Why is it that every time genetic "information" is brought up to argue in favor of design...

sfs

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I would say a particular combination of DNA may mean in general, "This is a human." Of course, what DNA actually "says" is even more specific. A particular strand of DNA at a crime scene may say in effect, "A particular individual named so-and-so has been here."
If this is the sense of semantic meaning that's relevant, it's not clear to me why there's anything special about DNA. Doesn't a particular collection of rocks and branches mean, "This is a stream bed," in the same sense?
 
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pshun2404

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Exact
-_- that doesn't pan out, since DNA codons are so redundant that you could have a DNA strand produce a human identical to yourself with exceedingly different DNA. Plus, most genes produce multiple proteins, and telemeres at the ends of DNA only exist to compensate for the fact that every time a human cell divides, the DNA gets shorter (a common problem of eukaryotes in general). In females, the extra X chromosome is entirely shut off, forming a barr body. Yet, the same one is not shut off in every cell. So even genetically identical cells of the same tissue, right next to each other, will not necessarily function precisely equal to each other. And don't even get me started on human chimeras that are produced through the fusion of fraternal twin embryos.


Exactly!
 
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pshun2404

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Not really. Communication implies an intelligent generator and an intelligent interpreter. We have neither of those with DNA. The "information" argument by creationists is just an example of desperate clutching at straws.

Then what is the reason for the use of this and related terms (design, program, etc.,) by NON-creationist scientists (from different fields)? Why is use of these terms alright and accepted in peer review if there are not some who accept the analogy? Obviously enough do see it this way.

In many senses it is like an instruction manual for the production of specific functional proteins...no one denies this in cellular biology! Specific genes inherited and specific alleles and so on IN THE EMBRYO determine what will become that specific adult human (what they will look like, many physiological factors different from other adult humans, ...no one in cellular biology denies this...

So it seems to me though SOME Creationists may clutch for straws (having an anti-evolutionist world view, not all) as you say...but it is also true that people like yourself are just in denial (your anti-creationist world view, not all)
 
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pshun2404

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Can we at least agree that what some biologists refer to as molecular and cellular machines are assemblages of specific parts that perform specified functions, transmit forces, motion, or energy from one part or area to another in a predetermined manner? They are put together in just this way (in various creatures) to have a specified form and perform a “predetermined” function. That IS an observable verifiable fact.

Their structures and functions (lysosomes, ribosomes, endoplasmic reticulum, etc.) follow a blue print of sorts already encoded in the genetic material that produced them...and they have definite purpose similar in all similar creatures. How can one not be honest enough to simply admit this? Denial and the need to re-interpret to fit the "belief" that can be the only reason (sounds just like fundy creationists to me).
 
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46AND2

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Can we at least agree that what some biologists refer to as molecular and cellular machines are assemblages of specific parts that perform specified functions, transmit forces, motion, or energy from one part or area to another in a predetermined manner? They are put together in just this way (in various creatures) to have a specified form and perform a “predetermined” function. That IS an observable verifiable fact.

Their structures and functions (lysosomes, ribosomes, endoplasmic reticulum, etc.) follow a blue print of sorts already encoded in the genetic material that produced them...and they have definite purpose similar in all similar creatures. How can one not be honest enough to simply admit this? Denial and the need to re-interpret to fit the "belief" that can be the only reason (sounds just like fundy creationists to me).

In the same way that two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen are put together in just such a way that it produces water.
 
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pitabread

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Their structures and functions (lysosomes, ribosomes, endoplasmic reticulum, etc.) follow a blue print of sorts already encoded in the genetic material that produced them...and they have definite purpose similar in all similar creatures. How can one not be honest enough to simply admit this?

It depends on what you mean by "definite purpose". If you are talking about some sort of planned foresight in how the fundamentals of nature and the universe works, that's a philosophical question that science can't really answer.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Then what is the reason for the use of this and related terms (design, program, etc.,) by NON-creationist scientists (from different fields)? Why is use of these terms alright and accepted in peer review if there are not some who accept the analogy? Obviously enough do see it this way.

Because it helps to get a concept across. Words can have more than one meaning. You are using a very specific definition of "information", using it in a way that those writers were not. You are basing your argument on an equivocation error.

In many senses it is like an instruction manual for the production of specific functional proteins...no one denies this in cellular biology! Specific genes inherited and specific alleles and so on IN THE EMBRYO determine what will become that specific adult human (what they will look like, many physiological factors different from other adult humans, ...no one in cellular biology denies this...

Yes, in a"many senses" it is. But not in the sense of information where one intelligence communicates with another. No one has demonstrated that any 'intelligence' is needed for DNA.

