Why is hell even necessary?

[sabercroft]

How is asking for more information in order to know what it is I'm supposed to refute "dodging"?

Because the information is already provided, it's you who seems absolutely determined to soldier on, bravely ignoring the presented information and pretending it isn't there.

Again, is there a reason why you're so adamant on not watching the videos, and then pretending that you haven't been provided with any information?

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

Because the information is already provided

No it wasn't. It took me several posts just to get "How did Judas die" out of him. And "how did Judas die" isn't even a contradiction.

 

[sabercroft]

No it wasn't. It took me several posts just to get "How did Judas die" out of him. And "how did Judas die" isn't even a contradiction.

Again: why are you so adamant on not watching the videos? Why are you now progressing to the stage of being hell-bent on ignoring not only the videos, but also my question of why are you so adamant on refusing to watch the videos?

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

Again: why are you so adamant on not watching the videos? Why are you now progressing to the stage of ignoring not only the videos, but also my question of why you so adamantly refuse to watch the videos?

1. I'm not talking to the guy in the video.
2. Because I'm recording old American Routes episodes and playing a video will interfere with that
3. Because I've seen them many times before.

This is not the first time they've been brought up here.

I'm going back to school to finish a couple of degrees I left unfinished years ago. I wonder if any of my instructors would accept my answering a question with, "Hey, why ask me? Just watch this video."

 

[Flowerandthevine]

I don't believe in hell...no loving God would set a person on this earth just so many years and determine their place in eternity on those few years. God is much bigger than that. The Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church came up with hell in the 4th century at the same time they did away with the idea of Christian Reincarnation..based on finding Christ and ending the earthly cycling. How convenient!

I'm with you Silverymoon!

 

[sabercroft]

1. I'm not talking to the guy in the video.
2. Because I'm ripping old American Routes episodes and playing a video will interfere with that
3. Because I've seen them many times before.

This is not the first time they've been brought up here.

1. No, but that doesn't mean the videos aren't evidence. If you have any questions about, say, Pythagoras' theorem in maths class, does it mean that you'll only accept an answer from Pythagoras himself?

2. Fair enough, but nobody is demanding that you reply immediately. You can always reply when its convenient for you, without adamantly pretending that the videos don't exist.

3. If you've seen them many times before, then a straightforward discussion about them shouldn't be too difficult, should it?

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

Nevermind. Got a PM from a moderator asking me not to debate here so, out of respect to him (or her) I won't debate here anymore.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Why is hell even necessary? I understand that God can't be in the presence of unholiness (except when he came to earth?) and I know that he's Just, so sinners can't go to heaven. But he's also merciful.

Propositions not all Christians would agree with. I think that a biblical understanding of God is that of course He is in the presence of unholiness and sin. The Psalmist specifically writes that it is impossible to hide from the Divine Presence, "If I make my bed in She'ol, You are there".

It seems to me that the perfect balance between Justice and Mercy is after death Christians go to heaven, everyone else ceases to exist. Why would a loving God punish the majority of people for eternity, ETERNITY! for the sin of not accepting His love?

Some do subscribe to this basic idea, it's called Annihilationism (or "Conditional Immortality"), the righteous are granted eternal and immortal life, while the wicked who are not innately immortal simply cease existing.

Don't tell me that we send ourselves to hell. We don't. I'm choosing right now not to go. But according to the Bible, I'm going anyway. God chooses to send people to hell. He could just...you know...NOT send us there. Just annihilate our souls so that we are no longer aware or even exist. But instead He chooses to go above and beyond what is necessary to satisfy Justice. He becomes vengeful, unloving, and unmerciful. Or is there something I'm missing? I was a Christian for 22 years so I feel like I have a firm grasp of the theology. But then again I haven't read the Bible much recently in the past few years so maybe there's something I forgot that clears the whole thing up.

The issue of "choice" here is largely dependent on what what defines or understands Hell to be.

If Hell is my own interior agony experienced in the eternal presence of God's love--an agony of my own creation, an agony I create and sustain only for myself, and if at every moment I have the opportunity just stop and enjoy God I actively and persistently in every moment choose to be in that agony then of course it's my choice.

If everyone, everyone utterly, goes into the presence of God to experience His love for all eternity, then ultimately how I experience that is going to be up to me. Do I enjoy God or do I turn inward toward myself, and cringe with self-loathing and remorse?

"As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful.

That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability." - St. Isaac the Syrian

And mods, this is a genuine question. I'm not trolling or being confrontational. I want to know what the Bible has to say about this.

Simply put, Christians have been debating this for about 2000 years.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[razeontherock]

Ok Mike, I'm not sure how this thread turned to the videos you posted, but your PhD is wrong, plain and simple. His very first premise about why the Gospel was written in the first place is dead wrong, and he's very assuming in the statement. In other words, he never seriously considered it.

Next up, people have taken to the profession that Scripture is Divine "in it's original autographs." Take that as you will but the errors and issues you have raised are petty. Not a one of them has substance. It's a non-issue.

