Why is Homosexuality Wrong?

[Writer before God]

Hon, first of all, these guys are trying to get their thread back. Second, The point, once again, was not about Jesus but rather the guy who was in prison. We are talking about two different people. Third, the Tanakh and the old testament are not the same... close but no cigar. If you would take the time to compare the two you would know that. Ever wonder why Jews don't believe in Jesus? It's because he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecy as laid out in the Tanakh... however, you believe that he did fulfill the messianic prophecy from the Old Testament. Is it possible that you are looking at two different versions, different wording, different meaning, different prophecies.... different books?????

Your 14 years old so I know you don't believe this but you don't know everything... very far from it. Let these guys have their thread back now cause you aren't getting any where with this.

O ok i will lay off and give them there thread back hehe.. soory for interrupting.. >.<

 

[Velo Princesse]

Certainly correct, I am in deed in the position to try to answer "why is homosexuality wrong". But, I've given this a lot of thought, and I honestly cannot see any reason why consentual homosexuality is any more immoral than consexual heterosexuality.

I'm convinced that neither is immoral, however I'll leave open the possibility that I could be simply mistaken. However, this means the burden to show that it is wrong is on you, not me.

I can't think of a single reason why it is wrong. I used to think it was a horrible sexual perversion until I got to know a homosexual relationship up close and realized that it's the same as my relationship with my husband. It's hard to think of it that way now... Anyway, I don't think any one will be able to give an answer why it's wrong without the use of the Bible. Of course, I could be wrong also... and so we go around.

 

[carternordstrom]

FadingWhispers3, your reasoning & perspective’s insightful!

ok I’m a gay Christian and know, at least for my experience, being gay was definitely no choice I made. I understand this post is not questioning if it’s a choice or not and I promise to you not to derail the topic, so please follow on…


But the thing is, if it weren’t a choice than how can a God who made people homo- or heterosexual condemn what’s natural to one group and call it sin?

Some people say being gay is like being an alcoholic…alcoholics have a genetic predisposition, etc, but that just aggravates me because alcoholics don’t know they are alcoholics until AFTER the act (they’ve drunk). Assuming my experience isn’t stand-alone, homosexuals have an attraction for the same sex just as naturally as heterosexuals have attraction for opposite sex…BEFORE they’ve actually had sex.

So, when people answer with homosexuality is wrong because in the Bible (Lev 18:22)…, I still wonder what makes it so wrong. David, the man after God’s own heart, had an adulterous affair w/Basheba AND had a plethora of continuous relations with his many wives up until his death. So how is that any different than David sleeping with other men, and if he had done so do you think he’d still be the “man after God’s own heart?” I don’t get the double standard.

 

[Velo Princesse]

Do you go to a regular church or one of the PFLAG churches? I only ask because it seems like it would be very difficult to go to a regular one. My cousin, who is a lesbian, goes to a regular church but she has no friends there. She is very zen about it and I just don't get it. I don't think I could do it.

 

[Writer before God]

FadingWhispers3, your reasoning & perspective’s insightful!

ok I’m a gay Christian and know, at least for my experience, being gay was definitely no choice I made. I understand this post is not questioning if it’s a choice or not and I promise to you not to derail the topic, so please follow on…


But the thing is, if it weren’t a choice than how can a God who made people homo- or heterosexual condemn what’s natural to one group and call it sin?

Some people say being gay is like being an alcoholic…alcoholics have a genetic predisposition, etc, but that just aggravates me because alcoholics don’t know they are alcoholics until AFTER the act (they’ve drunk). Assuming my experience isn’t stand-alone, homosexuals have an attraction for the same sex just as naturally as heterosexuals have attraction for opposite sex…BEFORE they’ve actually had sex.

So, when people answer with homosexuality is wrong because in the Bible (Lev 18:22)…, I still wonder what makes it so wrong. David, the man after God’s own heart, had an adulterous affair w/Basheba AND had a plethora of continuous relations with his many wives up until his death. So how is that any different than David sleeping with other men, and if he had done so do you think he’d still be the “man after God’s own heart?” I don’t get the double standard.

WAT VERSION'S was these versus out of.. also it just doesnt fit that a man man woman woman go together.. THe wrong thing about homosexuality is that the people just dont reproduce from it and it is pointless... secularism.. (it started in rome as you know) so anyone who is suporting homosexuality is supporting ideas that have long passed and i guess are still around today...

 

[FadingWhispers3]

ok I’m a gay Christian and know, at least for my experience, being gay was definitely no choice I made.

