Why is fornication bad?

[Lanakila]

People who have sex before marriage are more likely to be unfaithful to their future spouse. That's what the research suggests.

Like Cuba Gooding said in the movie Jerry McQuire: show me the money. I really want to see this research.

 

[JohnLocke]

I wonder what you mean by bad?

Are you talking immoral, unethical, illegal, or merely unadvised? I can see many ways in which sexual relations before marriage, particularly for the young, may be inadvisable. There are those heretics out there, like myself, who honestly believe that one leaves a bit of one's soul with whomever one has had sex with, as such limiting one's sexual relationships is merely "self preservation." It can also be that an individual who is physically capable of having sex is not mentally, emotionally, socially, and/or economically prepared for dealing with it.

The Bible clearly condemns it. It is illegal in many states (provided at least one of the individuals in questions is under the age of consent, and often times there is a hoary old law on the books concerning such activity even amongst consenting adults). Is it unethical? I surely can be, as Kant might say, using another person as a sexual object is a clear violation of the categorical imperative (where all persons must be treated as ends unto themselves and not merely means to ends).

Cheers!

 

[Steezie]

If you seriously don't understand why sex w/o marriage (committment) can be a problem for society, and should as a whole not be advocated, go watch a few Jerry Springer shows.
And yes, I understand that it's the committment, not the marriage that matters.

Jerry Springer collects losers from all walks of life and throws them on stage so they'll fight. Half of that stuff is staged anyways

 

[Diavolos]

Regarding all the Christian responses that basically say "Because God says so" - I must point out that it appears the BIBLE says so - why are you so certain that GOD necessarily says so? Many, if not all, of the things written in the Bible either aren't God's word at all or have been potentially manipulated by others. It is far more likely that prohibitions against sex were generated by early Christian founders, and not Christ or God themselves. Many liberal and skeptical Christians do not take the entirety of the Bible to be the infallible word of God, and those of us who are reasonable enough to concede - Christian or not - that the Bible contains errors, contradictions, and fabrications, and is therefore at best only partially God's word, would encourage you to consider not abstaining from fornication or anything else prohibited merely because the Bible indicates that "God says so" .Now, as far as something like murder, theft, lying for personal benefit, and so forth, it seems obvious that such behavior is unethical within the Christian framework. Good *reasons* - that is, justified reasons that point to real-world consequences and such - are necessary for an action to be considered unethical by any rational code of ethics. Christians are capable of maintaining a more rational code of ethics only when they abandon the refutable conservative position that the bible is infallible.

My contention is that "God says so" is an insufficient reason for or against any particular action, especially if one is not absolutely certain that God says so. I don't consider words in the Bible to be a source for absolute certainty about anything (much less confidence). Neither is it sufficient reason to abstain from any behavior. Rational ethics are derived from secular sources - we recognize murder, theft, and other violations against one another as "wrong" for many reasons - the Bible saying so is not one of them, or at best isn't their source or isn't the only source. People in non-Christian societies and pre-Christian societies were ethical without Christianity, and non-Christian societies will continue to contain many of what are probably essential ethics - prohibitions against murder, theft, etc. "Do not have sex unless you perform an arbitrary religious ceremony that doesn't really mean anything and which usually ends up screwing everybody over and making them unhappy and ending in divorce, emotionally displaced and distraught children, and financially injustice" isn't one of them. Marriage today is a crock, anyway, and the Bible, unchanging as it is, is useless for addressing contemporary marriage issues.

 

[elsbeth]

Jerry Springer collects losers from all walks of life and throws them on stage so they'll fight. Half of that stuff is staged anyways

My husband and I manage 50 some rentals in a small town. A LOT of our tenants (and even more of the people we turn down) could be on the show.
We get a lot of women who, at early 20s, have 2 or 3 kids, all by different fathers (different last names). You have to feel sorry for the kids. We get domestic violence calls to rentals. We get couples, unmarried, who split up and fight over who owes the rent or gets the deposit. We get the tenants with the anger management problems.
Is all of this from sex w/o committment? Of course not. But some of the problems come from that. How are those kids with several half brothers/sisters and no Dad around going to grow up? Not well.

