Why is God so hidden? Why must we seek Him to Find Him?

[Paterfamilia]

No it doesn't. Whatever the universes exist in has its own questions. But there isn't any evidence to show that it isn't eternal, in the way that the Big Bang shows a beginning. But not knowing a scientific explanation doesn't mean that the only logical choice is a theistic one. That stance has been wrong so many times in the past.

Okay maybe I misunderstood this, and I certainly apologize if I did. I have no desire to misquote or misrepresent what you are saying.

 

[Moral Orel]

Okay maybe I misunderstood this, and I certainly apologize if I did. I have no desire to misquote or misrepresent what you are saying.

Thank you.

When I said this:

But there isn't any evidence to show that it isn't eternal,

I was talking about this that I said just before it:

Whatever the universes exist in

And then I acknowledged the beginning of this universe as the Big Bang here:

the Big Bang shows a beginning

 

[Paterfamilia]

Thank you.

When I said this:



I was talking about this that I said just before it:



And then I acknowledged the beginning of this universe as the Big Bang here:

Okay got it. Nothingness. You are correct, I did misunderstand.

Yeah, nothing really is nothing, which is very difficult (some say near impossible) to comprehend. In fact when Krauss talks about the universe coming into being out of nothing, he isn't talking about "really nothing". The quantum fluctuations he describes coming in and out of being, temporary energy points etc., are not really coming out of nothing, as in nothing.

I suppose I imagine nothing like this. On theism, there exists dimensional multiplicity, of which the physical universe comprises several dimensions, depending on your viewpoint. If we lived in the spiritual dimension, which does not occupy any physical space of any kind, and the physical universe were to suddenly disappear, we wouldn't even know it. It would be nothing to us.

In like manner, we can imagine any non-existent possible universe, as actually being nothing, if it in fact has never been instantiated.

Also I noticed that you more than once expressed the desire to get back to the OP. Probably my most egregious crime of the day was taking it so far off course. I had zero illusions about convincing you to believe in God because there is no multi-verse. Not at all. Just got caught up in a discussion that interests me a lot.

Sorry about that.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...There is overwhelming evidence that the universe had a beginning. Atheists hate that, and that's why there is so much effort and crazy models trying to find a different explanation.

Well, no. The evidence points to a beginning of the expansion of the universe that we see continuing around us. Extrapolating further back leads to a 'singularity', where our physical models give meaningless results. Scientists hate that, and the majority of physicists in the field think it's a mistake to extrapolate further back that way, just as it's a mistake to extrapolate a grenade explosion (just an analogy, the big bang wasn't an explosion) back to a singularity; there's also the previously unaccounted-for influence of quantum mechanics at this point. So they've been working on the mathematical framework underlying the models and including QM, to find alternative solutions. A variety of such solutions have been suggested; studies continue.

None of this addresses the issue of ultimate origins (e.g. of a possible multiverse) so neither believers nor atheists are in a substantially different position - unless, perhaps, the 'no boundary' temporally closed models, such as the much-criticised Hartle-Hawking Model, gain some traction...

 

[Locutus]

Well, no. The evidence points to a beginning of the expansion of the universe that we see continuing around us. Extrapolating further back leads to a 'singularity', where our physical models give meaningless results. Scientists hate that, and the majority of physicists in the field think it's a mistake to extrapolate further back that way, just as it's a mistake to extrapolate a grenade explosion (just an analogy, the big bang wasn't an explosion) back to a singularity; there's also the previously unaccounted-for influence of quantum mechanics at this point. So they've been working on the mathematical framework underlying the models and including QM, to find alternative solutions. A variety of such solutions have been suggested; studies continue.

None of this addresses the issue of ultimate origins (e.g. of a possible multiverse) so neither believers nor atheists are in a substantially different position - unless, perhaps, the 'no boundary' temporally closed models, such as the much-criticised Hartle-Hawking Model, gain some traction...

Excellent post. Just saying

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Excellent post. Just saying

Thank you; I'm just trying to keep things straight & clear

 

[Colter]

"There are two basic reasons for believing in a God who fosters human survival:

• 1. Human experience, personal assurance, the somehow registered hope and trust initiated by the indwelling Thought Adjuster.

• 2. The revelation of truth, whether by direct personal ministry of the Spirit of Truth, by the world bestowal of divine Sons, or through the revelations of the written word."
  
  UB 1955

 

[Emmy]

Dear Shempster. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. God wants our love, freely given and NO conditions tagged on.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and you shall receive," we ask God for what we need, and God will provide.
We keep asking for Love and Joy, and then we thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. (neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends)
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," change from being selfish and unloving, to loving and caring and always be friendly and helpful, (if needed.) God sees our loving efforts, and God will Bless us. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. God will not be mocked, and if we truly need and want God, our Heavenly Father will guide and bless us. " Galatians 6: 7-8." God is Love and God wants loving sons and daughters. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring. God will always know when we need Him, and God is always read to help us.
I say this with love, Shempster. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Shempster]

Well thank You Emmy. My oldest daughter is an Emmy!
I do know why God is so hidden. The reason why I asked the question is that hopefully someone with better language skills than mine can explain it in a simple way that explains it best.
Generally, He is hidden because the evil one will always use any loophole he can muster. He will tell you that you can know God and be saved without total repentance if you give money, ask forgiveness and attend church. Entire denominations buy into these loopholes and it causes many to "miss God" by getting all tied up in doctrines, creeds and holidays. (this system is what Jesus calls "Mystery Babylon" in Revelation)
Plus it is just a fact that when you love someone for real you DO invest whatever amount of time it takes to get closer to them. And with time and effort, He reveals himself to us. Think about that new boyfriend/girlfriend and how to kept after them.

