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Why is evolution taught in our schools?

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Astrophile

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Really? If nothing is proven by science than why do we get sick? Germ Theory says its because of germs.

According to the Bible, God makes people ill to punish them for their sins; see Numbers 16:41-50, 2 Samuel 24:15, and 1 Chronicles 21:14. Perhaps God creates bacteria and viruses in sick people to fool us into thinking that germs cause disease, in the same way that he supposedly accelerated radioactive decay to fool us into thinking that the Earth, the Moon, Mars and meteorites are old.
 
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Ophiolite

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its very easy- we need a faith to believe that all creatures share a common descent. its not a fact. where do you see anything wrong about this statement?
That is not the statement I am expressing distaste for. My problem is with your statement that there is no evidence for evolution.

Now I appreciate that English is not your native language, so I should probably have added a 5th possibility:
5. The perpetrator does not understand what they have written and thinks the words mean something else.

There is evidence for evolution. You may not agree with the evidence. You may choose to ignore the evidence on the grounds of faith or scripture. These are acceptable options. But if you deny that there is evidence then you are either a liar, a fool, or a charlatan.
 
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xianghua

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There is evidence for evolution. You may not agree with the evidence. You may choose to ignore the evidence on the grounds of faith or scripture. These are acceptable options

ok. do you agree that if we can explain a claim about common descent by a common designer then we cant say that this claim is evidence for a common descent? take the common similarity argument: common similarity can be explain easily by a common designer rather than common descent. do you agree with this point?
 
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xianghua

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Because when I have engaged you about your claims, you have been unable to support them or even participate in rational discussion about them. Life is short and some things are not worth doing.
realy? let's check this for a momment. here is our last discussion about your evidence for evolution: Is this for real?

why you suddenly disappeared in the middle?
 
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Ophiolite

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Try repeating evolution.
I have. Twice. And so far it is working out rather well.
First my wife and I allowed random events in meisosis to generate germ plasm. We then blended this germ plasm* producing two individuals with distinct and unique genetic characteristics, some of which were novel, at least in our direct lines.

Next we exrcised a degree of control of the environment in which the children developed in order to maximise the possibility that they could continue the experiment.

I am pleased to announce that this stage of the experiment has been successful and there are now an additional three humans with unique and possibly novel genetic constitutions. It is my hope that in perhaps a 100,000 years or so one or more descendants of the ongoing experiment will have evolved into a new species, perhaps on a distant planet around Epsilon Eridani.

*Do try this at home.
 
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Ophiolite

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ok. do you agree that if we can explain a claim about common descent by a common designer then we cant say that this claim is evidence for a common descent? take the common similarity argument: common similarity can be explain easily by a common designer rather than common descent. do you agree with this point?
That is a stupid idea. Just because there is an alternative explanation for evidence does not remove the fact that it is evidence. So, no, I strongly disagree with that statement, and I doubt it makes any better sense in your native language.
 
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expos4ever

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its very easy- we need a faith to believe that all creatures share a common descent. its not a fact. where do you see anything wrong about this statement?
At best, what you are saying is true in such a restricted sense that your claim is almost meaningless. You appear to believe - or at least claim to believe - that since there is not 100% certainty that evolution happened, it is not a fact.

Well, only mathematical and logical “truths” have 100% certainty.

Evolution is certainly a “fact” in the sense that reasonable, thinking people use the term.
 
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essentialsaltes

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So why do you claim science is not proveable beyond a reasonable doubt? Some science is. In fact most of it is.

Sure. Just making it clear that there is no 'proof' in science the same way there is in mathematics of logic.
Yes, lots of scientific theories and ideas are supported by so much evidence that it is unreasonable to doubt them. Germ theory and the theory of evolution are among them.
 
