This is very deep philosophy, but why would an ultimate beeing create a world, create people and teach them about love etc. Why is he good? Why do what he does and say what he says? I guess what I am digging for is that if God has no creator, why is he "created" as he is?
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Why is God as he is?
- Thread starter Plecto
- Start date
If He has no creator, He is not created. Why is He loving? We don't know, but we have an indication that He is because He created us with the ability to know being loving is good and being unloving is bad. Again why is He truthful? Because He choses to be and again He created us with the understanding that lying is not a good thing. I think He created us to have beings that He could relate with, love and be loved in return.Plecto said:
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I agree with that one
But why isn't God evil? This is what I think is strange. "he chose to be loving", why do He like to be loving? Its tempting to say "what made him like love?" but that cant be asked. He chose it because he wanted it... but if he has no creator, why do he want to be loving?
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It is the wise course for us. It therefore would be the wise course for Him. If He is evil He created us to have someone to abuse. If He is good He created us to have somenone to love. I believe the latter.Plecto said:I agree with that one
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The creator is as he/she/it is because.. well... why is a rock the way it is? Why does air move the way it does? Why do people anthropomorphise things?
I think I was a Zen Buddhist in a previous life. Talking in koans.
I think I was a Zen Buddhist in a previous life. Talking in koans.
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Plecto said:
An imperfect creator created the world, a tortured and suffering god created the world; why else would he turn away from himself and create the world? If the creator is so perfect then he wouldn't need anybody else other than himself, thus, the creator turned away from himself and created the world. A perfect mirror image of torture and suffering and pain when the creator looks away from himself, towards his creation.
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LionofGod said:
Nihilistic, but am I correct in assuming your conclusion is that the creator isn't perfect? I contend that nothing is perfect. If it was, it would be boring as hell. Pun intended. Imagine all of creation was uniform. All rocks the same size and shape, all animals living in harmony with plentiful manna from heaven, just enough rain to feed the plants and no natural disasters. Boring! Life is defined by death, and so is creation defined by the limitless forms it takes. Imperfection is godliness.
Just my opinion.
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RealityCheck
Senior Veteran
Very much condensed version.
The concept of deities that are essentially human in nature, but bigger and supernaturally powerful, dates way back before Judaism. Many ancient religions were pantheistic - a belief that many gods existed. Some believed in one supreme high god that ruled over the others (a Zeus or Wotan) but not all did. Some, like Hinduism, developed the concept that their pantheon of gods actually were different aspects, or faces, of three supreme gods, and that even these three were the basic three faces of THE supreme, unknowable being.
Somewhere around the time that the Hebrews departed Egypt (however close the Biblical accounting is or is not), the belief in a particular sky/storm god named Yahweh became prevalent with the Hebrews. But the Hebrews did not believe Yahweh to be THE one and only true god. They did, in fact, believe that other gods existed (such as Baal). Yahweh may actually be rooted in an even more ancient pantheon of gods out of Sumerian or Chaldean/Babylonian belief.
In any case, what the Hebrews believed was that Yahweh was the only god that should be worshipped, and that all other gods really existed but were evil, or subordinate to Yahweh, etc. They were "henotheistic" - a sort of in-between pantheistic and monotheistic. A belief that many gods existed, but only one was right to be worshipped.
Worship of Yahweh helped motivate the Hebrews to try to reclaim lands in what is modern day Israel. It also grew into the belief that Yahweh was the same god that their claimed Canaanite ancestors (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) had worshipped. That may or may not be the case. But also, it grew into the belief that the Hebrews were Yahweh's "chosen people", and that as chosen people they were destined to be rewarded with supreme, earthly power one day. It also meant that any time the Hebrews faltered or stumbled in power, when Jerusalem was taken by a neighboring power or the Hebrews suffered terrible battle loss, they viewed that as their failure to worship Yahweh properly, and thus Yahweh was using these other nations and people to specifically punish the Hebrews. Only when they returned to covenant with Yahweh did Yahweh again bless his chosen people.
However, it is clear in the first few books of the Bible that there is a very different god involved as well. These parts of Genesis, for example, are said to be written by the "Elohist" author (as opposed to other parts written by the "Yahwist" author). This author named God as "El" or "Elohim" and in fact this word appears still in traditional Hebrew prayers. Whereas Yahweh is identifiable as a "sky/storm god", similar perhaps to Zeus or Thor and having some physical form as well as deified form, El is not so definable. El more resembles the unknowable, intangible "God" that we often think of as existing outside of our material world, who does not designate a "chosen people" but is truly the god of the whole world and all people.
Whatever these ancient beliefs really looked like, they were both blended into the books of the Torah (along with two other authors' works, but that's another discussion). However, the theology of "Jews are the chosen people" prevailed for a long time.