I think for most people this is the case. Who would want to be persecuted, condemned, prejudiced against, cursed, etc, etc. The reason people say 'choice, choice' is because they cannot reconcile God condemning what is not a choice. So they reason that if God condemns it, it must be a choice, and further that turning to God must provide a way out. And also, few who say this are themselves homosexual although God knows they have problems of their own.

But the thing is, if it weren’t a choice than how can a God... call it sin?

I don't subscribe to this line of thinking myself, but some could claim for example that Judas betraying the Christ was a sin and yet he was chosen for that very deed. Ironic that salvation should come, indirectly so it seems, through sin.

Assuming my experience isn’t stand-alone, homosexuals have an attraction for the same sex just as naturally as heterosexuals have attraction for opposite sex…BEFORE they’ve actually had sex.

I believe this is true.

So, when people answer with homosexuality is wrong because in the Bible (Lev 18:22)…, I still wonder what makes it so wrong.

I think that if homosexuality is a sin (and this may be argued both for and against), it may be a sin that God chooses not to take away. Like Paul requested the removal of a thorn in his side yet God refused so that in his weakness God's power and grace may be manifest.

I think it much like the question of whether the blind man or his parents sinned that he was born blind... yet Jesus said neither but that the glory of God might be done in him.

Further, I don't think it matters very much in the scheme of things. Murderers, adulterers, liers, thieves, etc, etc, Jesus died for them all (I do not mean to insult by putting anyone in the company of murderers, for it is said that all have sinned). If homosexuality is a sin, it is a forgiven sin.

I don’t get the double standard.

Supposedly, the idea is the difference between repentence and celebration. David, for instance, would not have a parade to glorify his sin. Now, I do not say homosexuality is or is not a sin. I only say this is the reasoning behind people who condemn homosexuality... not homosexuality, but they that glory in it.

One counter argument is that all instances of prohibition against homosexuality were in reference to religious prostitution... idolatry. But I have nothing to say on whether that idea has merit or not.

Be well.

 

[carternordstrom]

DuchessDinesOut:
yep, I go to a regular southern-baptist church. I absolutely love it...it's growing so much and there's so many venues for getting involved.

As for me, no one know's I'm gay, and it'd be the very last thought to cross their mind. I'm a very outstanding college-age member with parents that are extremely involved, leaders, and everyone knows them. I've just sort of made myself push aside the issue of me being gay; that is, I focus on other stuff. Totally closeted.

You might say that's a sign of weakness and you might definitely be right in assuming so. However, the people that fill my life (from work, college, and especially church and family) mean so much to me that I'd hate to see any of that change.

Ever since I was young I was attracted to other men and I had just assumed it was the role-modeling/look-up-to sort of growing thing. During adolescence sexuality was definitely more on my mind, but I'm tellin yah due to my personality (hopeless optimistic I assumed I would start liking girls all-of-a-sudden but nope, sure didn't. Then I took it upon myself to look into special programs, read literature, etc, that could change my sexual interests but I then completely realized that the possibility of me changing to having heterosexual desires was just as likely as a heterosexual changing to homo.

Yah, I always thought I'd marry an attractive woman and that would be all it'd take, but that's just not going to happen....naive optimism of that being fulfilling or lasting.

I still want to have a wife, kids, dog, a normal life...I'm no banner-waving gay clubbing guy. BUT, realistically, I can only see myself either resisting ever having sex if that's even possible for a lifetime (I'm a virgin) or just finding a conservative christian guy on the other side of the planet and just living peacably. Still in my heart I wish to say I could have a normal all-American family like my friends and family.

HelpmeI'mConfused: please refer to earlier posts for rebuttal to your statement regarding sexual activity that doesn't result in reproduction.

 

[Velo Princesse]

My cousin joined some group of gay Christians who thought they could pray it out of themselves. I honestly believe that group does more harm than good.

Anyway, she says that her church life, her work life, and her home life are all seperate. She's in a long term relationship (the just bought a house & are trying to have a baby) and she is very happy. She still goes to that church but she says that her personal life is none of their business. ANd it's between her and God. She also knows a bunch of verses that I guess say something different than what people think the Bible says on the subject. I don't know if you know those, but I can get her to e-mail me with them if you want to study it.

Could you imagine, though, the kind of life it really would be if YOU had a wife? I mean, sure, if you could change yourself that would be one thing, but you can't. So, you having a wife would be miserable for you and her... there is just no way God would want that.

Why would he have to be on the other side of the planet??

