Why is finding someone so hard?

[MacFall]

it seems you put the woman you are approaching on a pedistool and you don't even know her, so yes" her loss" unless you know her to be a mother Teressa saint like woman, she could just as easy be a nasty alcoholic degenerate

Of course I'm not doing that. I don't even become interested in a woman until I know her well enough to have an informed respect for her.

 

[mindfulness]

I can't walk away saying it's "her loss" because it isn't. I'm not God's gift to women. What, should I insinuate myself on the object of my desire as if she ought to want me when she clearly doesn't? That's exactly the sort of callousness - by which I mean, arrogance and lack of empathy - that I began to see in myself when I was listening to the "dude, just ask her and screw what she thinks" school of advice. I will never regret a life of caution if my refusal to be reckless towards other people leaves me single, just like I won't be full of regret for not driving down crowded streets at high speeds and thereby miss out on a life of high-risk joyriding. I don't just consider my own needs and wants. I consider those of the women I am interested in as well. And "just asking them" when they obviously have no interest in me can only hurt them as well as myself. Therefore I will wait for signs that they ARE interested before I try to do anything other than become friends. Caution is wisdom. If you ever regret being cautious you've got some weird priorities.

One day you might want to start considering your own needs and wants. If you don't, who will? You cannot expect someone else to do so, can you? So you owe it to yourself to start being more concerned with what YOU want.

I don't have the luxury of time to be "cautious" with women. I'd like to get married someday and that ain't gonna happen by God magically dropping Ms. right unto my front lawn, though it would be nice. And why exactly are we being "cautious" with women anyway? Are they a dangerous animal? Are they going to kill us? If not, I don't see why being "cautious" is even part of this discussion.

And since when does asking someone out "hurt them"? I think you are exaggerating the risks involved to keep yourself safe and comfortable so that you do not have to act further, causing yourself more (potentially) undue rejection. Rejection is a part of life.

And I should probably apply much of what I am saying to my own life more too, so no need to point that out to me, as I am aware of that. lol

 

[MacFall]

One day you might want to start considering your own needs and wants.

I do. But I do it in a way that is respectful of the needs and wants of others. That's how grownups operate.

And why exactly are we being "cautious" with women anyway? Are they a dangerous animal? Are they going to kill us? If not, I don't see why being "cautious" is even part of this discussion.

For the same reason that you don't drive at top speed down a street with pedestrian activity. It's not only because you are afraid that they'll fly through your windshield and hurt you. If you ever do get married, you had better be prepared to spend a LOT of time fighting with your wife, with that attitude.

And since when does asking someone out "hurt them"?

Hmm, how about... every time I've done it. I've lost no fewer than six close friendships when I revealed romantic interest that wasn't mutual, and many more casual friendships.

I think you are exaggerating the risks involved to keep yourself safe and comfortable so that you do not have to act further, causing yourself more (potentially) undue rejection.

And I think you had better stop making assumptions. You know what they say about that.

Rejection is a part of life.

Rejection is a form of death. God never intended for people to hurt one another, ever. Therefore it is a life-enabling way of living to minimize rejection. Note that I never said (despite your apparent assumptions) that I avoid it entirely - but I do not risk it when it is not necessary. Especially when the alternative is something so simple (and which I believe ought to be obvious) as just trying to see whether someone is interested BEFORE you go insinuating your desires on them.

 

[mindfulness]

I do. But I do it in a way that is respectful of the needs and wants of others. That's how grownups operate.

For the same reason that you don't drive at top speed down a street with pedestrian activity. It's not only because you are afraid that they'll fly through your windshield and hurt you. If you ever do get married, you had better be prepared to spend a LOT of time fighting with your wife, with that attitude.

Hmm, how about... every time I've done it. I've lost no fewer than six close friendships when I revealed romantic interest that wasn't mutual, and many more casual friendships.

And I think you had better stop making assumptions. You know what they say about that.

Rejection is a form of death. God never intended for people to hurt one another, ever. Therefore it is a life-enabling way of living to minimize rejection. Note that I never said (despite your apparent assumptions) that I avoid it entirely - but I do not risk it when it is not necessary. Especially when the alternative is something so simple (and which I believe ought to be obvious) as just trying to see whether someone is interested BEFORE you go insinuating your desires on them.

