Why is God evil and why is there no freedom of choice?

Radrook

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Weird how some people believe that God established roasting humans alive forever as punishment while still describing him as good. Any human ruler punishing his subjects that way would be considered criminally insane and committing a crime against humanity.
 
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Hawkins

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Weird how some people believe that God established roasting humans alive forever as punishment while still describing him as good. Any human ruler punishing his subjects that way would be considered criminally insane and committing a crime against humanity.

That rather depends who you have become at the moment when you are roasted.
 
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Radrook

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Hawkins

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Here is an article which expresses my opinion on the roasting of humans alive forever idea.

Reasons why the Hell-fire Doctrine is Immoral
http://livinglifewithoutanet.com/2011/01/27/hell-is-immoral/

It is because you can never tell who you will become after leaving God. God is the only source of good in the universe. Giving time, you are just another devil after leaving God. God reserves the right to roast devils if they decided to go beyond what is tolerable.

That's why it is said that the Lake of Fire was first prepared for devils who are originally angels. The same place can be for the devils who are originally humans.

God actually granted more freewill to humans than the angels. Theoretically, humans can go more evil if not the same as the angels can.
 
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Radrook

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It is because you can never tell who you will become after leaving God. God is the only source of good in the universe. Giving time, you are just another devil after leaving God. God reserves the right to roast devils if they decided to go beyond what is tolerable.

That's why it is said that the Lake of Fire was first prepared for devils who are originally angels. The same place can be for the devils who are originally humans.



God actually granted more freewill to humans than the angels. Theoretically, humans can go more evil if not the same as the angels can.

In other words you either didn't care to read the article via the link I posted or read it and disagreed with every single reason why the article says that torturing any creature forever is immoral. Correct? If indeed I am correct then I am justified in concluding that we are not worshiping the same God since the god I worship would never do such a pointless heinous thing. Actually, if indeed any creator would do such a thing-then he automatically disqualifies himself from two very crucial things:

1. Respect
2. Worship

BTW
That's far worse than the Satanic propaganda designed to defame God's character that the Devil used in Eden.

"You will surely not die. If you eat of the fruit he will torture you forever instead!"

But of course, the time and place weren't ready for that type of character assassination.

John 8:44
New International Version
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the
beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
 
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Hawkins

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In other words you either didn't care to read the article via the link I posted or read it and disagreed with every single reason why the article says that torturing any creature forever is immoral. Correct? If indeed I am correct then I am justified in concluding that we are not worshiping the same God since the god I worship would never do such a pointless heinous thing. Actually, if indeed any creator would do such a thing-then he automatically disqualifies himself from two very crucial things:

1. Respect
2. Worship

BTW
That's far worse than the Satanic propaganda designed to defame God's character that the Devil used in Eden.

"You will surely not die. If you eat of the fruit he will torture you forever instead!"

But of course, the time and place weren't ready for that type of character assassination.

I don't need to read anything until you've made the correct assumption.

It makes not much difference to say that killing the zombies are immoral. People however morally accept the killing of all zombies because;

1) they are no longer humans
2) they are doing harms to humans when giving any chances

The same applies the humans turning themselves to devils.

Now if you are going to tell me that someone in the link you provided did make the assumption that those in hell are no longer humans, than I may consider to read it.
 
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98cwitr

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God is all knowing and all powerful.

So he creates humans knowing that some will choose to become atheists. Because he is all knowing before they are born he already know. But he still creates them anyways knowing that they are going to go to burn in eternal hell.

So God must be evil and freedom of choice doesn't really exist.

This is a profound thought that many, even many Christians, are not willing to either fully understand or conceptualize. You need to understand that as God's creation, He can do whatever with us He pleases, and the destruction and damnation of the non-elect is not something that is evil, but good.

I want you to imagine that someone breaks into your home, binds you and your family and then systematically begins to torture and kill them. You are the last one left, and as your attacker goes to slit your throat the police show up and arrest him.