 

[J20]

Absolutely. Anytime I ask why it has to be this way, i.e. what problem is god trying to solve, they can never come up with a real reason, just gibberish about "god's plan".

Ouch you judge us harshly, personally I would say as a christian that this is done to protect us, I know that you can take precautions against pregnancy and STDs. However, sex is one of the most intimate of actions between a man and a woman, and as such should be something really special. Sadly people do not always treat it so, as a teacher I have seen many students who have been emotionally damaged by people who they have had a sexual relationship with, only to discover that the person they had relationship didn't really love them, that it was just a bit of fun. We also live now in a society where people are increasingly judged by their attractiveness as a sexual partner and prowess in the bedroom surely this cannot be a good thing.

sorry hope I didn't spout too much 'gibberish' for you.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Ouch you judge us harshly, personally I would say as a christian that this is done to protect us, I know that you can take precautions against pregnancy and STDs.

Which highlights the fact that the bible was written in a primitive era, and has not been updated to modern times. If the men who wrote it had truly been "inspired" of a god, they could have foretold that protection would someday be available and mentioned it in their commandments. If they had said "no unmarried sex without protection from pregnancy and disease", I would have no issues with biblical morality.

However, sex is one of the most intimate of actions between a man and a woman, and as such should be something really special.

Can be. Doesn't have to be. People are different.

Sadly people do not always treat it so, as a teacher I have seen many students who have been emotionally damaged by people who they have had a sexual relationship with, only to discover that the person they had relationship didn't really love them, that it was just a bit of fun.

On the other hand, perhaps it was their own fault for wanting something out of it that the other person did not.

Many people, especially women, seem to get love and sex all mixed up. They can be related, don't have to be. If my sexual partner and I merely like each other, and want each other to feel good, that is sufficient for me.

What infuriates me are the people who have their own idea of love and sex and insist everyone else must subscribe to it. Especially when they point to the rantings of primitive men claiming to speak for a god and think that somehow gives their opinion more weight.

We also live now in a society where people are increasingly judged by their attractiveness as a sexual partner and prowess in the bedroom surely this cannot be a good thing.

This is not just a fornication issue. Marriage partners are chosen this way too.

 

[J20]

Faster jack rabbit, you sadden me, you may judge me as just another senitmental christian who gets sex and love mixed up, but I truly do believe that sex and love should go together. Failure to do this I believe and I accept this is a personal belief is to miss what sex is all about, a coming together of a man and a woman, a joining together which brings them as close to being one as possible, physically and emotionally. Sadly it does not seem to be this way for you and there also seems to be a certain hardness and callousness in the way you blame my students for wanting something that the other person didn't. I assure in probably ever case the partner assured them that they did want the same thing that 'they were the special one'.

How did you come to be so hard?

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Faster jack rabbit, you sadden me, you may judge me as just another senitmental christian who gets sex and love mixed up, but I truly do believe that sex and love should go together.

Okay, that's what you believe. Good for you. That's not what everyone believes, and it is not your right to force it on them.

Failure to do this I believe and I accept this is a personal belief is to miss what sex is all about, a coming together of a man and a woman, a joining together which brings them as close to being one as possible, physically and emotionally.

Okay, that's what you think. Now we know. By all means, do that.

Sadly it does not seem to be this way for you and there also seems to be a certain hardness and callousness in the way you blame my students for wanting something that the other person didn't. I assure in probably ever case the partner assured them that they did want the same thing that 'they were the special one'.

Then that's an issue of dishonesty, not sex. If they lied about that, they probably lied about other things too.

I can assure you that there are women who feel the way I do, and I get along with them just fine. Who are you to say that what we have is inferior to what you say you have?

How do you explain the divorce rate amongst christians?

How did you come to be so hard?

How did you come to be so mushy? Oh, right, religious indoctrination.

 

[J20]

Divorce rate amongst christians, well we are human too, we make mistakes, never met a perfect christian yet. Ok you have decided why I am so mushy, why are you so hard?

 

[Shadowsun]

It all depends on the which set of morals you use. But from my point of view nothing is bad about it as long as the age of consent is reached, consent is given and responsibility is taken (preventing disease,....). And there are a lot of people who agree with this.

And if christians have a problem with this than they should keep it to themselves because they have other beliefs. I am not going around, beating up people who won't have premarital sex.

