Why is it OK to indoctrinate children?

Anguspure · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

Its called education, and is only given the negative conitation of indoctrination by those who are working against the truth.
In a similar way the term "public relations" was coined to avoid the negative conitations of "propoganda" and the Humanist movement distanced itself from the term "religion" in order to create a distinction in the minds of the masses.
Why is education necessary?
Perhaps one reason is that an educated individual can better avoid the predation of those who would drag them away from relationship with their creator.

Troy Fields · Sep 28, 2016

What is the difference between indoctrination and teaching? If we teach our children the things that are right and proper, are we indoctrinating them? My wife and I taught our daughters to look both ways before crossing the stree, we taught them to wash their hands, we taught them to be respectful...are these things indoctrination or are they part of the training process in helping a child grow to an adult?

In the case of Christianity, if we do not teach our children, who will? They are not going to be taught by the school system. They are not going to be taught by the media. If we are assuming the Bible is true, then we have to understand that the natural inclination of our hearts is away from the things of God...so, it is unlikely they would seek these things out on their own.

I would say that I never indoctrinated my daughters, when they were old enough to choose they were able to choose. I made sure they had the information they needed to make a wise and rational choice. I also did not handicap them by exposing them to only one side of the story.

RedPonyDriver · Sep 28, 2016

357magnum said:
I give thanks that I was raised as a Christian in the ways of the Lord Jesus Christ. So, I would also be giving thanks that I WASN'T raised in the ways of atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Hinduists, Bahaists, Judaists, Zoroastrians, Sikhs etc. etc.

Another bogus argument. Just because you believe it doesn't make it true. I'm sure Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. are glad they are of that persuasion.

Oh, and your argument might hold more water if you referred to other groups by their proper names. Since you didn't...I have to guess you don't know enough about other faith traditions to make any sort of critical evaluation of their beliefs.

chilehed · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
I don't have my own definition of the term. I'm going by the standard definition:

I think it's funny that people think that they can gratuitously change the definition of a word, call the original definition "archaic", claim that their new and novel definition is the standard one, and then find fault with the people who still use the real definition.

Nihilist Virus said:
I don't think it's right to indoctrinate children on any matter. If they ask why murder is wrong, you shouldn't reply with, "because it is." You explain why.

This is funny as well. Christian doctrine has a very good, internally consistent reason for holding that murder is wrong, and when that doctrine was handed down to me those reasons were explained and I was encouraged to ask questions.

But I've never heard any atheist provide a good, internally consistent reason for holding that murder is wrong, or even a way for atheism to provide a framework in which the terms "right" and "wrong" have any meaning whatsoever. And every time I've pointed that out eventually I receive some version of "because it is". So in reality, even by your new and novel definition of the term indoctrinate, Christians do a better job of it than atheists.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 28, 2016

RedPonyDriver said:
I'm sure Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. are glad they are of that persuasion.

Well, the angels in YHWH'S PRESENCE REJOICE GREATLY

IF any of those souls get saved,

but I don't know any of them who are glad their families are still lost if they did not

repent with them to be saved by faith through grace available ONLY IN JESUS CHRIST.

RedPonyDriver · Sep 28, 2016

chilehed said:
But I've never heard any atheist provide a good, internally consistent reason for holding that murder is wrong, or even a way for atheism to provide a framework in which the terms "right" and "wrong" have any meaning whatsoever.

Then either you don't bother to look or to listen. It's really very simple. I am a person, you are a person. As such, you deserve the same respect I do...and your race, belief (or lack), sexual orientation, gender identification, immigration status don't matter. Unlike some "Christians" who think that respect is predicated on whether or not you are judged to be "worthy"...IOW, if you're a minority, illegal immigrant, gay, not Christian, transgender, poor, etc. you don't deserve to be treated decently.

Personally, the most moral people I've ever met were NOT Christians.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 28, 2016

That's humanism indoctrination (by the definition earlier I think). It is contrary to Christianity and opposed to what the BIBLE says throughout.