You wait in fearful anticipation of justice as the man's court date approaches, and as the court preceding come to an end, the judge pronounces the man is found guilty, but will receive no punishment and be set free. How outraged would you be? How loud would you cry for justice? This is what happens when God forgives the sins of any one of us. We all deserve Hell.

The hardest thing to reconcile in Christianity is that God is both completely just and completely merciful. Jesus Christ is the reconciliation of the two; God's justice and His mercy!

While human choice is merely an illusion, we are all made for a purpose. God willing, we will come to know and understand that purpose. We have no other choice but to live by our nature. Either it is the sinful nature we are all born into, or it's a newly created nature give by the Spirit of God (Ezekiel 36).

I would strongly recommend you read Romans 9, as this very topic is discussed in detail and explains your questions. God is not evil, but He does create things that He knows will be evil, and they have a purpose...a common purpose and not necessarily a noble one.
 
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Mediakira

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God is not evil! I find a lot of good in Him. I actually can't live without Him. If your against Him you become my enemy. I love you. But you leave me to design Holy things to protect God. As, long as I live I'll protect Him. Sorry staff members. But I'm going though trials of my faith these few years and I find this is part of my calling is to protect the Holy Father and Jesus Christ till the end of me.
 
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SeraphimSarov

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God is not evil! I find a lot of good in Him. I actually can't live without Him. If your against Him you become my enemy. I love you. But you leave me to design Holy things to protect God. As, long as I live I'll protect Him. Sorry staff members. But I'm going though trials of my faith these few years and I find this is part of my calling is to protect the Holy Father and Jesus Christ till the end of me.

If he's omnipotent, why does he need your protection?
 
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Neogaia777

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Quantum Physics proves we have choices in my opinion, there are many possibilities, moment by moment nanoseconds of passing through multiple dimensions until we make a choice and focus and, according to Quantum Physics, we "birth" into existence, multiple choices until we focus and chose where we want it to be to as "real", but is it real?
 
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aiki

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Here is an article which expresses my opinion on the roasting of humans alive forever idea.

I just scanned the first few points of the article and found myself shaking my head at the profound theological/doctrinal ignorance, and serious biblical misunderstanding, and terrible logic of the writer.

If God "roasts people alive forever" it is because that is the punishment their sin and rebellion toward Him deserves. God is not over-reacting to our sin, we are badly under-reacting to it. We see in the punishment God renders upon our sin just how truly enormous and awful our sin is.

Selah.
 
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Radrook

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I just scanned the first few points of the article and found myself shaking my head at the profound theological/doctrinal ignorance, and serious biblical misunderstanding, and terrible logic of the writer.

If God "roasts people alive forever" it is because that is the punishment their sin and rebellion toward Him deserves. God is not over-reacting to our sin, we are badly under-reacting to it. We see in the punishment God renders upon our sin just how truly enormous and awful our sin is.

Selah.
Sorry but I prefer to believe that God is incapable of roasting people alive forever in the way you describe. If indeed there is such a being who does such a horrendous thing, then in my opinion, that being deserves no admiration nor worships. Instead such a being deserves to be feared and hated and if at all possible-attacked and destroyed. So I guess we differ in that area.

BTW
I think that you are going by might makes right. It doesn't.
 
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aiki

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Sorry but I prefer to believe that God is incapable of roasting people alive forever in the way you describe.

What you choose to believe doesn't change what is. The wrathful judgment of God doesn't go away just because you refuse to believe it is real.

If indeed there is such a being who does such a horrendous thing, then in my opinion, that being deserves no admiration nor worships.

Well, that is because where He sees your sin for what it really is and judges it accordingly, you do not. Rather than acknowledge that God's terrible judgment of your sin is a testimony to the immense wickedness of it, you want to find fault with God! How very human! And how very wrong! God isn't the problem, your wicked heart is! This is true of all of us.

Instead such a being deserves to be feared and hated and if at all possible-attacked and destroyed. So I guess we differ in that area.

