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Why is it important to know?

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TheDag

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Hi
I've basically always held the view that God said he created everything and that is all I believe I need to know. Why do people see it as being so important to know the details like YEC or the opposite? I really don't see it as important and I think it distracts us from what God would rather we do. Christianity is a faith after all. Does someone care to explain why it is important?
 

random_guy

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TheDag said:
Hi
I've basically always held the view that God said he created everything and that is all I believe I need to know. Why do people see it as being so important to know the details like YEC or the opposite? I really don't see it as important and I think it distracts us from what God would rather we do. Christianity is a faith after all. Does someone care to explain why it is important?

Does studying science and mathematics take away from God? Do the pictures from Hubble telescope distract us from God's creation? To me, personally, I study science so I can learn more about God's creation. It's the only first hand account we have.
 
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gluadys

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TheDag said:
Hi
I've basically always held the view that God said he created everything and that is all I believe I need to know. Why do people see it as being so important to know the details like YEC or the opposite? I really don't see it as important and I think it distracts us from what God would rather we do. Christianity is a faith after all. Does someone care to explain why it is important?


I think most people of average intelligence are capable of sustaining multiple interests without undue distraction.

And why would you single out a desire to know God's creation better as being a distraction from "what God would rather we do"? If anything is going to distract a person from God, is it not more likely to be a pursuit of wealth or fame or an intense interest in racing cars or comic books? (not an exhaustive list by any means.)

And, finally, why should we settle for knowing only what we need to know?
 
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shernren

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Well, TheDag, I believe that it is very important because you will find people today who will take evolution and say, "Look! Christianity is dead! Evolution shows that the Bible is wrong!" And there are two ways in which this can be answered. Now, since you asked about why this is important, and not which position on this to take, I will just tell you what those positions are. Basically one is a position that says "evolution is a complete fake." and the other says "even if evolution is true, evolution's truth does not disprove Christianity." Basically it is important, whichever of these positions you take, to be able to defend them rigorously while at the same time being able to communicate the basic message of salvation and reconciliation. This requires a good grasp of the proof, for both sides, and thus it is important.
 
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TheDag said:
Hi
I've basically always held the view that God said he created everything and that is all I believe I need to know. Why do people see it as being so important to know the details like YEC or the opposite? I really don't see it as important and I think it distracts us from what God would rather we do. Christianity is a faith after all. Does someone care to explain why it is important?
I don't see how it is important either. Maybe people argue about it because they like to debate.
 
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TheDag

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gluadys said:
I think most people of average intelligence are capable of sustaining multiple interests without undue distraction.
And why would you single out a desire to know God's creation better as being a distraction from "what God would rather we do"? If anything is going to distract a person from God, is it not more likely to be a pursuit of wealth or fame or an intense interest in racing cars or comic books? (not an exhaustive list by any means.)
And, finally, why should we settle for knowing only what we need to know?


random_guy said:
Does studying science and mathematics take away from God? Do the pictures from Hubble telescope distract us from God's creation? To me, personally, I study science so I can learn more about God's creation. It's the only first hand account we have.

The reason I started this is I see so many suffering people in the world. Single mother struggling to cope, homeless people and others who are struggling to make ends meet. I see reaching out to them as being very important as faith without works is dead. Sometimes I get the impression that some would rather debate which version of creation is right than actually get out and help these people. That may not be accurate but it certainly is the impression I often get from other christians that I meet at chiurches or in the street (I have never spent time in this forum to know about people here).
 
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TheDag

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shernren said:
Well, TheDag, I believe that it is very important because you will find people today who will take evolution and say, "Look! Christianity is dead! Evolution shows that the Bible is wrong!" And there are two ways in which this can be answered. Now, since you asked about why this is important, and not which position on this to take, I will just tell you what those positions are. Basically one is a position that says "evolution is a complete fake." and the other says "even if evolution is true, evolution's truth does not disprove Christianity." Basically it is important, whichever of these positions you take, to be able to defend them rigorously while at the same time being able to communicate the basic message of salvation and reconciliation. This requires a good grasp of the proof, for both sides, and thus it is important.
This does make some sense but of course evolution has not been proven either.
 