So it seems to me though SOME Creationists may clutch for straws (having an anti-evolutionist world view, not all) as you say...but it is also true that people like yourself are just in denial (your anti-creationist world view, not all)

Yes, and SOME includes you in this case. And no, I am not 'in denial'. Please, you and I both know that phrase applies to creationists. You made an error. Multiple posters explained it to you. Don't assume that others are in denial when it is rather obvious that that is your sin.
 
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Mediaeval

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If this is the sense of semantic meaning that's relevant, it's not clear to me why there's anything special about DNA. Doesn't a particular collection of rocks and branches mean, "This is a stream bed," in the same sense?
Valid point. All nature is equally a kind of speech. DNA’s uniqueness is not in being speech but in being so “talkative,” as compared to a bunch of rocks. And the intelligibility of nature’s speech points to an Intelligence as the source of nature’s speech. To echo Subduction Zone, communication exists only in and between minds.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Valid point. All nature is equally a kind of speech.
Not, it distinctly is not. Language in general has distinct patterns to such an extent that a language for communication can be distinguished just through the frequency of sounds (or equivalent to that language). This is how we can tell dolphins use a complex language to communicate and have names for each other, even though we can't "speak dolphin". This is also how we can tell the background electromagnetic static in the universe isn't a language, since it has no such patterns. Pattern distinctions are one of the things the brains of our species are exceptionally good at, such that if there were "speech" in all of nature, we would have noticed it.

DNA’s uniqueness is not in being speech but in being so “talkative,” as compared to a bunch of rocks.
Depending upon what said "rocks" consist of, they could engage in more chemical reactions than DNA does.

And the intelligibility of nature’s speech points to an Intelligence as the source of nature’s speech.
If it were intelligible, people would either be constantly working to decode it, or would have by now. Nature in general doesn't have language like patterns.


To echo Subduction Zone, communication exists only in and between minds.
Of which the universe or "nature" either doesn't have, or has no interest or capability of utilizing it to communicate with us.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Can we at least agree that what some biologists refer to as molecular and cellular machines are assemblages of specific parts that perform specified functions, transmit forces, motion, or energy from one part or area to another in a predetermined manner? They are put together in just this way (in various creatures) to have a specified form and perform a “predetermined” function. That IS an observable verifiable fact.

Their structures and functions (lysosomes, ribosomes, endoplasmic reticulum, etc.) follow a blue print of sorts already encoded in the genetic material that produced them...and they have definite purpose similar in all similar creatures. How can one not be honest enough to simply admit this? Denial and the need to re-interpret to fit the "belief" that can be the only reason (sounds just like fundy creationists to me).

Recognising that a certain part of a larger system has a function within that system, in no way reveals anything specific about the origins of that part. Or the larger system, for that matter.

Nore does it imply that this part was put there with predetermined intention.
 
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pshun2404

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In the same way that two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen are put together in just such a way that it produces water.

Not the same, as ribosomes are ribosomes in all eukaryotes, and these are different from Golgi bodies and lysosomes, and lungs are not the same as hearts, or spines (each is predetermined in the program for each type of creature).

But in one sense, are these you mentioned not following the laws and principles of physics and chemistry? Of course they are! Hydrogen bonding and Covalent bonding do so according to the same principles no matter where we are in the Universe! The principles governing their formation do not arise FROM their bonding, but governs their bonding in just this same way.
 
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46AND2

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Not the same, as ribosomes are ribosomes in all eukaryotes, and these are different from Golgi bodies and lysosomes, and lungs are not the same as hearts, or spines (each is predetermined in the program for each type of creature).

But in one sense, are these you mentioned not following the laws and principles of physics and chemistry? Of course they are! Hydrogen bonding and Covalent bonding do so according to the same principles no matter where we are in the Universe! The principles governing their formation do not arise FROM their bonding, but governs their bonding in just this same way.

Yes, lungs and hearts and spines all have a different chemical makeup, just like water (H2O), and Sulfuric Acid (H2SO4).
 
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tas8831

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As for the Genome and Information it depends on the scientists you study. For example...

"The information for organic evolution has somehow been predetermined in the evolving genome in a way comparable to the way in which the necessary information to produce a complete organism is contained within a single cell, the fertilized egg." Davison, John A., developmental biologist, Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis, 2005

"From an information perspective, the genetic system is a pre-existent operating system of unknown origin that supports the storage and execution of a wide variety of specific genetic programs (the genome application), each being stored in the DNA." Johnson, Donald E., chemist and computer scientist, Programming of Life, 2007, p.48


Please stop relying on quotes of dubious relevance.

Can YOU define 'information' as it pertains to genetics?


Regarding Gitt - his fatal flaw lies in his reliance on bafflegab. All of his 'upper' levels of information rely on the lower levels, or ultimately, the lowest level - the DNA sequence.
Despite this, he claims that alterations in sequence have to impact on the upper levels, thus denying his own basic premise.
 