Yeah, because you were trying to turn FRIENDSHIPS into ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS. It doesn't work (as you should know). This is why it makes more sense to approach someone you are NOT already friends with, so you don't risk destroying an otherwise great friendship with someone who does not share your deeply rooted feelings.

Rejection is a fact of the real world, like it or don't. Either way, it's something that "grown-ups" need to learn to deal with in order to have successful relationships. Speaking of marriage, fighting with your spouse can be seen as a form of rejection too. What do you advocate, bottling up, never saying anything and letting her take advantage of you? I should hope not.

 

[Hadassah_]

Yeah, because you were trying to turn FRIENDSHIPS into ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS. It doesn't work (as you should know). This is why it makes more sense to approach someone you are NOT already friends with, so you don't risk destroying an otherwise great friendship with someone who does not share your deeply rooted feelings.

Why doesn't this work? Why can't friends express an interest in each other without ruining the friendship?

There are MANY people in this world who are married and started out as friends. MANY.

 

[Blank123]

Oh Lord.

if friendships cannot be turned into romantic relationships, then my parents should never have married. Nor should any of the other couples I know who started out as friends first and have happy marriages now.

Just because it hasn't worked for you, does not mean it cannot work at all.

 

[mindfulness]

Why doesn't this work? Why can't friends express an interest in each other without ruining the friendship?

There are MANY people in this world who are married and started out as friends. MANY.

Two words why it generally does not work out:

Unrequited. Love.

If it's mutual, that's obviously different. Guess what? It usually isn't and someone almost always gets hurt.

Way too much drama, heartache and sadness more often than not.

 

[Im_A]

Human interaction will always be complicated and a challenge. Just a fact of life.
Nothing wrong with it. Nothing convenient about it. I think accepting it without complaint is a step towards maybe finding someone and also a good step even if it is just for you.

 

[mindfulness]

Oh Lord.

if friendships cannot be turned into romantic relationships, then my parents should never have married. Nor should any of the other couples I know who started out as friends first and have happy marriages now.

Just because it hasn't worked for you, does not mean it cannot work at all.

Did they both like each other first?

 

[MacFall]

Yeah, because you were trying to turn FRIENDSHIPS into ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS. It doesn't work (as you should know). This is why it makes more sense to approach someone you are NOT already friends with, so you don't risk destroying an otherwise great friendship with someone who does not share your deeply rooted feelings.

You're missing a rather obvious third option here: don't act like a selfish jerk and impose your desires on people who have not expressed interest in you whether you are friends with them first or not.

Rejection is a fact of the real world, like it or don't.

So is disease. It happens, but there are things you can do to avoid it. And if you don't do those things, then you're just being reckless (which, by the way, is the opposite of cautious).

What do you advocate, bottling up, never saying anything and letting her take advantage of you? I should hope not.

Do you really see no third alternative to being insensitive to the wants and needs of other people, and being a doormat? That's rather creepy.

 

[mindfulness]

You're missing a rather obvious third option here: don't act like a selfish jerk and impose your desires on people who have not expressed interest in you whether you are friends with them first or not.



So is disease. It happens, but there are things you can do to avoid it. And if you don't do those things, then you're just being reckless (which, by the way, is the opposite of cautious).



Do you really see no third alternative to being insensitive to the wants and needs of other people, and being a doormat? That's rather creepy.

So how many dates and meaningful relationships has this way of doing things gotten you so far?

Because the sad truth is, if it's not working for you now, then maybe it's time to change things up. You know, Einstein, insanity, the same thing and all that. I'm sure you've heard it before.

I think throwing your "caution" to the wind when it comes to women is the best strategy. You are welcome to disagree. You are welcome to do whatever you wish, just don't expect me to follow your strategy for how to find Ms. Right because that is not going to happen.

 

[Hadassah_]

Two words why it generally does not work out:

Unrequited. Love.

If it's mutual, that's obviously different. Guess what? It usually isn't and someone almost always gets hurt.