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USincognito

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Really? If nothing is proven by science than why do we get sick? Germ Theory says its because of germs. This can be replicated in a laboratory therefore science has proven it. Otherwise we get sick by something else. If DNA hasn't been proven by science than there are tons of innocent rapists and murderers in prison right now. Plus a lot of people are thinking that they're the father of babies when they're not really the father. I mean they say DNA tests are 99.99% accurate that's why its admissible in a court of law. If DNA wasn't proven by science it wouldn't be. So why do you claim science is not proveable beyond a reasonable doubt? Some science is. In fact most of it is.

You're using proof in a colloquial or legal sense. Science uses a much more precise definition which means that proof is only found in math, logic and distilled alcohol. The author of this article does a much better job explaining it than I can. I'd suggest if you don't read the whole thing, that you read the first few paragraphs.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...sconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof

One of the most common misconceptions concerns the so-called “scientific proofs.” Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a scientific proof.

Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, not in science. Mathematics and logic are both closed, self-contained systems of propositions, whereas science is empirical and deals with nature as it exists. The primary criterion and standard of evaluation of scientific theory is evidence, not proof. All else equal (such as internal logical consistency and parsimony), scientists prefer theories for which there is more and better evidence to theories for which there is less and worse evidence. Proofs are not the currency of science.[/quote]​
 
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USincognito

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Why is evolution taught in our public schools?

Because it is science and the foundational concept of biology.

I mean around 18 years ago when I was in high school it was taught to me that we evolved from monkeys and it was taught to us as if it was a proven fact. Yet science has proven recently that we didn't evolve from monkeys scientists now think we evolved from something else. Well which is it?

Since I did sit in class with someone when they make claims like this I'm hesitant to suggest that their memory might be wrong or that they might have misunderstood what was presented so I'll just set the record straight.

1. It has never been taught that humans evolved directly from monkeys or from current monkeys.
2. Science didn't "prove" we didn't evolve from monkeys recently or in the past.
3. Taxonomically humans are monkeys because all hominids (great apes) are Catarrhines, a group that includes apes and Old World Monkeys and also Simiformes which includes all monkeys.

When teaching evolution why not say that nobody knows exactly where we came from and that evolution is one theory that explains the origins of life?

If human evolution were a 2 hour movie we'd be missing about 12 minutes of it due to the incompleteness of the fossil record. That said, we also have 5 hours of bonus features because of genetics. And evolution doesn't address the origin of life. Evolution only happens when you have extant life that reproduces and passes on genetic material to offspring.
 
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USincognito

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Reasonable. I'll bet there are lawyers out there who could take evolution's version of 'time and chance' and portray it as as its god of necessity. That would certainly be interesting to see.

The lawyers get eaten alive when the scientists testify. That's why science advocates won Epperson v. Arkansas, Edwards v. Aguillard and Kitzmiller v. Dover.
 
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USincognito

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See when I was in school they taught it as fact and not a theory.

There seems to be some confusion as to what these terms mean in a scientific context. That life on earth, including humans, has evolved is a fact. It is a well established fact based on numerous lines of evidence with millions of individual data points supporting it. Scientific theories are overarching explanations for bodies of related observations. In the case of the theory of evolution, it explains the diversity of life we observe now and in the fossil record.

It must be I had some atheist teachers who wanted to prove to us that there was no God.

I'm skeptical of that being the case.

Especially now when scientists don't think we evolved from apes anymore which was one of the main things I was taught in high school.

As others have noted, we're not sure where you're getting all these misconceptions, but this is another one. Humans are apes (hominids) and therefore evolved from an ape population that split into genus Pan and genus Homo.

But you would think as science continues to evolve that they scientists would come up with an alternate theory to prove that there is no God. But I guess not.

Evolution is a scientific explanation for the diversity of life we see on earth now and it the fossil record. It has nothing to do with "proving" that there is no God.
 
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USincognito

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How do you "know" humans are not a separate act of creation?
Can you prove that with repeatability in a lab?

IF you cannot repeat it, then you do not "know" it.