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random_guy

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TheDag said:
The reason I started this is I see so many suffering people in the world. Single mother struggling to cope, homeless people and others who are struggling to make ends meet. I see reaching out to them as being very important as faith without works is dead. Sometimes I get the impression that some would rather debate which version of creation is right than actually get out and help these people. That may not be accurate but it certainly is the impression I often get from other christians that I meet at chiurches or in the street (I have never spent time in this forum to know about people here).

What do you think science helps do? I try to learn more about the world so that I can learn how to better help it. Plant biologists use evolution to help increase food yield. Tell me, what scientific discovery has creation science (key word, creation science, not creation scientists) helped mankind with?

Evolutionary science has helped us understand diseases better, understand ways to increase food yield, and understand how to better protect the environment.
 
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gluadys

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TheDag said:
The reason I started this is I see so many suffering people in the world. Single mother struggling to cope, homeless people and others who are struggling to make ends meet. I see reaching out to them as being very important as faith without works is dead. Sometimes I get the impression that some would rather debate which version of creation is right than actually get out and help these people. That may not be accurate but it certainly is the impression I often get from other christians that I meet at chiurches or in the street (I have never spent time in this forum to know about people here).

All of us have lives away from the internet. Helping those who suffer and --just as important -- changing the world to prevent suffering in the first place wherever possible, is important in a lot of our lives.

But that is so obviously a major part of Christian life that it doesn't generate debate. So in spite of its importance it is invisible as a subject of discussion. Doesn't mean its not happening.
 
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shernren

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This does make some sense but of course evolution has not been proven either.

Do you believe that space-time bends? Probably yes. I know I'd say yes.
Have you seen space-time bending? Probably no. I know I'd say no.

It doesn't take a lot more "faith" to believe evolution than to believe relativity.

Recently I watched a show / programme called "Way of the Master" about evolution, and while I wasn't quite okay with the way they treated evolution, I really loved the point they made about it when they were closing. In a nutshell, they put forward this scenario: You're in a plane crashing to the ground and there's a passenger next to you who hasn't put on his parachute. Are you going to spend your time convincing him that the plane was created, not evolved; or are you going to spend your time convincing him that he is going to fall and suffer a painful death unless he puts on his parachute? That nicely sums up the relative importance of evolution in evangelism. Yes, have an answer ready. But at the same time remember that argument in evangelism is ultimately counterproductive. They have to be won over by the testimony of holy lives and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
 
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TheDag

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random_guy said:
What do you think science helps do? I try to learn more about the world so that I can learn how to better help it. Plant biologists use evolution to help increase food yield. Tell me, what scientific discovery has creation science (key word, creation science, not creation scientists) helped mankind with?

Evolutionary science has helped us understand diseases better, understand ways to increase food yield, and understand how to better protect the environment.
From reading your replies it seems you think that I hate science. If that is true I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. My only problem with science is when scientists and science teachers talk about in such a boring way you feel like smacking them one. I have close friends who are science teachers. The only thing I have been saying is that I feel people waste their time debating which creation theory is right or if evolution is right when there is so many other things that would be a much better use of time. I really don't understand where you are coming from with these questions.
 
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gluadys

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TheDag said:
The only thing I have been saying is that I feel people waste their time debating which creation theory is right or if evolution is right when there is so many other things that would be a much better use of time.

If the debate does not interest you, no one is demanding that you participate. It may not be the best use of time in your opinion, but IMO it is just as good a use of time as stamp collecting or playing chess.
 
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TheDag

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gluadys said:
If the debate does not interest you, no one is demanding that you participate.
I'm still looking to see if anyone else can give an answer to the question I asked in the OP. If you look at the different threads you will notice that I don't participate. The part of my post you quoted was just me trying to explain to someone where I was coming from as they had asked me to defend something that I have never talked about on CF. So I thought I would try and seek some clarification from them as well as giver clarification. I hope that explains why I'm here.
 
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random_guy

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TheDag said:
From reading your replies it seems you think that I hate science. If that is true I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. My only problem with science is when scientists and science teachers talk about in such a boring way you feel like smacking them one. I have close friends who are science teachers. The only thing I have been saying is that I feel people waste their time debating which creation theory is right or if evolution is right when there is so many other things that would be a much better use of time. I really don't understand where you are coming from with these questions.