 

[Neochristian]

The same reason you forgot you're wearing glasses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rick Otto]

The way I know Him now is nothing like I "knew" God when I was younger. But I would never have known Him like I do now if it were not for the years of 1. Praying 2.studying scriptures 3. taking notes about my experiences and comparing them to the bible and modern science...I could go on and on. What I am wondering is that if I had not done all of that over the last 20 years I might have no clue who He is or even if He even exists in the first place.

So why is it that God hides himself so cleverly? So much so that honestly nobody can really PROVE any doctrine because there is always a verse to debunk the theory.

Thoughts?

My first reaction to reading your thread title was to think, "Because you don't see him in everything", and "nothing is found without first being sought"...
Same here with years of all kinds of study, but I had been inspired with what I have come to accept as being born again, saved, ...I don't, can't corner it with a label exactly, but I felt personal confirmation of my faith and love for him, at four years old, a couple of years before
first grade catechism. So I have always held all organizations at intellectual arm's length.
I think the problem with proof of God may at least in part be what we are willing to accept as evidence.
I've generally found it easiest to see evidence of him in his creation, and in real time.

Pss.19
[1] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
[2] Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
[3] There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
[4] Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
[5] Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
[6] His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
[7] The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

...there's more, but you get the drift.

So my cognition of his presence and communication is based on more like "everything ing in me and everything around me"... so the clever concealment is more about my own insensitivity, the way I see it.

Great post. Great questions. Thank you so much!

 

[Rick Otto]

Question. Do you believe in a literal hell?

Are we given a spirit of fear?

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't know why, but at times I do find it rather annoying.

Then there's always the possibility that the non-dualists are
right, and that God is in plain sight, in the form of us, as we
are manifestations of Him.... I really want God to be "other", a separate entity
with whom I can have a relationship. I don't want to be just
another one of His sock-puppets, so to speak. He may as
well not even exist... As one
Hindu mystic said, "I want to eat sugar. I don't want to be
sugar."

-

Motive is everything when mind finally over-reaches matter.
The separation, is physical reality... reality, but not the total reality of all that exists, because the unity, the singularity, the undifferentiated consciousness, if you will, is spiritual, not physical. The best current evidence of "mind over matter" is that experiment that proved observation affects results...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

 

[Rick Otto]

The heart and core of the Christian religion is conversion, from the self-centered creature to the servant. Scripture and doctrine are useful, but it is the Holy Spirit that brings us to that place. Along the way our old self will die, gradually and largely unnoticed by even those around us. Our earthly reward is becoming masters of service in everything we do. This cannot be 'preached' into us as it's the work of God over time, through the Spirit. So it is the Spirit within that is the presence of God.

Amen. It is the most basic categorization of life orientation: service to self, or service to God(starting with your neighbor). Recognizing the difference (between self and God) should be priority one.

 

[Neochristian]

Amen. It is the most basic categorization of life orientation: service to self, or service to God(starting with your neighbor). Recognizing the difference (between self and God) should be priority one.

Does that lead us nearer to God, the one we are called to be most like?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... The best current evidence of "mind over matter" is that experiment that proved observation affects results...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

The link you posted says it's a common misconception:

In quantum mechanics, there is a common misconception (which has acquired a life of its own, giving rise to endless speculations) that it is the mind of a conscious observer that affects the observer effect in quantum processes. It is rooted in a basic misunderstanding of the meaning of the quantum wave function ψ and the quantum measurement process.[1]

 

[Neochristian]

The link you posted says it's a common misconception:

Yeah, I heard it didn't influence it at all, just the tools did.

 

[Rick Otto]

Does that lead us nearer to God, the one we are called to be most like?

It might. I suppose it depends in part by what you mean "nearer" and "like", but that sounds consistent with the two greatest commandments, if I'm not mistaken.
What are your thoughts?

 

[Neochristian]

It might. I suppose it depends in part by what you mean "nearer" and "like", but that sounds consistent with the two greatest commandments, if I'm not mistaken.
What are your thoughts?

Yes 'near' seems figurative but 'like' seem pretty straightforward. Perhaps near means like. If we are made in the image and likeness of God then how and why are we supposed to make a distinction between him and ourselves?

I kinda see a connection between this and the command. But one is about others and this is about God.

 

[Noxot]

Christianity actually goes into details saying that the Son of God is dual in nature ( fully human and fully God) and he is ofc the second person. we don't know reality at all in Christianity without the Trinity. then we have people like pseudo-dionysius getting all apophatic about it and saying that God is not Trinity. then we have a slipknot song saying "I am one, I am all, i'm above and beyond" and i'm just like ~nods~ then i'm like, 'God is not a devil!' then slipknot is all like "i'm not your devil anymore!" then i'm like, umm when I became a christian I also heavily listened to slipknot. funny enough at one point i thought they were the antichrist and threw away all their cds I owned.

I could get all Swedenborg on you and say that the more heaven we are the more in the image of God we are, and I don't even know if that would be what swedenborg would really say or if that is what noxy would. maybe it has a bit of jacob boehme to it. maybe we don't know how to talk about reality but we talk about it anyways. it's really fun, alan watts would prob say it is like birds singing, or maybe john... um the ruysbroeck one, would say that, I don't know.

did anyone notice how important souls are to God? they are so beautiful, what can you compare a personality to?