Why is homosexuality worthy of its own topic?

[ig3L]

I find it curious that we live in a society in which homosexuality is specifically singled out for debate. It seems that homosexuality is only a temptation for a minority (although a significant one) of believers. On the other hand, other sins, such as adultery (i.e., lust), muder (i.e., malice), greed, etc. are much more problematic for the majority, if not all believers. It seems that we often pay too much attention to the sins that are only a problem for some of us, rather than those that affect all of us. I wonder why this is. Just curious what you all think.

 

[savedandhappy1]

I find it curious that we live in a society in which homosexuality is specifically singled out for debate. It seems that homosexuality is only a temptation for a minority (although a significant one) of believers. On the other hand, other sins, such as adultery (i.e., lust), muder (i.e., malice), greed, etc. are much more problematic for the majority, if not all believers. It seems that we often pay too much attention to the sins that are only a problem for some of us, rather than those that affect all of us. I wonder why this is. Just curious what you all think.

I believe what you are seeing is that pretty much everyone will agree that murder, adultery, greed, etc. are sins. It is the fact that not all believe that homosexuality is a sin that brings on the debates.
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[PinkTulip]

Division in the church - I know in the ELCIC (and probably ELCA) gay marriage is a heated topic and will probably divide the church once again.

 

[ig3L]

I believe what you are seeing is that pretty much everyone will agree that murder, adultery, greed, etc. are sins. It is the fact that not all believe that homosexuality is a sin that brings on the debates.
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First, I am not sure that all would agree that malicious or lustful thoughts are equivilent to murder or adultery, even though Christ seemed to teach that pretty plainly.

Secondly, what I think I am struggling with is this: When I continue to murder other people (in my heart), I continue to commit adultery (by lusting after women, including, ironically, my own wife), etc..., how important is it for me to insist on proving to homosexuals that they are sinners. If they know Christ, then they know they are sinners (whether or not they accept that homosexual acts themselves are siunful), just as I came to accept my own sinfulness when I came to know Christ. On the other hand, one of the things that I am finding more and more is that there are probably lots of things that I do everyday which are displeasing to God, that I either do not know are sinful, or in my sinfulness, I am unwilling to admit that they are sinful. I suppose this may be the case with homosexual Christians, but why single this one particular sin out for discussion?

 

[ig3L]

Division in the church - I know in the ELCIC (and probably ELCA) gay marriage is a heated topic and will probably divide the church once again.

Why do you think it is such a divisive issue?

 

[PinkTulip]

Why do you think it is such a divisive issue?

I assume it is the actually blessing of something that is sinful. If you were a pastor, would you bless a marriage that was against God's word?

 

[ig3L]

I assume it is the actually blessing of something that is sinful. If you were a pastor, would you bless a marriage that was against God's word?

I can understand where you are coming from, and I agree with you that Christian pastors have no biblical basis for conducting same-sex marriages. However, even before same-sex marriage was even talked about, the gay issue was a pretty divisive one in the church. For example, at various points, the issue has surrounded ordination of gay clergy and whether sexual orientation warrants any special protection by Federal/State discrimination law. The same sex marriage issue seems to be just the latest manifestation of the "gay" issue, and I sometimes wonder if the marriage issue is somewhat of a reaction to the way the Church has handled the issue up to this point.

 

[BigBadWlf]

More to the point it is a temptation of some to use the bible to justify their own hatred of homosexuals


And if all else fails to justify hate…it is a temptation to falsely compare an entire minority to murders and thieves. Similar comparisons were (and often still are) made between Africans and murders and rapists and drug addicts…

 

[ig3L]

it is a temptation to falsely compare an entire minority to murders and thieves.

Interestingly, Jesus seems to compare us all to murderers and adulterers, and I think it is fair to say that most, if not all of us, are theieves too! (Cf. Mt. 5:21-30).

 

[ScottBot]

I find it curious that we live in a society in which homosexuality is specifically singled out for debate. It seems that homosexuality is only a temptation for a minority (although a significant one) of believers. On the other hand, other sins, such as adultery (i.e., lust), muder (i.e., malice), greed, etc. are much more problematic for the majority, if not all believers. It seems that we often pay too much attention to the sins that are only a problem for some of us, rather than those that affect all of us. I wonder why this is. Just curious what you all think.

Homosexual ethics and morality rates its own forum because it, along with Mariology, are the most tempestuous and vitriolic subjects in Theology. It makes the Theology team easier to monitor the more......vociferous and cantankerous posters in the forums.