 

[carternordstrom]

Why on the other side of the planet? Well slight exaggeration there, just the thing is I'm a big part of our church and what my parents/family thinks of me is just so important. Also, I'm going into pediatric dentistry and a big part of why I'm doing that is b/c my genuine desire is to give the Lord my skill/education by donating my summers at orphanages to offer free dental aid to some of the thousands and thousands of children with such saddening circumstances. My church currently makes such 2wk long trips, but really the Lord's blessed me and I'm confident will continue to, so it's the least I can do. great experience!

So anyways I wouldn't be able to do all that if I was "out," and I really think that it'd mean much more to me to help with that in the summers (more fullfilling) than having a gay relationship that the very people I care about would despise/disapprove of.

Sure, if it's easy enough for your cousin to send me some verses that'd be nice! carternordstrom@yahoo.com

PS: Don't worry, I do realize that the meanest thing for me to do to someone is to sweep them up, marry them and fake a connected relationship only to have children and the american dream.

In fact, I'm wondering how much longer I've got before people start assuming I'm gay...that is, I am attractive, in great shape, and have a very promising career ahead. I've made plenty of friends with girls that I later realize only are so interested in me because they want to date/have a relationship. Don't worry though, I'm pretty decent at letting them know my intentions b/c the last thing I'd want to do is to keep them away from a true boyfriend when I had no interest regarding that.

My dad's successful, my family's very well-liked at church, so all that together makes it even less difficult for me to get an admirerer. (please, I'm not boasting or anything like that sorry) So once I finish school I'll have to adapt my response/excuse I guess. hmm

As for now, I'm very busy in college and tell people I'm not serious-enough of a person for anything more than great friends.

 

[LemmingLord]

Ok, but why does God say homosexuality is wrong? Gonna keep asking till I get a decent answer.

Maybe God doesn't have a good utilitarian reason. Maybe its like my wife and fish. God just thinks "ewww."

(Of course I've already given one utilitarian possibility: it was a rule like the others in the old testament to avoid the passage of disease.)

 

[Cerberus~]

Maybe God doesn't have a good utilitarian reason. Maybe its like my wife and fish. God just thinks "ewww."

God goes "eww"? Doesn't seem very...godly.

Besides, anyone that thinks 2 guys going at it is real sick, hasn't ever seen sick. When you see some real sick stuff, you'll look back at those 2 guys and wonder what the hell you were thinking.

Ppl that think "eww" is a legit moral reason against homosexuality, need to get a life.

(Of course I've already given one utilitarian possibility: it was a rule like the others in the old testament to avoid the passage of disease.)

Back then, that would have been a legit arguement. Today, it's not.

 

[DrummerWench]

Y'know, I wondered if I might've been too subtle with my post #25, but it was late. "No," I thought, "they'll get it."

(Miscellaneous wrongdoings...)
Then you'll be in a position to try and answer "why is homosexuality wrong?".

(Various secular arguments for why the above are wrong...)
Homosexuality is wrong because... because... ummmm.... Leviticus something:something says so and for no other reason.

(More secular arguments for why the above are wrong...)
None of the above concepts are similar enough to homosexuality. Hence the problem.

Thank you!

That was my point!

DrummerWench

 

[Cerberus~]

That outside of God, there's no reason to think homosexuality is wrong?

 

[hopefull]

To each his own! I do not judge anyone, cause only one person has that ability, and let me tell you...it's not you! If two people find comfort and love within each others company, then leave them be. It no ones business but their own. Just like I don't want to see a man and woman making out in public, goes the same for a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. As far as what they feel or do in private, that is their business. If they are happy, then I am happy for them. We may not agree with something, but it does not mean it's not right. God bless everyone..and I mean EVERYONE!

 

[Phred]

Several folks here have claimed to base their beliefs and morality upon the Bible. Yet, I don't see how this could be. As children, before we're aware of the Bible or God, we begin to foster a sense of what is right and what is wrong. We do this based upon consequenses. If we steal some candy we find out that we're punished for doing so. Eventually we realize that that candy belongs to someone else and we're hurting them by taking it. The Bible says, "thou shalt not steal" yet it gives no reasoning as to why. Still, we all agreed with that statement the first time we became aware of it. Why? Well, because that's what our experience has shown us.

People don't go to the Bible for their morality. They support their chosen morality with the Bible.

So why would there be prohibitions against homosexuality in the Bible at all? I think we can all agree that there are indeed sections within the translated scriptures that do condemn homosexuality. Perhaps we need to look at those translations...