[But you can find books in the OT that defy even this principle. The book of Ruth, for example, demonstrates that even foreigners and strangers are to be valued, as the author ends the story by connecting Ruth, a non-Jew who marries into a Jewish household (totally scandalous in the day, worthy of death or at least banishment), to King David, the most powerful and revered king of the Jews. ]
This theology shows up throughout the Bible. When the Assyrians chose to invade Palestine, for example, and succeeded in subjugating the lands, the failure of the Hebrews to withstand this problem was written as the Hebrews losing favor in God's eyes, for turning away from their covenant with God. When the Assyrians were later defeated through Babylonian conquest, that was seen as reward for finally turning back to God and rejecting the religion of the Assyrians (thus, the Babylonians were nothing more than God's way of turning back the Assyrians for the benefit of the Jews). But then, when the Babylonians sacked Jerusalem, burned the Temple and carried off the Jewish royalty, the prophets decreed that the Babylonians were now being used to punish the Hebrews, and they invented the theory that God's punishment is visited doubly upon them for their sins, and through many generations, in order to satisfy God's wrath.
When the Persians destroyed Babylon, that too was viewed as God relenting in his punishment of the Jews. The Greeks conquered Persia, and attempted to subvert Jewish religion. The revolt led by Judas Maccabaeus was seen as successful because the Maccabeans had God on their side, as they were "righteous worshippers."
By Jesus's time, of course, the Jews had been through so much trial and tribulation that the Romans were no more than the latest and worst oppressor yet, and beliefs were strong that the Messiah must come soon to put an end to this supreme evil and finally bring the Jewish Nation into its glory and power.
Whatever Jesus actually did or said, what we are actually left with are four gospels that likely blend a good deal of real sayings and teachings, along with teachings or actions the authors wished to insert to promote belief or particular doctrines. Christianity actually represented a major shift in Judaism, when the apostle Paul took belief in Jesus=Messiah out of the realm of pure Judaism and not only preached to Gentiles (thus bringing the God of Judaism to the entire world) but also did away with the laws of Judaism to help promote Gentile conversion and prevent Gentiles from abandoning the faith. Note that without Paul, and all he said or did to remove the Judaic aspects of belief in Christ, there would be no Christianity today. It would have remained a specific sect of Judaism, and eventually died out.
The significant thing, of course, is that Paul's work, founded on his belief in Jesus's teachings, radically altered the view that Jews were the "chosen people" and brought out the belief in one and only one God, who was the God of the whole world and all people. No matter how you try to reconcile this with the Old Testament, the simple fact remains that the old Yahweh of the OT was NOT the same God that Paul believed in or preached about. Yahweh was a god that belonged to one group of people and belonged very much in physical time and space. Paul's God was far beyond that tribal, nationalistic god.
The concept of deities that are essentially human in nature, but bigger and supernaturally powerful, dates way back before Judaism. Many ancient religions were pantheistic - a belief that many gods existed. Some believed in one supreme high god that ruled over the others (a Zeus or Wotan) but not all did. Some, like Hinduism, developed the concept that their pantheon of gods actually were different aspects, or faces, of three supreme gods, and that even these three were the basic three faces of THE supreme, unknowable being.
Somewhere around the time that the Hebrews departed Egypt (however close the Biblical accounting is or is not), the belief in a particular sky/storm god named Yahweh became prevalent with the Hebrews. But the Hebrews did not believe Yahweh to be THE one and only true god. They did, in fact, believe that other gods existed (such as Baal). Yahweh may actually be rooted in an even more ancient pantheon of gods out of Sumerian or Chaldean/Babylonian belief.
In any case, what the Hebrews believed was that Yahweh was the only god that should be worshipped, and that all other gods really existed but were evil, or subordinate to Yahweh, etc. They were "henotheistic" - a sort of in-between pantheistic and monotheistic. A belief that many gods existed, but only one was right to be worshipped.
Worship of Yahweh helped motivate the Hebrews to try to reclaim lands in what is modern day Israel. It also grew into the belief that Yahweh was the same god that their claimed Canaanite ancestors (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) had worshipped. That may or may not be the case. But also, it grew into the belief that the Hebrews were Yahweh's "chosen people", and that as chosen people they were destined to be rewarded with supreme, earthly power one day. It also meant that any time the Hebrews faltered or stumbled in power, when Jerusalem was taken by a neighboring power or the Hebrews suffered terrible battle loss, they viewed that as their failure to worship Yahweh properly, and thus Yahweh was using these other nations and people to specifically punish the Hebrews. Only when they returned to covenant with Yahweh did Yahweh again bless his chosen people.
However, it is clear in the first few books of the Bible that there is a very different god involved as well. These parts of Genesis, for example, are said to be written by the "Elohist" author (as opposed to other parts written by the "Yahwist" author). This author named God as "El" or "Elohim" and in fact this word appears still in traditional Hebrew prayers. Whereas Yahweh is identifiable as a "sky/storm god", similar perhaps to Zeus or Thor and having some physical form as well as deified form, El is not so definable. El more resembles the unknowable, intangible "God" that we often think of as existing outside of our material world, who does not designate a "chosen people" but is truly the god of the whole world and all people.
Whatever these ancient beliefs really looked like, they were both blended into the books of the Torah (along with two other authors' works, but that's another discussion). However, the theology of "Jews are the chosen people" prevailed for a long time.
