Why is hell eternal?

[Natro]

Does anyone realy deserve eternal damnation?

 

[Zoot]

For finite wrongs?

Not by anything we'd recognise as "justice" or "deserving", but just as the wisdom of God is foolishness to men, the justice of God is injustice to men.

 

[Robby]

Does anyone realy deserve eternal damnation?

No they do not.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Good question. God is eternal, and so is everything about Him. I just compiled a short list a couple of days ago.

His word is eternal. Psalm 119:89
His ways are eternal. Habbakuk 3:6
His law is eternal. Psalm 119"160
His pleasures are eternal. Psalm 16:11
His refuge is eternal. Deuteronomy 33:27
His name is eternal. Genesis 21:33
His kingdom is eternal. Daniel 4:3
His love is eternal. 1 Kings 10:9
His blessings are eternal. Psalm 21:6
The life He gives is eternal. Matthew 19:29
The praise due Him is eternal. Psalm 111:10
His glory is eternal. 2 Timothy 2:10
His power and divine nature are eternal. Romans 1:20
His judgment is eternal. Hebrews 6:3
His redemption is eternal. Hebrews 9:12
His inheritance is eternal. Hebrews 9:15
His wrath is eternal. Matthew 25:41; 25:46

Blessings,
Whitehorse

 

[CSMR]

For finite wrongs?

Not by anything we'd recognise as "justice" or "deserving", but just as the wisdom of God is foolishness to men, the justice of God is injustice to men.

Haha.

Romans 1:32: Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die...

The justice of God is understood by men. Paul was being specific when he said (1 Corinthians 1:24) that what to those who believe is the wisdom of God - Christ - is foolishness to unbelieving man. Christ is the paradox in which wrongdoers are declared innocent.

The quotation from Romans shows that what is deserved is "death". So not everlasting punishment. (In Romans 1 the sin also seems to be a punishment in itself.) Thus "the wicked are like chaff", a common expression in the Old Testament. That is why "life" or "everlasting life" or the "ressurection" are reserved for those whom God accounts righteous. There isn't a ressurection for those who are not, a ressurection into eternal hell.

What Jesus means in the image of the fires of hell is I think to give an image of the emnity of God, an image of being on the other side of His judgement, and not temporarily, but on the other side of the final judgement. (He also uses the chaff expression, in which the chaff is burned up.) It is not sufficient to see judgement as death; we have also to see the wrath of God against us.

 

[Thwingly]

Hello everyone,

First, thank you everyone who posted here, even though they were all extremely short for such a good question.

Secondly, I am in the position that yes, people deserve eternal damnation.

Thirdly, I believe based on the following logic.
In a classroom setting, if you disobey the teacher, you might get a detention or referal, or whatever... If you disobey the government, you could be sent to prison. These are finite authorities, and thus from disobeying them you get finite punishments. However, God is the eternal authority, it would be unjust for him not to punish someone eternally for disobeying him. No you might respond, but hell is a horrible place! The Bible says men will be punished according to their works. Since obviously some people have done more evil deeds than others, we can deduce that their will probably be punishments in degrees according to the persons sins.

Matthew 7:2
For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure it will be measured out to you.

So we have a certain degree of punishment for each moment based on the degree of sin a person commits, and this continues for eternity, because they sinned against God the eternal authority.

I'm open to objections/questions/comments.

-Thwingly

 

[CSMR]

So we have a certain degree of punishment for each moment based on the degree of sin a person commits, and this continues for eternity

I'm open to objections/questions/comments.

-Thwingly

I'd say eternal rather means "not temporal" or absolute, rather than "for an infinite amount of time". When we say, "God's glory is eternal", do we really mean for an infinite amount of time? Surely we mean that God glory just is, while we are and then are not.

I don't think one should say that people commit different degrees of sin. Perhaps we realize it to different degrees and some sins are more obvious, and some sins pervert our understanding more than others. According to Paul in Romans 3, "We are under the power of sin" and "no-one seeks God". If we understand this (which I do very dimly) then we can understand Jesus' equating of lust with adultery, hatred with murder in seriousness. God's judgement is portrayed as acceptance or rejection, without anything intermediate.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I'd say eternal rather means "not temporal" or absolute, rather than "for an infinite amount of time". When we say, "God's glory is eternal", do we really mean for an infinite amount of time? Surely we mean that God glory just is, while we are and then are not.