From here:

There are two Hebrew words which are often associated with homosexual passages and which are mistranslated in many English versions of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament):

• qadesh means a male prostitute who engaged in ritual sex in a Pagan temple . This was a common profession both in ancient Israel and in the surrounding countries. it is often mistranslated simply as "sodomite" or "homosexual." (e.g. the King James Version of the Bible, Deuteronomy 23:17). The companion word quedeshaw means female temple prostitute. It is frequently mistranslated simply as "harlot" or "prostitute." A qadesh and quedeshaw were not simply prostitutes. They had a specific role to play in the temple. They represented a God and Goddess, and engaged in sexual intercourse in that capacity with members of the temple.
• to'ebah means a condemned, foreign, Pagan, religious, cult practice, but often simply translated as "abomination." Eating food which contains both meat and dairy products is "to'ebah" A Jew eating with an Egyptian was "to'ebah." A Jew wearing a polyester-cotton garment would be "to'ebah." In order to understand what the Bible has to say on heterosexual activity, we could consult the original Hebrew texts, dividing all of the references to heterosexual sex into different categories:

• rape;
• sexual abuse of children;
• ritual sex in Pagan temples;
• prostitution;
• sexual orgies;
• non-exploitive, consensual, monogamous sex in a loving relationship, etc.

The final category is the only one that would help us understand what the Bible teaches about heterosexual activity in a committed relationship. After all, a verse which describes how an army kidnapped some female virgins for use as sex slaves does not tell us anything about the role of sex in marriage today. A verse that discusses temple prostitution during the worship of Pagan gods does not instruct us about feelings of romantic love between a man and a woman. Similarly, in order to comprehend what the Bible says about gay and lesbian relationships, we must pass over the references to homosexual rape, male sexual abuse of boys, and homosexual prostitution, orgies, Pagan sexual rituals in temples, etc. We would be left with only those references relating to consensual sexual activities within homosexual partnerships. There may not be any of these.

There are biblical descriptions of close and intimate relationships between members of the same gender. But there are no unambiguous passages that show that they were sexually active.

One is forced to conclude that the Bible often condemns heterosexual and homosexual exploitive, manipulative sex, and prostitution, but may be totally silent on consensual homosexual relationships.

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]One is left with many Biblical passages which condemn fornication - sex outside of marriage. If one were to accept these passages as inspired by God, then one can conclude that the Bible considers homosexual sex within a committed relationship as equivalent to a man and woman living together common-law without having being married.
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It seems to me that there's a good case to say the Bible doesn't say anything at all about homosexuality while it says a great deal about prostitution and promiscuity.
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So... why does God say homosexuality is bad? I don't think God does. I think men do and use scripture to justify their prejudices.
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[ChristianCenturion]

People don't go to the Bible for their morality. They support their chosen morality with the Bible.

What!?

I guess this negates the whole concept of Amazing Grace.

 

[DrummerWench]

...
(Yet more secular arguments why miscellaneous wrongdoings are so)

Certainly correct, I am in deed in the position to try to answer "why is homosexuality wrong". But, I've given this a lot of thought, and I honestly cannot see any reason why consentual homosexuality is any more immoral than consexual heterosexuality.

I'm convinced that neither is immoral, however I'll leave open the possibility that I could be simply mistaken. However, this means the burden to show that it is wrong is on you, not me.

Sorry, FSTDT, I missed your post in my haste this morning. It seems you also figured I was arguing against you, rather than with you.

Funny, all the replies to my post have been from those who understand the difference between secular and religious arguments. The OP asked explicitly for non-religious reasons, and got a slew of Bible-based comments. My point was, that for many things we consider "wrong", it's easy to give secular reasons why. Not so, homosexuality.

I had hoped that some of those giving religious reasons, when specifically asked for non-religious ones for issues other than homosexuality, would be able to give secular reasons for non-flashpoint wrongdoings. This could, perhaps, lead to the realization that there are no secular arguments against homosexuality that hold water. At least, so far I have seen none.

Ultimately, rules against homosexuality wind up being religious prohibitions, similar to the Orthodox Jewish law against lighting a fire on the Sabbath, or the Amish rule against wearing clothing with buttons (zippers are OK).

DrummerWench

 

[DrummerWench]

That outside of God, there's no reason to think homosexuality is wrong?

Well, no non-Biblical reason. It's been a long time, though, since I believed God = Bible.

DW

 

[one love]

Homosexuality and vegetarianism are both wrong because they are both counterproductive to evolution.

 

[LemmingLord]

God goes "eww"? Doesn't seem very...godly.

Ppl that think "eww" is a legit moral reason against homosexuality, need to get a life.

Back then, that would have been a legit arguement. Today, it's not.

Most gods of which I am familiar have tastes and emotions identifiable as going "ewww."

I agree with you, though, that "ewwww" isn't a moral reason against anything. Of course if your boss doesn't like the smell of fish, i wouldn't go cooking some up around the office and not expect him to go "ewwwwww."