I believe that many people fall away from the faith because they do not have answers to nagging questions that are bothering them. I will do my best to try to answer any that you may have.

JasperJackson said:

The Holy Spirit also reminds us of scripture and convicts us of our sins. Do other "spirits" do that or are you just talking about a euphoric feeling of some kind?

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So let me get this straight. The Holy spirit reminds you of something you have already read. I take if if you havn't read the Bible the spirit doesnt remind you of what you read (and already know).

So you know it is the spirit because information is shown to you, by the spirit, that you have already read, and already know. So it isn't actually giving you ANY new information? This is proven by the fact it isnt going to tell you scripture or verses that isnt already in your own head.

So the difference between your "spirit" and the spirit of say ancient tribes is the fact that it puts information in your mind.....that is already there.

But all other spirits felt are false because they dont give you this "knowledge" that is already in your head?

OK...

Spoonbill,

My point was that the Holy Spirit is more than just a feeling. We know things about Him by what we read in scripture. Can we do that with other spirits?

The Holy Ghost convicts the non believer of the 3 things:
1. Sin
2. The righteousness of Jesus Christ
3. The judgement to come.

There are many spirits and then there is the Spirit of God and the 2 are contrary to each other.

The "feeling" that comes from the close proximity of spiritual authority with the flesh is insignficant. The signficant part is the conviction and revelation that comes from such close proximity.

The authority of the Spirit of God in our lives leads to good fruit (peace, joy,forgiveness, kindness, love, compassion etc) while the authority of other spirits leads to bad fruit (judgement, anger, bitterness, hatred, accusation, self righteousness, lust, etc).

We have gotta quit using "feelings" and "emotions" as the litmus test for Christianity. There are times when I will pull away from God and He will seem distant. And yes, there are times God Himself will intentionally pull away from me to see if I have matured any in my faith....to show me a weakness, to break down some false security that is not built on Him.

We had "old folks" day at our church and some of the elders (70 year olds and older) got up and told stories. Most of them were saved as a teen or in their early twenties. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM told of a time after they were saved that they pulled away from God. This time was measured in years, even decades for some. They told of falling back into old habits and vices. But...they also said they knew they were doing wrong the entire time. Usually some big event would draw them back to Christ.

Now here's my point. This big event usually was a losing a spouse or a child or a sibling or a sickness in the family/self or a personal near death experience.

If you are a Christian who has fell away, God is going to get your attention by shaking your world up....guaranteed. This aint a "might happen", it is a "will happen"...so why not come back to Him first?

All religions use this argument, don't they? I have found that many supposed Christians who convert to other religions and make a big deal regarding their previous Christian faith were only Christian by name and not by nature. Obviously, this isn't always true, but I've found that most people would only label themselves Christian, and wouldn't go to church, pray, etc.

For Mad at God, I also want to say that what little was said about the past as a Christian does not show to me the understanding that real Christianity is not merely a religion, however devout it may be. It may come across as a trite statement, but it really is a relationship. What would be the justified reason for rejecting the all-loving God one has already come to know? And I know Christians can slide back into sin, and we do. And at least some believe that salvation can be lost when that happens. But God still loves us, and if we have been saved, it was not by our works, so the keeping of salvation is not by our works. God works to our restoration. Why would you say that has not or cannot happen for you?

berachah said:

The Holy Ghost convicts the non believer of the 3 things:
1. Sin
2. The righteousness of Jesus Christ
3. The judgement to come.

There are many spirits and then there is the Spirit of God and the 2 are contrary to each other.

The "feeling" that comes from the close proximity of spiritual authority with the flesh is insignficant. The signficant part is the conviction and revelation that comes from such close proximity.

The authority of the Spirit of God in our lives leads to good fruit (peace, joy,forgiveness, kindness, love, compassion etc) while the authority of other spirits leads to bad fruit (judgement, anger, bitterness, hatred, accusation, self righteousness, lust, etc).

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You are telling me what I already know.

What I am saying is this. These "other evil" spirits (which seem to be the same thing actually) also give you a sense of enlightenment and revelation.

What if the Bible never existed? You would not be able to tell the difference between the two spirits felt by that of an evangelical christian speaking in tounges or that of a tribe dancing around a fire. You people are using circular logic here.

Let us, for the sake of the arguement pretent the Bible is wrong, this spirit of enlightenment can still be "accessed" by anyone in the right mindframe. Why do you think ONLY Christians can access this??? People have been doing this for thousands of years before Christ even walked the earth.

It is a spiritual connection. Its has NOTHING to do with being religious. Also, why do you claim when a non-christian access this identical spirit you claim it is false or a demon?

If ANYTHING causes self-rightiousness, it is the Christian assumption that they are the only ones capable of accessing this spiritual connection.

Spoonbill said:

What if the Bible never existed? You would not be able to tell the difference between the two spirits felt by that of an evangelical christian speaking in tounges or that of a tribe dancing around a fire.

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Correct. That is why God DID give us the Bible.

Spoonbill said:

You people are using circular logic here.

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I don't know about other people but I don't believe in God BECAUSE I have felt the Holy Spirit. I believe because I think the story about Jesus stacks up to scrutiny, but I don't want to derail the thread. So for me it goes: "Convinced about Jesus" -> "Bible is true" -> "Holy Spirit exists and we can know specific things about him". No circles.