I don't think one should say that people commit different degrees of sin. Perhaps we realize it to different degrees and some sins are more obvious, and some sins pervert our understanding more than others. According to Paul in Romans 3, "We are under the power of sin" and "no-one seeks God". If we understand this (which I do very dimly) then we can understand Jesus' equating of lust with adultery, hatred with murder in seriousness. God's judgement is portrayed as acceptance or rejection, without anything intermediate.

The opposite of temporal is eternal. Our bodies are temporal, but our souls are eternal. And so is hell-the Bible is clear on that.

The Bible makes the two distinctions that I can remember:

1. A sin that leads to death as opposed to those which do not
2. An eternal sin.

I'm interested to know more about what you meant about nothing intermediate, though-did you mean here, or in the afterlife?

 

[feral]

It doesn't seem fair, but then again why would any father who even pretended to love his kids put them in a place of fire? He's either not loving or there isn't a hell....

 

[Fiendishjester]

The concept of hell has been made eternal to frighten people into being on the right side of the doctrine. Although eternal heaven doesn't seem so inviting either, if you think about it.

While we're on the subject, how does God love someone while they're suffering for eternity? Does His mercy have a limit, because it seems to, according to the belief in an eternal hell.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

It doesn't seem fair, but then again why would any father who even pretended to love his kids put them in a place of fire? He's either not loving or there isn't a hell....

God doesn't do this to His children.

This is only true of individuals whose refusal to submit to God and call Him Father is permanent. So the consequences are likewise. They never wanted Him, so they will never have Him. It's their choice.

 

[hogrifle]

Hell, as well as heaven, must be eternal. This world allows for the existence of both good and evil, but heaven and hell, being both perfect or unmixed realms, must of necessity possess either an entirety of evil, in the case of hell, or an entirety of good, in the case of heaven. One reason why hell must be permanent is because there is no possibility for any moral "good" there. If there cannot be anything worthy whatsoever in hell, it corresponds that there must of consequence be only that which is evil. If hell, then, comprehends evil and evil alone, it also stands to reason that God can only find actions there worthy of punishment and none worthy of positive reward, without exception, if hell is a perfectly consistent realm.

For what worthy good deeds will God kindly release any captives from hell for? What good deeds??? Those there CANNOT commit any virtuous actions or would ever wish to. We have very little basis in our understandings to fully realize just what perfection in a realm would mean. We are in a universe now where nothing, it seems, is truly perfect, and cannot conceive of such stringency, but it must be in order to the preserving of God's flawless perfection. We will all soon stand in eternity where purity of natures WILL be demanded in either of both realms. It must be so, for God, Who is perfect, must eventually demand a perfect recompense, or fail Himself in perfection of character, which prospect can never be.

 

[CSMR]

The opposite of temporal is eternal. Our bodies are temporal, but our souls are eternal. And so is hell-the Bible is clear on that.

The Bible makes the two distinctions that I can remember:

1. A sin that leads to death as opposed to those which do not
2. An eternal sin.

I'm interested to know more about what you meant about nothing intermediate, though-did you mean here, or in the afterlife?

There are two judgements of God - acceptance, the mystery in which we enter His eternal kingdom, and rejection, whose result is death.
What if we are partly good and partly bad? I for instance, have not murdered anyone, but have coveted my neighbours posessions. But according to Jesus, my not murdering is not accepted by God because my obedience is purely external; internally I murder (hate) my brother.
According to Paul, we (but for our justification in Christ) are "slaves of sin". According to Jesus "no man can serve two masters". Therefore we do not serve God.
According to James, "whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it". Breaking the law even only in one point demonstrates our true situation of antaganism to God, which in other points we may decieve ourselves about.

So I think it's clear that biblically there's no intermediate sin. To use hogrifle's words in his last post, there is nothing worthy whatsoever - on Earth.
My understanding of this is very partial though! - and a rather external understanding.

Sin that leads to death = unforgiven sin (in which the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is included - please don't ask me what this means!)
Sin that does not = forgiven sin

Because sin leads to death, there is nothing immortal in us, including our "soul". However, if we are raised with Christ, "the mortal puts on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:54)

Hope this helps,

Charles

 

[Thwingly]

Hello again!

I'd say eternal rather means "not temporal" or absolute, rather than "for an infinite amount of time". When we say, "God's glory is eternal", do we really mean for an infinite amount of time? Surely we mean that God glory just is, while we are and then are not.

I don't think one should say that people commit different degrees of sin. Perhaps we realize it to different degrees and some sins are more obvious, and some sins pervert our understanding more than others. According to Paul in Romans 3, "We are under the power of sin" and "no-one seeks God". If we understand this (which I do very dimly) then we can understand Jesus' equating of lust with adultery, hatred with murder in seriousness. God's judgement is portrayed as acceptance or rejection, without anything intermediate.