God most certainly deserves to be feared!

Matthew 10:28
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Hebrews 10:29-31
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


This God cannot be destroyed. Not by you or anyone else. He reigns supreme over all Creation and will one day judge the World. Hate Him if you want, but your hatred is an impotent, futile thing against the will and judgment of the holy God of All.

Yes, we do differ greatly in this area. And the difference has eternal consequences. But I am on the side of God's word, the Bible. You are on the side of liberal "believers" who feel they have the right to shape God in their own image. Which God do you think you're going to meet on Judgment Day? It won't be the one you've imagined, that's for sure!

Selah.
 
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Radrook

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What you choose to believe doesn't change what is. The wrathful judgment of God doesn't go away just because you refuse to believe it is real.



Well, that is because where He sees your sin for what it really is and judges it accordingly, you do not. Rather than acknowledge that God's terrible judgment of your sin is a testimony to the immense wickedness of it, you want to find fault with God! How very human! And how very wrong! God isn't the problem, your wicked heart is! This is true of all of us.



God most certainly deserves to be feared!

Matthew 10:28
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Hebrews 10:29-31
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


This God cannot be destroyed. Not by you or anyone else. He reigns supreme over all Creation and will one day judge the World. Hate Him if you want, but your hatred is an impotent, futile thing against the will and judgment of the holy God of All.

Yes, we do differ greatly in this area. And the difference has eternal consequences. But I am on the side of God's word, the Bible. You are on the side of liberal "believers" who feel they have the right to shape God in their own image. Which God do you think you're going to meet on Judgment Day? It won't be the one you've imagined, that's for sure!

Selah.

Not all Christians agree with your interpretation of scripture.
In fact, there are millions of Christians who find that particular literal interpretation offensive and an attack upon God's character. Whenever a scriptural understanding in some way makes God out to be irrationally cruel, then it calls for a rejection because it defames his personality and makes him out to be far more evil that the very sinners that he is condemning. That's the reason why that particular interpretation is rejected. So yes, we do differ.
 
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aiki

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Not all Christians agree with your interpretation of scripture.
In fact, there are millions of Christians who find that particular literal interpretation offensive and an attack upon God's character.

Do you know what the fallacy argumentum ad populum is? You're using it here.

My "interpretation" of Scripture is plainly evident to all who read the Bible. I simply have to read what it says while deniers of God's wrathful judgment of the wicked must deny Scripture. What do you do with the verses I cited in my last post? Are you just picking and choosing those verses in the Bible that speak of God that fit with your own conception of Him and rejecting the rest? If so, how is that not making God in your own image?

Whenever a scriptural understanding in some way makes God out to be irrationally cruel,

But my comments and the Scripture I quoted don't do this. Instead, they emphasize God holiness and judgment and the wickedness of our sin. If our sin is so obscene it deserves Hell, that is not a fault in God, but a fault in us.

Selah.
 
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Radrook

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Do you know what the fallacy argumentum ad populum is? You're using it here.

My "interpretation" of Scripture is plainly evident to all who read the Bible. I simply have to read what it says while deniers of God's wrathful judgment of the wicked must deny Scripture. What do you do with the verses I cited in my last post? Are you just picking and choosing those verses in the Bible that speak of God that fit with your own conception of Him and rejecting the rest? If so, how is that not making God in your own image?



But my comments and the Scripture I quoted don't do this. Instead, they emphasize God holiness and judgment and the wickedness of our sin. If our sin is so obscene it deserves Hell, that is not a fault in God, but a fault in us.

Selah.

Human beings have certain rights that if violated constitute a crime against humanity.
It remains a crime regardless of who the perpetrator is. Almightiness does not make evil behavior righteous.
Requesting that people in heaven enjoy themselves while their brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, uncles, cousins friends and acquaintances roast alive is an evil request. Reminds me of what Pizzaro did to the Inca ruler when he forced him to dine with him with courtyard full of corpses of the Incas he had slaughtered in full view. Yet what Pizzaro did pales which what you claim God demands. That we enjoy heaven while he roasts millions of humans alive simply for the purpose of inflicting agony.. No my friend, you interpretation if indeed correct, would make God a criminal.