 

[davedjy]

Homosexual ethics and morality rates its own forum because it, along with Mariology, are the most tempestuous and vitriolic subjects in Theology. It makes the Theology team easier to monitor the more......vociferous and cantankerous posters in the forums.

I'm the biggest threat, I think.

 

[ScottBot]

I'm the biggest threat, I think.

Noone considers you a threat. You could learn to display a bit more charity and humility, but then again, that seems to be a common problem with a majority who post here (including yours truely), so you're in good company.

 

[ig3L]

I'm the biggest threat, I think.

I've only been here for a day now, but you don't seem like that big of a threat.

 

[davedjy]

Noone considers you a threat. You could learn to display a bit more charity and humility, but then again, that seems to be a common problem with a majority who post here (including yours truely), so you're in good company.

Yes, I do apologize to those reading...I do get a little impatient, and allow things to irritate me.

 

[davedjy]

I've only been here for a day now, but you don't seem like that big of a threat.

Welcome to the forum, btw...hopefully, a few people introduced themselves to you, if you have any questions, you can always private message me.

 

[ig3L]

I have been thinking about this today, and I have come up with some of my own ideas about why this is such a tough issue. First, I believe that the Bible does teach that homosexual behavior is sinful and that it is no more so or less so than any other sexual (or other) sin. But, it seems like it might in fact be different, not on a moral level, but on a differet level (which I can't quite place my finger on).

I think I can best illustrate the issue this way: I am the leader of a young adult ministry at my church. If one of my young adults (let's call him Joe) came up to me and told me he wanted to have sexual relations with his girlfriend, I would explain to him that the Bible teaches that that is contrary to God's plan and I would help him to see why. I would then likely console him in the fact that one day God will (probably) bring the right woman into his life or show him that his gf is that woman and he will be married and the sex thing will no longer be problematic. If, however, another guy (let's call him Ed) told me that he wanted to have sex with his boyfriend, I could offer the same counsel with one glaring exception. I would not be able to tell him that one day God will bring the right man into his life.

I hope this illustrates the problem. Heterosexuals who struggle with sexual temptation will eventually be able to engage in the conduct that "tempts" them without sinning, assuming that God brings the right person into their lives. People whose only sexual temptation is of the homosexual variety (i.e., as differentiated from bisexuals) don't have that possibility in their future if they accept the biblical teaching that homosexual conduct is immoral. And, let's be honest, it's not just about sex. There is something within us that longs for intimacy with another person. Sex is perhaps the most tangible fruit f that intimacy. So it must be intensely difficult to be in the situation of a "gay Christian" accepting the biblical teaching that says that it is immoral.

And, so I would imagine, the question arises, whether perhaps the traditional understanding of the Bible is accurate. I know that I personally have grappled with issues in the Bible that were intensely difficult for me, which sometimes caused me to look beyond the text for answers. Sometimes I found them; sometimes I just had to come to terms with the literal text of the Bible. I imiagine that this same struggle happens all the time in the souls and hearts of gay Christians.

And, with all that said, I am left with the conclusion that if any one group in the Church is worthy of a lot of compassion and understanding, it is those who struggle with this difficult issue. It seems to me that rather than viewing this as a campaign to convince the masses that homosexuality is wrong, Christians should see their mission in this area as to work with each individual who is struggling in this arena to help them to see God's plan and to deal with the repurcussions of following that plan. We really should be loving and supporting, rather than trying to win arguments. But I guess arguing is just easier.

Anyway, those are my two cents. I just threw them together so I hope they make sense.

 

[davedjy]

Christians should see their mission in this area as to work with each individual who is struggling in this arena to help them to see God's plan and to deal with the repurcussions of following that plan.

You do realize that you cannot change your sexual orientation, right?

The struggle is that gay Christians NEED to find a gay, bi, lesbian or transgender affirming church. you cannot fix this, it's a valid orientation given by God!

Furthermore, God gave this valid orientation to 450 different species! Many males of which only go towards their own sex, and will not go to females!

 

[ig3L]

You do realize that you cannot change your sexual orientation, right?

The struggle is that gay Christians NEED to find a gay, bi, lesbian or transgender affirming church. you cannot fix this, it's a valid orientation given by God!

Furthermore, God gave this valid orientation to 450 different species! Many males of which only go towards their own sex, and will not go to females!