Firstly, I would say that God's glory continues for an infinite amount of time. Why? Because it's true. In Revelation 20 it describes that Satan will be punished forever and ever. If there were no time this would not be possible. Therefore I will remain in my position. When I say, "people commit different degrees of sin," perhaps I should have included an example! Look at Hitler and the guy next door. Hitler was responsible for millions of deaths... how about the guy next door? While both have sinned, Hitler's actions throughout his life were a lot worse than the actions of the guy next door.

While I don't have my Bible to look at the context of Romans 3, I must point out that Christians are not under the power of sin, Christ has redeemed them and they have been set free.

It seems, as I've read through the post (I'm not sure though) that some people have brought of two different hell-related issues.

1) How can God be loving if there is a hell?
2) How could people experience hell if they are "dead"?

I'll aim to answer these questions, and if they never actually came up, then I suppose I'm answering them ahead of time...

1) How can God be loving if there is a hell?
Actually, one possible reason there is a hell is because God is loving. He doesn't only love you my friend, he loves justice, righteousness, and holiness as well. Since God is so incredibly holy, he can not simply overlook our sins, God has to balance justice/hell (what we deserve) with love/heaven (what we don't deserve. And if you don't choose his love, you don't get his love (free will).

2) Death, as in the scriptures, is use three ways.

Physical death- Results from Adam's inherited sin.
Spiritual death- Separation from God.
The "Second death"- Eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

The second death happens after the physical death on Judgment day if you don't get rid of the spiritual death. Essentially, this notion that we "disappear" after we die physically is not supported in the scriptures. We will remain concious, but life and death are matters of being connected or being separated from God. I could find some verses, but I can't seem to find my Bible (it was in my backpack, which was moved without my knowledge...) sorry about that.

Thanks people,
Thwingly

 

[feral]

God doesn't do this to His children.

This is only true of individuals whose refusal to submit to God and call Him Father is permanent. So the consequences are likewise. They never wanted Him, so they will never have Him. It's their choice.

It's not so much a refusal to submit to an authority you know to be present, it's not knowing that such an authority even exists to submit to. Does anyone really deserve hell simply for being unconvinced or unaware of the presence of god? Would not god rather make himself known to them so that they surrender their doubts and accept him? I know that if it was me, I would prefer to go to any lengths to convince the beings I loved to do what they needed to do, rather then ignore them and then punish them for ignorance.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

It's not so much a refusal to submit to an authority you know to be present, it's not knowing that such an authority even exists to submit to. Does anyone really deserve hell simply for being unconvinced or unaware of the presence of god? Would not god rather make himself known to them so that they surrender their doubts and accept him? I know that if it was me, I would prefer to go to any lengths to convince the beings I loved to do what they needed to do, rather then ignore them and then punish them for ignorance.

Well, I think God expects us to trust Him based on His character, not our understanding. He's God whether or not people choose to receive Him, and He does promise to reveal Himself to those who diligently seek Him. So if someone isn't sure, how hard are they trying to find out? I think there are things ingrained in humanity that hinder people's desire, and that's where the real problem is. We have a promise from a God of perfect character. I think there's a inate human tendency to wish God to conform to us, but when we stop and think about who He really is, compared to what we are, it's just not an option.

Hebrews 11:6

11:6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So this would mean that those who never believed in Him never sought Him, either.

 

[River88]

Well, I think God expects us to trust Him based on His character, not our understanding. He's God whether or not people choose to receive Him, and He does promise to reveal Himself to those who diligently seek Him. So if someone isn't sure, how hard are they trying to find out?

Exactly.
And also, as a note to some people, just because sinners are sent to hell when they die dosen't mean God is cruel or "only has an extent to His mercy". God blessed us with free will (which many of us seem to horribly abuse) and He gives us a whole lifetime of chances to be led to Him. Don't blame God because people go to hell. God dosen't force us to sin, but because some of us make the choice to sin with our own free will, and are never sorry (and choose to never follow God), our time ticks away and, unfortunatly, people reject Him until death.
For a simple example, say you have two kids, and only enough money to send one to college. One of them earns great grades in school, is respectful, follows the rules, gets his work done on time, and stays away from trouble. Meanwhile, the other child is flunking their classes, getting into bad things like drinking and drugs, never listens to a word you say, never gets his work done, and is always into trouble. Most people, without question, would probably send the child who earned good grades and followed the rules on to college, and from there he would have a good chance at a bright future, a good career and all of that.
I guess you could look at that with how people go to hell. God is the parent, we are His children. The good ones who follow Him, give Him praise, and listen to His Word go on to a much, much better place.
So what do you do with the disobediant children when it comes to the end of the road? Well, if they are not sorry and have no intention of wanting anything to do with you, I guess they should be punished, right? They really haven't done any good, and there really isn't any plentyful reward they deserve, so what else to do with them then to send them to a place where they maybe will become sorry.
Hell is reasonable, if you look deep enough into it, and God is in no way to blame for the people who are sent there. It was their choice to abuse their gift of free will and sin against God without repenting.
Now I'm not saying that just because someone wasn't perfect about living a sin-free life means that they go to hell. I personally believe that someone could be at the end of their lifetime, and if they asked for forgivness for their sins and truely meant it, and accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, that they could very well go on to heaven when they die.