Spoonbill said:

Let us, for the sake of the arguement pretent the Bible is wrong, this spirit of enlightenment can still be "accessed" by anyone in the right mindframe. Why do you think ONLY Christians can access this???

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Because we're talking about different things. I'm talking about the Holy Spirit, part of the trinitarian God. You're talking about a "spirit of enlightenment". I don't really know what that is. Tell us. And, do you believe in it/him/her/them yourself?

Spoonbill said:

People have been doing this for thousands of years before Christ even walked the earth.

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Yes the Holy Spirit has existed since before Jesus walked the earth.

Spoonbill said:

If ANYTHING causes self-rightiousness, it is the Christian assumption that they are the only ones capable of accessing this spiritual connection.

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Yes, Christians are righteous but not through SELF. Only Jesus sacrifice and our faith in him makes us righteous before God. Sorry, just a little theology lesson there, but I realise that wasn't your point.
But you shouldn't be surprised that Christians believe they are absolutely right, that we absolutely believe in the Bible. That we absolutely believe in God and that he is unique to other ideas about God. And that we absolutely believe that Jesus is the only way we can be reconciled to God. In this post-modern, pro-pluralist, wishy-washy world I realise that it is rare to think something is absolutely true. And some people are offended by that and see it as self-righteous. Yes, we should apologise for how we behave sometimes and in our attitude to people but we shouldn't apologise for what we believe; for what we think is absolute truth.

JasperJackson said:

Correct. That is why God DID give us the Bible.

I don't know about other people but I don't believe in God BECAUSE I have felt the Holy Spirit. I believe because I think the story about Jesus stacks up to scrutiny, but I don't want to derail the thread. So for me it goes: "Convinced about Jesus" -> "Bible is true" -> "Holy Spirit exists and we can know specific things about him". No circles.

Because we're talking about different things. I'm talking about the Holy Spirit, part of the trinitarian God. You're talking about a "spirit of enlightenment". I don't really know what that is. Tell us. And, do you believe in it/him/her/them yourself?

Yes the Holy Spirit has existed since before Jesus walked the earth.

Yes, Christians are righteous but not through SELF. Only Jesus sacrifice and our faith in him makes us righteous before God. Sorry, just a little theology lesson there, but I realise that wasn't your point.
But you shouldn't be surprised that Christians believe they are absolutely right, that we absolutely believe in the Bible. That we absolutely believe in God and that he is unique to other ideas about God. And that we absolutely believe that Jesus is the only way we can be reconciled to God. In this post-modern, pro-pluralist, wishy-washy world I realise that it is rare to think something is absolutely true. And some people are offended by that and see it as self-righteous. Yes, we should apologise for how we behave sometimes and in our attitude to people but we shouldn't apologise for what we believe; for what we think is absolute truth.

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Firstly, thank you for answering that so well. So well in fact, that I can actually respect your belief. Mainly because you said how you should not apologise for what you "think" to be the truth. Many Christians seem to KNOW it to be true, which is funny, seeing as human beings don't know anything. Feeling that it is true, and believing it is true because you personally have added your experience and facts together and arrive at an answer that points to "most likely" is an acceptable one. I cannot disrespect that.

But to answer your questions:

Here unfortunately though, you have stated that God have us the Bible. You can believe this, but you cannot state this as absolute fact. It isnt written on HeavenTree Paper (tm) and it is in fact written by people who also thought they were speaking to God. Nothing "physically" is holy about the bible. Its just words on paper written by humans. Whether there is truth to it or not is another matter altogether.

It is OK to believe that you think it is the word of God. It is not OK to say it is 100% certain to be so. Because it isn't. Just like I cannot say it is 100% certain it is not.

I believe the spirit of enlightenment and your "holy spirit" to be the same thing. I do not believe we have to believe in fairy tales or even Jesus for that matter for us to be able to "tap into" it. You say yourself this spirit has been around since long before Jesus. Was it not possible for people before to tap into this spirit and experience its infinite love and joy during the 30,000 odd years before Jesus? Seems both unlikely and pretty unfair if it were true.

The spirit is basically, unconditional love. Now read that again. "unconditional". That means, that regardless of what we may do, believe or achieve, it loves us.

This means...we can do no wrong. This life we are given is the gift. The gift of 80 years or so where we can enjoy it and be thankful for it, and regardless of what happens, we are loved and we will be with this spirit when our time here is done. Unconditionally.

Could you think of anything more loving than that? The gift of total freedom and truely unconditional love.

People have been experiencing the spirit all around the world, from all different cultures and from all different times. This is why most of the planet believes in it in some form or another. The only difference is the practices some people use to access it. Praying, meditating, fasting, even through the use of naturally occurring psychdelics (like psylocibin) such as the mayans did.

I do not believe an "evil spirit" will tell me to love my neighbours more than myself and to dedicate my life to helping others and to be completely thankful of this life we are given. Is this also not the message your spirit tells you?

The God I worship is just this. Unconditional love and energy. And so long as I do not harm another living being on this planet, I do not think it cares how I choose to live my life. This is his / its gift to me (and to everyone).

For the rules of something as completely divine and all encompassing as God to be expected to be captured in a 2000 year old book written by some flat-earthist, YEC is something I am pretty sure he already knows people are going to suspect as being a little bit unbelievable. Hence, I do not think he is going to be too upset when I tell him I had my doubts about that book.

I do not need a book to tell me how to be with God. He is already inside us. Unconditionally.