Way too much drama, heartache and sadness more often than not.

Hogwash.

I've seen it work too many times for your fallacy to be true. Not to mention one of my best friends is someone I cared for and the feelings weren't reciprocated. How are we friends? Simple. We're ADULTS. That's how we roll.

 

[MacFall]

Why doesn't this work?

Well, it does work. The idea that it doesn't is a bald-faced lie perpetrated by the pickup artists' dating culture. I can't say that every successful marriage I know started off as a friendship, but I can say that every marriage I know that started off as a friendship has been successful. Including some that have been going on for multiple decades.

Why can't friends express an interest in each other without ruining the friendship?

That, I can't answer. But it seems to be the case. So in my recent friendships, I have decided not to express interest until I have some indication that it is mutual. And I've misinterpreted a few signals, too. But it's been a lot better for me since then overall.

 

[mindfulness]

Hogwash.

I've seen it work too many times for your fallacy to be true. Not to mention one of my best friends is someone I cared for and the feelings weren't reciprocated. How are we friends? Simple. We're ADULTS. That's how we roll.

And I've seen too many failures to say it does work. See, I can do this too?

Good for you. It's great you can be friends with someone you love that doesn't love you back. Most adults can't. So if you'd like to talk down to them, be my guest.

 

[MacFall]

How many dates and meaningful relationships has this way of doing things gotten you so far?

None. But then, neither did the cold-sell method, which I tried for a lot longer than this.

Because the sad truth is, if it's not working for you now, then maybe it's time to change things up.

Yeah, sure. Living according to my morals isn't working so I'll just dump them to get what I want. Oh my gosh, why didn't I think of that.

You know, Einstein, insanity, the same thing and all that. I'm sure you've heard it before.

Yep. Which is why I dropped the cold sell method of getting dates after a good decade of trying. And in retrospect realized that it was never very respectful of the women in whom I was interested in the first place, which means it's still FAR better to do what I'm doing now even if I never get a date in my life.

 

[MacFall]

And I've seen too many failures to say it does work. See, I can do this too?

All it takes is one exception to your generalization to prove that it is false.

 

[Blank123]

Did they both like each other first?

actually no. My dad was even engaged to another woman when they first met.

The attraction started after he broke up with his fiancee.

 

[mindfulness]

None. But then, neither did the cold-sell method, which I tried for a lot longer than this.

Yeah, sure. Living according to my morals isn't working so I'll just dump them to get what I want. Oh my gosh, why didn't I think of that.

Yep. Which is why I dropped the cold sell method of getting dates after a good decade of trying. And in retrospect realized that it was never very respectful of the women in whom I was interested in the first place, which means it's still FAR better to do what I'm doing now even if I never get a date in my life.

Then follow that dream wherever that dream may lead. I love Elvis. lol

I wish you all the best. I'd drop the word "sell" from your vocabulary with regard to women though, because if you think you're trying to "sell" anyone anything, you've totally missed the point.

Perhaps your motives weren't pure, I can't say. I know where I'm at and I'm not in it for a quick lay. I could get that, as most guys I'm sure could. I'm after a meaningful, long-lasting relationship with a great girl. That's something you can never "sell" or "buy". And it all starts with a simple hello.

 

[Hadassah_]

And I've seen too many failures to say it does work. See, I can do this too?

Good for you. It's great you can be friends with someone you love that doesn't love you back. Most adults can't. So if you'd like to talk down to them, be my guest.

With all due respect, I don't "love" someone I merely have an interest. This is not the first time this has come up in a discussion. Is it common for people to be in love with someone who doesn't love them back? Infatuation maybe...but love?

 

[mindfulness]

All it takes is one exception to your generalization to prove that it is false.

It proves nothing. The simple fact is, it usually doesn't work.

If people (especially women here) want to hold on to this ideology, that's their choice and none can fault them for it. But to announce to the world, this is how you need to do things, yeah I don't think so. If it truly worked so well, then no one here would be single.

Everyone needs to find what works best for them. If you're convinced this is your path, take it. Just don't expect everyone to follow suit with you.