Not ad populum since that is not the basis for rejection.
The basis for rejection of the concept is that it plays into Satan's hands via defamation of God's character just as he cunningly defamed God in Eden via spreading lies concerning the evil God is capable of doing. That is my viewpoint. So I guess we simply disagree.

Deserve? no creature deserves to be roasted alive forever. In fact, no creature deserves to be roasted alive even for a few seconds. It is immoral punishment and might does not and never will make it right.
 
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aiki

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Human beings have certain rights that if violated constitute a crime against humanity.
It remains a crime regardless of who the perpetrator is. Almightiness does not make evil behavior righteous.

Well, you see, you're working from yourself to God and, not surprisingly, you've got the wrong end of the stick about Him. Humans have no rights that God did not give them. Their very existence depends utterly and totally upon Him every moment of every day. God has complete authority and power over every one of us. He made us and sustains us and can, therefore, do as He pleases with us. We are in His universe; He calls all the shots.

God gives life and He takes it. Never, though, is God a murderer in doing so. All life is His; there is no life without Him. What human can boast the same? None! No one! We are mere creatures; He is the Almighty Creator. What is true of Him, then, is not necessarily true of us - and vice versa.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.


So, judging God on the basis of how you judge other humans makes a profound category error. God is not just another human. And judging Him as though He is another profound error.

Requesting that people in heaven enjoy themselves while their brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, uncles, cousins friends and acquaintances roast alive is an evil request.

This is an emotional statement, but it is not a particularly rational one. And it is a Strawman to boot. We will not be looking upon God's wrathful judgment of the wicked as an evil thing but as a demonstration of His perfect justice and holiness. Seeing justice done perfectly will not be a cause for sorrow but for worship. Your emotional thinking has clouded your mind to this fact.

Reminds me of what Pizzaro did to the Inca ruler when he forced him to dine with him with courtyard full of corpses of the Incas he had slaughtered in full view. Yet what Pizzaro did pales which what you claim God demands.

But as I've already pointed out, Pizarro isn't God. He is no more like God than the clay pot a potter has made is just like the potter! But you seem to think they are the same (or, at least, close enough for direct comparison)! No wonder, then, that you're all topsy-turvy about God's holy justice. But this is what happens when God gets diminished in our thinking.
That we enjoy heaven while he roasts millions of humans alive simply for the purpose of inflicting agony..

Not simply to inflict agony but to justly punish terrible, terrible wickedness.

The basis for rejection of the concept is that it plays into Satan's hands via defamation of God's character just as he cunningly defamed God in Eden via spreading lies concerning the evil God is capable of doing. That is my viewpoint. So I guess we simply disagree.

It is not simply that we disagree. My view is grounded thoroughly in Scripture. I don't have to ignore or reject any of what the Bible says to hold my view. You, however, do have to reject some very plain and straightforward declarations of Scripture to reshape God after your personal preferences.

Deserve? no creature deserves to be roasted alive forever.

God disagrees. It might have something to do with our sin being against the Almighty, Infinite Creator of Everything. Just a thought.

In fact, no creature deserves to be roasted alive even for a few seconds. It is immoral punishment and might does not and never will make it right.

Again, a very emotional appeal you make here but it is reflective mostly of how small God has become in your thinking, not of the truth of Scripture.

I noticed you didn't reconcile those verses I posted with your view of God...

Selah.
 
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Radrook

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Well, you see, you're working from yourself to God and, not surprisingly, you've got the wrong end of the stick about Him. Humans have no rights that God did not give them. Their very existence depends utterly and totally upon Him every moment of every day. God has complete authority and power over every one of us. He made us and sustains us and can, therefore, do as He pleases with us. We are in His universe; He calls all the shots.