Sorry, if you misunderstood. It's important to teach evolution and it's important to support evolution. It's even more important to help defend evolution against baseless attacks. Those that fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but there was a period of time that the USSR decided the evolution went against their philosophy, so they decided to teach an alternate theory (modified Lamarckianism) and used that as the basis of their agriculture. It caused their entire biological science programs to be hugely set back.
 
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TheDag

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random_guy said:
Sorry, if you misunderstood. It's important to teach evolution and it's important to support evolution. It's even more important to help defend evolution against baseless attacks. Those that fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it.
I'm still researching evolution myself. At school how the earth was created was part of the teaching on evolution. In another discussion someone said evolution has no theory on how the world was created. So I started a thread asking about evolution and what it was exactly. I was given a couple of website links which i am still going through (I don't like reading articles on the net very much so it is slow going). I am hapy as a christian for evolution to be taught as a theory. Why a theory? From all that I currently understand is that there is still missing links which untill found mean it can only be a theory. It will not be proven untill those links are found and it can be scientifically proven. (scientific proof is that it can be done again and again with the same results) Of course if evolution has no theory on the origins of life then the supporters of evolution should get that message out there and then there would be no more creation vs evolution debates as the two could go hand in hand easily then.

random_guy said:
I'm not sure if you're aware, but there was a period of time that the USSR decided the evolution went against their philosophy, so they decided to teach an alternate theory (modified Lamarckianism) and used that as the basis of their agriculture. It caused their entire biological science programs to be hugely set back.
No I wasn't aware of that. I know there were alot of different problems they had. One of them being corruption which also caused many problems.
 
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gluadys

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TheDag said:
I am hapy as a christian for evolution to be taught as a theory. Why a theory? From all that I currently understand is that there is still missing links which untill found mean it can only be a theory. It will not be proven untill those links are found and it can be scientifically proven. (scientific proof is that it can be done again and again with the same results) Of course if evolution has no theory on the origins of life then the supporters of evolution should get that message out there and then there would be no more creation vs evolution debates as the two could go hand in hand easily then.

Actually, it would not matter how many fossil links are found, it would never fully prove evolution since the fossil record cannot give a complete record of evolution anyway.

But science does not depend on proof. It depends on supporting evidence and on the falsification of alternatives. We do have thousands of fossils which support evolution and none that falsify it. We also have many other lines of evidence which support evolution and none that falsify it.

Most important, we know for a fact that evolution happens. You see, evolution is a process that occurs in the present. And the theory of evolution is really a theory about how that process occurs--at any time, past, present and future. The process of evolution basically depends on three steps:

mutation (which leads to variations among organisms in the species)

selection (aka differential reproductive success) which means certain variations tend to become more common over time, while others are eliminated or at least become rare.

speciation (a population divides into different groups, which, due to different selection criteria, develop different character traits over time and eventually become different species.)

That, essentially, is the whole shebang. And we know from direct observations in nature and experimentally, that this whole process does happen. That is fact.

Now the other aspect of evolution is its history. How long has this process been going on? Which of today's species have a common "parent" ancestor. Which have a common "grandparent" ancestor? Which have more remote common ancestors? Is it possible that all species go back, in some remote period in time to a single common ancestor?

Of course the history of evolution as it applies to particular species, both existing and fossil, is much more problematical to substantiate. It is a much more detailed map to work out. And we will never even have all the pieces. So if a person says they will not accept evolution until every single mutation, variation, and speciation has been fully substantiated with evidence, they will never accept evolution, because we will never have all that detailed evidence.

What we can determine, however, is whether the observations we do have are better explained by evolution than any other hypothesis. And whether evolution gives us a consistent picture of the history of biological forms on earth. And on those matters, the answer is "yes".

We will never have all the fossils needed to document the place of every fossil species in the history of evolution. But what we do have is a theory that explains the fossil record better than any other theory. And that is what a theory is for--to offer the best explanation of our observations that is possible.

Remember, theories never "grow up" to become facts. But they do incorporate facts. The theory of evolution incorporates the fact (process) of evolution and also the facts of the fossil record, to give us a consistent history of how evolution occurred in the past and is occurring in the present. And while new fossil discoveries are welcome, no more are needed to prove evolution. Most fossil finds today do little more than change a detail of the model of evolution. Like the recent find of grass in a dinosaur coprolite--showing that grass has been around longer than was expected from earlier observations. That only requires lengthening the time-line for grass. It doesn't change the theory at all.
 
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