I accept that, in the same way that a recovering alcoholic, will always be an alcoholic, that a homosexual inclination may be permanent. I am not a big fan of ministries that try to "fix" homosexuals and encourage them to marry someone of the opposite sex. This is completely unfair to both the homosexually inclined person and the spouse. On the other hand, I have known people who have changed their behavior from that of a practicing homosexual to that of a practicing heterosexual, even without any sort of coercion from the Church. I am in no place to judge whether they ever were truly homosexual or if they are now heterosexual (in terms of inclination) or if they were always latently bisexual. Another point is that the Bible teaches that "Nothing is impossible with God." Therefore, I do not put the changing of one's "orientation" in the realm of the "impossible." I would accept, however, that on one's own strength it is impossible, in the same way that it is generally regarded as impossible for an alcoholic to recover on his/her own strength. I would also accept that, for the most part, the more viable solution for many gay Christians is practice a life of celibacy. And, in these cases, the mission of the Church in working with such people is to help them to discover ways to enjoy personal intimacy with other people in a non-sexual way.

As for this being and "valid orientation given by God," I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you. I believe many of us have inclinations that are the result of various experiences that we have faced during childhood and such. Some of these cause us to deal with temptations that others may not struggle with. Some of these inclinations may be as benign as music preferences, hobbies, etc. I see homosexuality as in the former category, not something inflicted (or given) by God.

Finally, I won't comment much on the comment that homosexuality is practiced by animals, other than to say that you are valued so much more than are the animals, so there is no reason to compare yourself to them.

 

[davedjy]

I accept that, in the same way that a recovering alcoholic, will always be an alcoholic, that a homosexual inclination may be permanent. I am not a big fan of ministries that try to "fix" homosexuals and encourage them to marry someone of the opposite sex. This is completely unfair to both the homosexually inclined person and the spouse. On the other hand, I have known people who have changed their behavior from that of a practicing homosexual to that of a practicing heterosexual, even without any sort of coercion from the Church. I am in no place to judge whether they ever were truly homosexual or if they are now heterosexual (in terms of inclination) or if they were always latently bisexual. Another point is that the Bible teaches that "Nothing is impossible with God." Therefore, I do not put the changing of one's "orientation" in the realm of the "impossible." I would accept, however, that on one's own strength it is impossible, in the same way that it is generally regarded as impossible for an alcoholic to recover on his/her own strength. I would also accept that, for the most part, the more viable solution for many gay Christians is practice a life of celibacy. And, in these cases, the mission of the Church in working with such people is to help them to discover ways to enjoy personal intimacy with other people in a non-sexual way.

As for this being and "valid orientation given by God," I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you. I believe many of us have inclinations that are the result of various experiences that we have faced during childhood and such. Some of these cause us to deal with temptations that others may not struggle with. Some of these inclinations may be as benign as music preferences, hobbies, etc. I see homosexuality as in the former category, not something inflicted (or given) by God.

Finally, I won't comment much on the comment that homosexuality is practiced by animals, other than to say that you are valued so much more than are the animals, so there is no reason to compare yourself to them.

Inclinations?

No, not inclinations. You would then have to prove to me why gay people don't have any opposite sex attraction!

Do animals have predispositions to alcohol? it's goofy to use that analogy here.

I know you cannot change your orientation, and it is given by God. I have had visions given, and words of knowledge, and elders of various Churches that aren't gay confirm my beliefs.

Comparing to animals? yes, believe it or not, we do share lots of DNA, and we are primates.
furthermore, God would not tolerate being mocked...animals ARE a creation by God, and we can look to them to do Scientific studies to help us all the time, let's not ignore lab research!

 

[ig3L]

Inclinations?

No, not inclinations. You would then have to prove to me why gay people don't have any opposite sex attraction!

Do animals have predispositions to alcohol? it's goofy to use that analogy here.

I know you cannot change your orientation, and it is given by God. I have had visions given, and words of knowledge, and elders of various Churches that aren't gay confirm my beliefs.

Comparing to animals? yes, believe it or not, we do share lots of DNA, and we are primates.
furthermore, God would not tolerate being mocked...animals ARE a creation by God, and we can look to them to do Scientific studies to help us all the time, let's not ignore lab research!

It seems like this discussion has gotten to a point where all we have established is that we disagree on some things. I don't accept that homosexuality is something that comes from God or that the fact that some animals do it makes it okay for people. And, it's clear you have your disagreements with me, too. The cool thing about Christ is that He is inclusive enough for His people to disagree.

I think we would agree that being gay, and even engaging in homosexual activity does not preclude someone from being a Christian. I think we would also agree that we are both sinners and needs God's grace. As for where we disagree, I think the discussion has reached a point where we agree to disagree for now. I just want to avoid getting so distracted by the argument that we lose sight of the more important points of grace and God's perfect love.

I appreciate your comments.

God Bless.