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tas8831

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Can we at least agree that what some biologists refer to as molecular and cellular machines are assemblages of specific parts that perform specified functions, transmit forces, motion, or energy from one part or area to another in a predetermined manner?

"Predetermined"? What do you mean by this?

They are put together in just this way (in various creatures) to have a specified form and perform a “predetermined” function. That IS an observable verifiable fact.

I think you are anthropomorphizing, in a way. It seems that you are implying that an enzyme, for example, was 'predetermined' to catalyze a specific reaction.

'Predetermined' how?

Their structures and functions (lysosomes, ribosomes, endoplasmic reticulum, etc.) follow a blue print of sorts already encoded in the genetic material that produced them.

Would it not have to be "already encoded"?

..and they have definite purpose similar in all similar creatures. How can one not be honest enough to simply admit this? Denial and the need to re-interpret to fit the "belief" that can be the only reason (sounds just like fundy creationists to me).

Projection.
 
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Mediaeval

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Which is why this doesn't apply to DNA. What about DNA indicates communication?
DNA itself is not the other mind, just as speech itself is not a mind but a product and expression of mind. If anything has been learned from DNA, then the communication of ideas that we ourselves did not originate has taken place. And as intelligence is the indispensable condition of originating and reproducing ideas, this communication too is between Mind and mind.
 
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Mediaeval

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Not, it distinctly is not. Language in general has distinct patterns to such an extent that a language for communication can be distinguished just through the frequency of sounds (or equivalent to that language). This is how we can tell dolphins use a complex language to communicate and have names for each other, even though we can't "speak dolphin". This is also how we can tell the background electromagnetic static in the universe isn't a language, since it has no such patterns. Pattern distinctions are one of the things the brains of our species are exceptionally good at, such that if there were "speech" in all of nature, we would have noticed it.


Depending upon what said "rocks" consist of, they could engage in more chemical reactions than DNA does.


If it were intelligible, people would either be constantly working to decode it, or would have by now. Nature in general doesn't have language like patterns.



Of which the universe or "nature" either doesn't have, or has no interest or capability of utilizing it to communicate with us.
Language is the communication of thought via signs or symbols, and nature’s speech is full of patterns and intelligible, and we are constantly decoding it, even if we are not consciously aware of the process. For example, patterns of light and dark and color are the “letters” of the language of vision. We “read” these patterns and discern their meaning and thereby come to know the external world around us. The fact that the world is thus knowable and meaningful, that we can form accurate conceptions of the world around us, constitutes the world’s rationality or intelligibility. The world around us is, then, a thought world, otherwise we could not think or conceive it in our own minds. Thus we constantly reproduce the vision of the external world in our own minds through decoding intelligible patterns, and still more obscurely through a process of nervous impulses that look nothing at all like the external world. In the latter case, we have an analogy with decoding a radio signal that conveys intelligible information concerning the external world. For intelligible information to result, the signal must first be the purposeful product of intelligence, otherwise the signal will produce only unintelligible white noise. In the same way, nature and its speech are intelligible to us because they are the purposeful product of intelligence. And since our minds do not originate this intelligible content of the world, we refer it to another Intelligence.
 
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pitabread

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DNA itself is not the other mind, just as speech itself is not a mind but a product and expression of mind. If anything has been learned from DNA, then the communication of ideas that we ourselves did not originate has taken place. And as intelligence is the indispensable condition of originating and reproducing ideas, this communication too is between Mind and mind.

You're not describing communication. You're describing observation.
 
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pshun2404

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Yes, lungs and hearts and spines all have a different chemical makeup, just like water (H2O), and Sulfuric Acid (H2SO4).

True, AND they all form according to the plan already encoded in the DNA from before their development (hence there is an information source)
 
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pshun2404

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Please stop relying on quotes of dubious relevance.

Can YOU define 'information' as it pertains to genetics?

Regarding Gitt - his fatal flaw lies in his reliance on bafflegab. All of his 'upper' levels of information rely on the lower levels, or ultimately, the lowest level - the DNA sequence.
Despite this, he claims that alterations in sequence have to impact on the upper levels, thus denying his own basic premise.

That was not the question, but if certain sequences in our DNA lead to the formation of specific organs or a particular organism as an end product it should be obvious. Ask yourself how, from a zygote, genetics plays a role in our being a human as opposed to a fish, or a tall person versus a short one (for example)? If the genetic factors are not already there, then where do these developments come from? As an embryo it is already determined innately that we will be humans (with all these organs) and one with blond or black hair and so on. All of this IS information and instruction (in biochemical form)
 
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