Hetta · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
Despite what you say about your own upbringing, it sounds like you didn't indoctrinate your children. From that, I'd infer that you are against the idea of indoctrination.

Debatable. But I tried not to raise them within the kind of church in which I was raised. As I child I was taught that I was the cause of the crucifixion (not just "I Hetta" - all humans but as a young child I thought of it as "I, Hetta") and because of my evil, Christ had had to die. I was a sensitive child and was horrified by this sense of my inner evil. Then as I reached my teens, I started asking how I could have possibly done that. And why, if God knew that humans were going to turn out evil and kill his son, did he keep on allowing humans to be born? I experienced something of an existential crisis and rebelled entirely against the church, family, upbringing etc. Rather than have my kids go through the same tempête et passion (or worse) I chose a church that focused its teachings on mercy, forgiveness, inclusion, etc.

As others have said, it is a parent's job to teach their kids and to give them *something* on which to set their sights. I just believe that, as parents, we have to take the utmost care of what is being taught. I would never have subjected my kids to the kind of church I experienced, any more than I would have allowed them to watch R rated movies, or taken them to a Klan rally. (Not that they would be welcome, LOL). You try to make sure you don't do the damage your parents did. I'd love to quote here a poem that my husband and I were laughing about a few nights ago but cannot because language. It is a British poet and if you don't know it, you should. Philip Larkin is the poet and the poem is called This Be The Verse. So much truth. (Except I don't agree with the advice not to have kids of your own!)

Hetta · Sep 28, 2016

chilehed said:
I think it's funny that people think that they can gratuitously change the definition of a word, call the original definition "archaic", claim that their new and novel definition is the standard one, and then find fault with the people who still use the real definition.

This is funny as well. Christian doctrine has a very good, internally consistent reason for holding that murder is wrong, and when that doctrine was handed down to me those reasons were explained and I was encouraged to ask questions.

But I've never heard any atheist provide a good, internally consistent reason for holding that murder is wrong, or even a way for atheism to provide a framework in which the terms "right" and "wrong" have any meaning whatsoever. And every time I've pointed that out eventually I receive some version of "because it is". So in reality, even by your new and novel definition of the term indoctrinate, Christians do a better job of it than atheists.

It scares me that so many Christians seem to believe that if the Bible didn't tell them that murder was wrong, then it would be okay to murder. So tell me why are people in non-Christian countries not just murdering each other in the street as they don't have that "framework"? Shouldn't everyone in China be dead by now? And yet the murder rate in China is 5 times lower than that of the US. No Bible but less murder. Hmmmm.

RedPonyDriver · Sep 28, 2016

Hetta said:
It scares me that so many Christians seem to believe that if the Bible didn't tell them that murder was wrong, then it would be okay to murder. So tell me why are people in non-Christian countries not just murdering each other in the street as they don't have that "framework"? Shouldn't everyone in China be dead by now? And yet the murder rate in China is 5 times lower than that of the US. No Bible but less murder. Hmmmm.

well, taking that into account, a case could be made that by being told that murder is wrong just leads to more murders being committed. Doesn't make a great case for following the bible, now does it?

The Asian culture puts worth in fitting in, in not rocking the boat. "Rugged individualism" has no place in most Asian cultures. As a result, there seems to be less crime. In Asian countries, Christians are the minority.

Again...a case could be made that "rugged individualism" AND Christianity lead to more crime, more social unrest.

Shiloh Raven · Sep 28, 2016

Hetta said:
It scares me that so many Christians seem to believe that if the Bible didn't tell them that murder was wrong, then it would be okay to murder. So tell me why are people in non-Christian countries not just murdering each other in the street as they don't have that "framework"? Shouldn't everyone in China be dead by now? And yet the murder rate in China is 5 times lower than that of the US. No Bible but less murder. Hmmmm.

Hello, Hetta. Your response here reminded of something Penn Jillette once said.

"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine."