 

[J20]

It all depends on the which set of morals you use. But from my point of view nothing is bad about it as long as the age of consent is reached, consent is given and responsibility is taken (preventing disease,....). And there are a lot of people who agree with this.

And if christians have a problem with this than they should keep it to themselves because they have other beliefs. I am not going around, beating up people who won't have premarital sex.

Hey the thread was about why it was wrong, most christians accept other people have other beliefs, but we also have the right to express an opinion or would you reserve that just for non christians?

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Divorce rate amongst christians, well we are human too, we make mistakes, never met a perfect christian yet.

Then don't go on about how your "love the same woman for 50 years" gag is superior.

Ok you have decided why I am so mushy, why are you so hard?

Because the religious indoctrination didn't take with me. I didn't fall for the gag. I don't buy into a love/sex mindset invented by ancient men sitting out in the desert trying to figure out how to increase the dollar value of their daughters. "Let's see now, if we force them to be virgins, and declare virginity to be of value, we can get more bang for our buck when we marry them off".

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Hey the thread was about why it was wrong, most christians accept other people have other beliefs,

Really? Then why do they vote for "family values" candidates so that they can force their beliefs on everyone else?

but we also have the right to express an opinion or would you reserve that just for non christians?

Opinions, fine. Legislation, no.

 

[J20]

Try loving the same woman for 50 yrs see if it superior, let me know when you have done it, I am afraid I can't comment, I have only just managed just short of ten , but if you would care to come back in just over 40 yrs I'll let you know what I think.

As for the indoctrination, I'd like to think that i have a mind which allows me to weigh my beliefs and make my own decisions, but this could of course be that I have just been so well brain washed. How do you think I could tell??

 

[J20]

Fraid I can't really comment on the american legal system, but I suppose thats democracy. I suppose christians could say that they have plenty of legislation forced on them which they don't agree with. Certainly in the uk we have laws enacted which we dont necessarily agree with.

 

[MooCar93]

Are you talking immoral, unethical, illegal, or merely unadvised? I can see many ways in which sexual relations before marriage, particularly for the young, may be inadvisable. There are those heretics out there, like myself, who honestly believe that one leaves a bit of one's soul with whomever one has had sex with, as such limiting one's sexual relationships is merely "self preservation." It can also be that an individual who is physically capable of having sex is not mentally, emotionally, socially, and/or economically prepared for dealing with it.

I've heard that bit about "leaving a bit of yourself" with other people, etc. What people never seem to reflect on, though, is how this means that even as you're giving away that part of yourself, you're gaining something from somebody else, thereby (possibly) enabling yourself to grow.

Just trying to put a positive spin on it is all.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Try loving the same woman for 50 yrs see if it superior, let me know when you have done it, I am afraid I can't comment, I have only just managed just short of ten , but if you would care to come back in just over 40 yrs I'll let you know what I think.

If you have not determined that "one man one woman forever" is superior, why are you telling me it is?

 

[J20]

If you have not determined that "one man one woman forever" is superior, why are you telling me it is?

Personal belief, and I guess if I truly believe that, why wouldn't I tell you? After all Watson and Crick when they discovered the secret of DNA ran out into the street to find people to tell. This I believe is more important

 

[Lanakila]

Try loving the same woman for 50 yrs see if it superior, let me know when you have done it, I am afraid I can't comment, I have only just managed just short of ten , but if you would care to come back in just over 40 yrs I'll let you know what I think.

As for the indoctrination, I'd like to think that i have a mind which allows me to weigh my beliefs and make my own decisions, but this could of course be that I have just been so well brain washed. How do you think I could tell??

You don't get a brownie button for staying with the same woman for 50 years. On your anniversary you get a certificate from the President, but frankly its not worth the paper its written on. Waiting to have sex doesn't make the relationship magically better than those that don't wait. We waited and were Christians and had a ton of problems we would never tell anyone about because we were in the ministry, and the minister is supposed to be the example ect.

You can love each other, pray together, wait for sex and only have sex with each other, not watch porn ect, and still end up getting divorced. Because my ex and I stayed together for 17 years (almost 18) out of shear determination but weren't happy and weren't a very good match from the beginning. So we divorced and are both much happier.