[But you can find books in the OT that defy even this principle. The book of Ruth, for example, demonstrates that even foreigners and strangers are to be valued, as the author ends the story by connecting Ruth, a non-Jew who marries into a Jewish household (totally scandalous in the day, worthy of death or at least banishment), to King David, the most powerful and revered king of the Jews. ]
This theology shows up throughout the Bible. When the Assyrians chose to invade Palestine, for example, and succeeded in subjugating the lands, the failure of the Hebrews to withstand this problem was written as the Hebrews losing favor in God's eyes, for turning away from their covenant with God. When the Assyrians were later defeated through Babylonian conquest, that was seen as reward for finally turning back to God and rejecting the religion of the Assyrians (thus, the Babylonians were nothing more than God's way of turning back the Assyrians for the benefit of the Jews). But then, when the Babylonians sacked Jerusalem, burned the Temple and carried off the Jewish royalty, the prophets decreed that the Babylonians were now being used to punish the Hebrews, and they invented the theory that God's punishment is visited doubly upon them for their sins, and through many generations, in order to satisfy God's wrath.
When the Persians destroyed Babylon, that too was viewed as God relenting in his punishment of the Jews. The Greeks conquered Persia, and attempted to subvert Jewish religion. The revolt led by Judas Maccabaeus was seen as successful because the Maccabeans had God on their side, as they were "righteous worshippers."
By Jesus's time, of course, the Jews had been through so much trial and tribulation that the Romans were no more than the latest and worst oppressor yet, and beliefs were strong that the Messiah must come soon to put an end to this supreme evil and finally bring the Jewish Nation into its glory and power.
Whatever Jesus actually did or said, what we are actually left with are four gospels that likely blend a good deal of real sayings and teachings, along with teachings or actions the authors wished to insert to promote belief or particular doctrines. Christianity actually represented a major shift in Judaism, when the apostle Paul took belief in Jesus=Messiah out of the realm of pure Judaism and not only preached to Gentiles (thus bringing the God of Judaism to the entire world) but also did away with the laws of Judaism to help promote Gentile conversion and prevent Gentiles from abandoning the faith. Note that without Paul, and all he said or did to remove the Judaic aspects of belief in Christ, there would be no Christianity today. It would have remained a specific sect of Judaism, and eventually died out.
The significant thing, of course, is that Paul's work, founded on his belief in Jesus's teachings, radically altered the view that Jews were the "chosen people" and brought out the belief in one and only one God, who was the God of the whole world and all people. No matter how you try to reconcile this with the Old Testament, the simple fact remains that the old Yahweh of the OT was NOT the same God that Paul believed in or preached about. Yahweh was a god that belonged to one group of people and belonged very much in physical time and space. Paul's God was far beyond that tribal, nationalistic god.
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The older I get the more I realize that I don't know how God is let alone why He is created as He is.Plecto said:
.
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Wow, moogoob hits another out of the park.moogoob said:
You might be interested to know that the Hebrew words for "I am that I am" and the Hebrew words for "It is what it is" are exactly identical.
If that isn't a hint, I don't know what could be.
There is a limit to the concept of questioning. Many philosophical questions today are actually irrational questions and can have no answer as the question itself makes no sense. ex;
"What caused the causality?"
"How long did it take to create time?"
"What came before existence?"
and the famous, "Why did existence come about?"
On the other hand, the more recently famous, "What is the purpose of life?", actually and interestingly has a real answer despite appearances. There is in fact a deducible highest purpose. But if you re going to ask who made it the highest purpose, then I would have to reply (after the very long proof that it is in fact real) simply that it is and no more can ever be deduced than that.
Man can never at any time deduce what the cause of cause was. The mind is made to track causality and predict from what it discovers.
I can tell you that the universe if made of "self-reluctance" and prove exactly how all things get created from that, from the smallest particle of matter to the greatest intelligence conceivable. I can tell you its final destination (from which that "purpose" is derived). But I can't ever tell you where that self-reluctance came from or if there is any other purpose associated (nor can anyone else at any time in the future).
Questioning and the mind has limits, I suggest you try to use what of it you have for its purpose and avoid wasting it away.
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Dear Plecto, you are right, yours is a very deep question, and I read somewhere, some Philosophers have driven themselves mad, by trying to find " Why is God, and wherefrom?" We know that God said about Himself " I AM," so we have to accept that God has always been, and always will be. God is Spirit, we know He is Holy, and He IS LOVE, not a character-trait, as we know it, but His whole being is PURE LOVE. He cannot ever be anything else, He loves, because He is LOVE, He creates, because He is LOVE, and it belongs to His whole being, He can only do, and be LOVE. Even to us, to our finite mind, we know that real Love is a very, very strong force, and imagine God, who is ALL-LOVE, He cannot ever be anything, but Love. We know that Evil exist too, but I am inclined to believe, Evil is a force which grew, and gets fed by evil-doers. Love will always be, and Evil will return to nothingness, in God`s own time. I am no Philosopher, Plecto, but to me this makes sense. I say it with humility and deep and long thought, perhaps one day we will know for sure, when we see what God has for us. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
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