God gives life and He takes it. Never, though, is God a murderer in doing so. All life is His; there is no life without Him. What human can boast the same? None! No one! We are mere creatures; He is the Almighty Creator. What is true of Him, then, is not necessarily true of us - and vice versa.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.


So, judging God on the basis of how you judge other humans makes a profound category error. God is not just another human. And judging Him as though He is another profound error.



This is an emotional statement, but it is not a particularly rational one. And it is a Strawman to boot. We will not be looking upon God's wrathful judgment of the wicked as an evil thing but as a demonstration of His perfect justice and holiness. Seeing justice done perfectly will not be a cause for sorrow but for worship. Your emotional thinking has clouded your mind to this fact.



But as I've already pointed out, Pizarro isn't God. He is no more like God than the clay pot a potter has made is just like the potter! But you seem to think they are the same (or, at least, close enough for direct comparison)! No wonder, then, that you're all topsy-turvy about God's holy justice. But this is what happens when God gets diminished in our thinking.


Not simply to inflict agony but to justly punish terrible, terrible wickedness.



It is not simply that we disagree. My view is grounded thoroughly in Scripture. I don't have to ignore or reject any of what the Bible says to hold my view. You, however, do have to reject some very plain and straightforward declarations of Scripture to reshape God after your personal preferences.



God disagrees. It might have something to do with our sin being against the Almighty, Infinite Creator of Everything. Just a thought.



Again, a very emotional appeal you make here but it is reflective mostly of how small God has become in your thinking, not of the truth of Scripture.

I noticed you didn't reconcile those verses I posted with your view of God...

Selah.

1. I never said that Pizzaro is like God. I said that what he did sounds similar to the attitude which you describe your God as having.

2. The Bible tells us to imitate God. Do you torture your kinds with fire? If indeed it is a good and righteous nothing-then why don't YOU do it and prove that you really consider it a virtue?

3. Anyone who claims that perfect justice is being served via roasting humans alive forever just to see them scream doesn't know what justice is and is as far from knowing what justice is as darkness is from light.


4. I'm not appealing to emotion. I'm appealing to basic human decency which demands that totally unnecessary human suffering inflicted by anyone be considered an evil thing. Claiming to love while roasting humans alive sounds hypocritical to most people.

5. Personal preferences? The only personal preference I have is to not imagine the creator as a sadistic criminal.
That's my personal preference.

6. God doesn't disagree. You disagree and prefer that heinous interpretation over plausible ones.

7. True, his thoughts are not our thoughts. That's why his thoughts are NOT those of a human sadistic crazed maniac.

8. Many beliefs are claimed to be solidly grounded in scripture are actually mere misinterpretations. Ask a certain denominational member why he doesn't celebrate the Lords Supper by doing it exactly as Jesus instructed and he will say he has good solid scriptural reasons why. Ask others why they roll on the floor and they have solid scriptural reasons. Leaders of the Inquisition were claiming the same thing-solid scriptural reasons. It's common for people to claim solid scriptural reasons for whatever they believe.

9. Comparing giving and taking life to eternal roasting of humans is a false analogy.

10. It's not the punishment of wickedness that is the issue. That is a strawman. It is the manner of punishment that is the issue.

11. Yes, there is emotion involved when I consider the request that humans totally ignore what is being done to other humans as if these tortured humans had become non-humans as you imply simply because they sinned.
 
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Radrook

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I don't need to read anything until you've made the correct assumption.

It makes not much difference to say that killing the zombies are immoral. People however morally accept the killing of all zombies because;

1) they are no longer humans
2) they are doing harms to humans when giving any chances

The same applies the humans turning themselves to devils.

Now if you are going to tell me that someone in the link you provided did make the assumption that those in hell are no longer humans, than I may consider to read it.

Your classification of people who unrepentantly sin as being devils and non-humans isn't scriptural. Where you derive that idea from is beyond me.
 
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