 

[Thwingly]

Hey everyone,

It seems I was right, the question is not why God sends people to hell, that was presupposed to be so in the original question of the thread, "Why is hell eternal?", and so, if anyone is interested in discussing why God sends people to hell, please make a new thread, there are so many points you can make about this subject that it is so much more simpler to discuss it singularly. The question is, why is hell eternal? In my original response I discussed my first point, I have two more to add to that. Here they are:

1) God is an infinite and eternal authority. Unlike your parents or the school you went to/are going to, he will always be in charge and has complete sovereignty. If you disobey a finite authority, you get a finite punishment, but if you disobey an infinite authority, you get an infinite punishment.

2) I would like to ask a similar question to the original, why do are actions have eternal implications? It's easy to ignore that you will be rewarded eternally for your good deeds, in sight of non-believers being punished eternally for their evil deeds. If you expected sinners in hell to all of a sudden stop being in hell (I'm not sure where else they would go, you might think they "disappeared" though), you should be willing to accept that, if you are a Christian, you will disappear in heaven (or go somewhere else, hell is the only option though)

3) It adds meaning to our lives to know that our actions have eternal consequences either way we go. If there were not eternal consequences for our deeds, we could do whatever we wanted and not have to worry about it, but God desires that we have a purpose, and part of this means knowing that daily decisions can affect how we spend eternity.

So, is this issue resolved yet?

It seems that too many people are caught in the horridness of hell and ignore the wonderfulness of heaven, however it is paramount that we recognize the extreme... God infinitely hates evil and infinitely loves good. We cannot comprehend that, which might explain why we question it.

There are two sides, two hands of the balance, love and justice.

-Thwingly

 

[Fiendishjester]

So in the end is God responsible for people going to hell, judging by the fact that He created it specifically for that certain class of people?

 

[BInC]

Why is hell eternal? Well, to explain my thoughts on this, I have to kind of go off subject for a bit...



I believe that God does not simply exist at all points in time. I believe instead that he exists at a place above us in time. Imagine that you are looking at a bigpainting. You may not be as tall as the painting, but you can still look at or touch any part of the painting. You are not part of the painting, but you can affect it (by writing on it or spilling somthing on it ). I believe God is like this. He is outside of our plane of time. He looks at us, and can affect us.

Heaven is out there with him. It exists seperate from the timeline we are in now. Hell is the opposite of heaven, so it too would exist in a seperate timeline. Like existing in a different room than the painting of earth. It might not be eternal in the sense that unbelievers will spend unending years in hell, but in the sense that after they die that is all that will exist for them. The room of Hell may not be an infinitely huge room, but they will be locked in and that is all they will have.



The bible gives no direct evidence of my theory, but it is the best way I have been able to think of to explain a God that knows the past, present, and future (among other things). As always I am open to discussion, and just say so if I didn't make myself clear enough.

To Fiendishjester: Is God responsible? look at it like this. Some guy dressed in white comes up to you. He tells you "I know that you have done some things wrong, and probably will do more. But I am prepared to forgive for all that if you will just ask me to. After that, I can take you over to my house and we can hang out for a while, have a good time." Then he gestures to a guy in black in the corner of the room. "Him though, he won't repent and I am going to lock him up forever. If you really want to, you can go with him, but I wouldn't reccomend it 'cause the place he is going isn't very cool."

Now in our society we consider people "responsible" when they can understand their actions and understand the consequences of them. We call it maturity. God is assuming we are mature here. Unless you are willing to admit you are immature and irresponsible, I would say YOU are responsible for what happens to you when you die.

I am not sure about what the bible says on this, but I would like to believe that babies that have not even had the time to learn of God do not go to hell. I don't claim to know what happens to them, but that is probably another topic that should be reserved for a seperate thread.