Hetta · Sep 28, 2016

voices that carry said:
Hello, Hetta. Your response here reminded of something Penn Jillette once said.

"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine."

Hello voices. I have never seen that quote before but I agree 100%.

rjs330 · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
If I start a thread on the topic of how a Christian determines the expired laws (shellfish) from the eternal laws (homosexuality), will you help decipher what's what there?

I would be happy to,assist.

RedPonyDriver · Sep 28, 2016

voices that carry said:
Your response here reminded of something Penn Jillette once said.

"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine."

It seems that people think that without outside constraints on behavior, everyone would be like that movie "The Purge" or whatever it was...that without that external governor, people would reduce themselves to the lowest, animal-like state. Without outside constraints, I've managed to go over half a century without raping, killing, stealing, committing adultery, assaulting someone...why? Because I have no desire to do any of those things...not because Sky daddy says not to. I've also managed to pay my taxes, donate literally millions of dollars (I'm not into greed), and spend a lot of time and effort doing things for others...not because Sky-daddy said it's a good thing (and if more of his followers listened to him, maybe they would do those things) but because I've been extraordinarily fortunate in my life and think that the right thing to do with that good fortune is to spread it to those who could use a hand out and a hand up in life.

Just think of Christians actually listening to what Jesus said about wealth...his response to the rich young man...give it ALL away and follow me. What an incredible change the world would see.

RDKirk · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
Now you are just completely changing what you said. I asked which they would be satisfied with. You said they'd be satisfied if the child did not believe, but merely understood. You then said the parents wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that and belief. The demons understand, and don't believe. I think I can differentiate between that and faithful belief.

As I said earlier, if a child asks you why it's wrong to murder, you should explain it to them instead of answering, "Because I said so."

So why is it wrong for me to murder Johnny? I doubt you can provide an explanation that fits into a 5-year-old's understanding of the world.

DoubtfulSalvation · Sep 28, 2016

Hey, I know this is a divisive issue. Personally my kids go to sunday school, but they do come up with some really cute questions about the Bible. Especially the murdering children in the OT and David wearing foreskin on his neck. So sweet, that our little munchkins can learn the holy word of YHWH.

RedPonyDriver · Sep 28, 2016

RDKirk said:
So why is it wrong for me to murder Johnny? I doubt you can provide an explanation that fits into a 5-year-old's understanding of the world.

At 5 years old, a succinct "because it is wrong" should suffice. Failing that, the threat of going to jail should work. Kids can and do grow up to be moral beings without religion. As I said above, when you remove the outer governor on behavior and develop SELF control (which is one of those "fruit of the spirit) things, you don't need an outside push not to behave a certain way.

Just_a_Joe · Sep 28, 2016

357magnum said:
I would also be giving thanks that I WASN'T raised in the ways of atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Hinduists, Bahaists, Judaists, Zoroastrians, Sikhs etc. etc.

"The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector." (Luke 18:11)

ev-8891 · Sep 28, 2016

Hetta said:
It scares me that so many Christians seem to believe that if the Bible didn't tell them that murder was wrong, then it would be okay to murder. So tell me why are people in non-Christian countries not just murdering each other in the street as they don't have that "framework"? Shouldn't everyone in China be dead by now? And yet the murder rate in China is 5 times lower than that of the US. No Bible but less murder. Hmmmm.

How can you be so sure of that? I can also argue that the murder rate in Myanmar (no Bible) is almost 30 times higher than in Norway (related to the Church of Norway). With Bible and less murder based on data I have.

DingDing · Sep 28, 2016

Hetta said:
It scares me that so many Christians seem to believe that if the Bible didn't tell them that murder was wrong, then it would be okay to murder. So tell me why are people in non-Christian countries not just murdering each other in the street as they don't have that "framework"? ... Hmmmm.

You really need to read the bible for this answer. The answer is that they do have the "framework", for God claims to have given it to them. (please read Romans 1)

Why is it OK to indoctrinate children?

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