Next, whoever it was that objected, had a valid issue. If you need to turn to others, this is no longer your concern(s). We're not here to help Google explore Christianity, and the *cough* "Bible scholar* you presented certainly has no interest in exploring Christianity. (He was a poor choice, btw)

Your interest in this thread was stated as "why is hell necessary?" That could reasonably branch off into several areas. Some of them might prove interesting?

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

Ok Mike, I'm not sure how this thread turned to the videos you posted, but your PhD is wrong, plain and simple. His very first premise about why the Gospel was written in the first place is dead wrong, and he's very assuming in the statement. In other words, he never seriously considered it.

Next up, people have taken to the profession that Scripture is Divine "in it's original autographs." Take that as you will but the errors and issues you have raised are petty. Not a one of them has substance. It's a non-issue.

Next, whoever it was that objected, had a valid issue. If you need to turn to others, this is no longer your concern(s). We're not here to help Google explore Christianity, and the *cough* "Bible scholar* you presented certainly has no interest in exploring Christianity. (He was a poor choice, btw)

Your interest in this thread was stated as "why is hell necessary?" That could reasonably branch off into several areas. Some of them might prove interesting?

I know the videos are off topic but at one point T&W asked why I don't believe in the God of the Bible. So I told him. It's because I don't believe the Bible is a credible historical source. If you think that doesn't matter and there's some deeper mystical meaning in it despite the fact that the history contained within it is wrong and it is internally inconsistent, then that's fine. I know a few gnostics and cabalists who would like to hang with you. I'm not a mystic however.

To me, the Bible is on the same level as the Enuma Elish, the Bhagavad Gita and the Epic of Gilgamesh; I LOVE them all as someone who is interested in ancient texts. But I don't follow the Enuma Elish or The Epic of Gilgamesh. (They're actually even older than the old testament)

 

[elman]

I know the videos are off topic but at one point T&W asked why I don't believe in the God of the Bible. So I told him. It's because I don't believe the Bible is a credible historical source. If you think that doesn't matter and there's some deeper mystical meaning in it despite the fact that the history contained within it is wrong and it is internally inconsistent, then that's fine. I know a few gnostics and cabalists who would like to hang with you. I'm not a mystic however.

To me, the Bible is on the same level as the Enuma Elish, the Bhagavad Gita and the Epic of Gilgamesh; I LOVE them all as someone who is interested in ancient texts. But I don't follow the Enuma Elish or The Epic of Gilgamesh. (They're actually even older than the old testament)

But they do not teach God loves us.

 

[sabercroft]

But they do not teach God loves us.

So an ancient text being inaccurate doesn't matter as long as the message appeals to you?

 

[createdtoworship]

Hell is necessary to prevent us from gaining eternal life unnecessarily.

Especially if we reject the fundamentals of the Gospel and Christ.

 

[sabercroft]

Hell is necessary to prevent us from gaining eternal life unnecessarily.

Especially if we reject the fundamentals of the Gospel and Christ.

Isn't death enough to accomplish that? Sending people to Hell only sees to it that they gain eternal life as well, albeit being under perpetual torture.

 

[razeontherock]

To me, the Bible is on the same level as the Enuma Elish, the Bhagavad Gita and the Epic of Gilgamesh; I LOVE them all as someone who is interested in ancient texts. But I don't follow the Enuma Elish or The Epic of Gilgamesh. (They're actually even older than the old testament)

I'm not sure I'd agree as to the "older than" part. There may very well be a "common ancestor" thing going on, w/ the Hebrew writings being penned latest out of these. I do expect Gilgamesh and Elish have insights which would help to "open up" at least some aspect of the OT.

And you do realize Christianity was never about following what was written, right?

 

[elman]

So an ancient text being inaccurate doesn't matter as long as the message appeals to you?

It matters in the search for truth about God. I believe God is, and loves us. If that is true, then ancient text that do not say this, would not be equal to ancient texts that did.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

But they do not teach God loves us.

It doesn't matter what they teach, it matters what is actually true.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

I'm not sure I'd agree as to the "older than" part. There may very well be a "common ancestor" thing going on, w/ the Hebrew writings being penned latest out of these. I do expect Gilgamesh and Elish have insights which would help to "open up" at least some aspect of the OT.

And you do realize Christianity was never about following what was written, right?

Right but would you even know about any of it if it weren't written down for you? It all springs from this ancient text called the Bible, so whether or not it is credible matters. At least it matters to me because I care about whether or nor my view of reality accurately reflects reality.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

It matters in the search for truth about God. I believe God is, and loves us. If that is true, then ancient text that do not say this, would not be equal to ancient texts that did.

Why do you believe God loves us? Probably because of some ancient text or texts or at least your interpretation of them. It's circular reasoning. The first you ever heard about a loving God was when you either read about him in an ancient text, or someone told you about their belief in him based on an ancient text.

I believe God is love because an ancient text says that God is love so any ancient text that says God is love is true and the rest are false because God is love. And I believe God is love because.... [repeat]

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

Hell is necessary to prevent us from gaining eternal life unnecessarily.

Especially if we reject the fundamentals of the Gospel and Christ.

Just repeating what sabercroft said. Total annihilation of the soul at death would accomplish the same thing. Are you a parent? Could you ever imagine condemning your child to suffer FOR ETERNITY simply for not accepting you as a father?