You believe it based on FAITH.

You seem to have a misconception about the repeatability aspect of science. It does not mean that events or processes need to be repeatable. It means that observations, results of analysis, etc. are repeatable. Geologists, for instance, don't need to induce massive volcanic eruptions to validate observations about the Deccan Traps. They also don't need to fire an asteroid into the Yucatan in over to know that an impact event played a role in the extinction of non-avian dinosaurs. Science is not limited to mixing two chemicals in beaker on a lab bench.
 
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AV1611VET

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You seem to have a misconception about the repeatability aspect of science. It does not mean that events or processes need to be repeatable. It means that observations, results of analysis, etc. are repeatable.
In other words: only on paper.
 
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DogmaHunter

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DogmaHunter

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ok. do you agree that if we can explain a claim about common descent by a common designer then we cant say that this claim is evidence for a common descent? take the common similarity argument: common similarity can be explain easily by a common designer rather than common descent. do you agree with this point?

No.

You seem to be confusing "explanation" with "bare assertion".
These are not the same thing.
 
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DogmaHunter

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In other words: only on paper.

No.

Consider this: you can't repeat 'a' fire. Since the thing that burned, already burned. it won't burn again. It's destroyed. But you CAN repeat "fire". Not 'a' fire, but just fire.

So you can't repeat an event that already happened. But you can reproduce aspects of it that are the same. You can also isolate specific factors of it and focus only on those.

Evolution is no different.
 
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Tolworth John

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That's demonstrably false.
Would you say that "spherical earth" models are demonstrably superior to "flat earth" models? I'ld certainly say so. Yet, there are still flat earthers.

So how demonstrably superior an idea is, is no guarantee that ignorant people will stop being ignorant.

[qutoe]
As for your other points, biology as a subject in school or as a research tool can be performed without any reference to evolution.

Not really, as evolution explains the biodiversity and all that.
It explains why we only find koala bears and kangaroo's in australia and nowhere else on the planet.

It explains why today we have things like brussel sprouts and broccoli.
It explains why we need new flu shots every year.

As biologists like to say: "Without evolution, nothing in biology makes any sense"


Except the opposite is true.

Take a paleontologist, to name just one example
Without evolution theory, a paleontologist has NO IDEA what to look for, nore where to dig.



psssssst: your ignorance is showing.

Do you remember the title of Darwin's book?

Was it "The origins of life"? Or was it "The origins of species"?[/QUOTE]

If nothing in biology makes sense without evolution, then teaching biology with the opposite views of evolution and creatiuon would show this and that a creationist view of biologywon't work.

The simple fact is that biologists can do there work without refernce to evolution. Biology does make sense without evolution.
 
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DogmaHunter

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No they are college educated scientists who just happen to believe in God and are trying to prove that their God created the universe. Why are their findings discredited as not science?

First of all, having a degree doesn't make you a scientist. "Scientist" is a profession. And it means to work according to the scientific method. In a nutshell, that goes like this:

- gather data
- formulate testable hypothesis to explain said data
- test hypothesis (by gathering more data, design and carry out experiments, etc)
- analyse test results and formulate conclusion
- write up a paper and submit for peer review to appropriate scientific journal
- journal reviews and either publishes, or sends it back with recomendations
- when published, other scientists read it, review it, build further on it, try to disprove it, etc
- repeat

This is not what those folks do.

I'm not aware of people seeing unicorns. But you're right people have died and seen Buddha and other Gods in heaven. I could offer an explanation but it can't all be Satan and devils did it. Because Satan and devils could just as easily impersonate Jesus and have.

And how do you know that the one you can Jesus, isn't actually Shaytan the muslim devil? Or Loki? Or Hades? Or just a figment of your imagination?

Not to exploit your condition or anything... but honestly, you should know better then anyone just how powerfully and convincingly our brain can fool us.....

Thank you for at least not laughing. I appreciate it.

I'ld never laugh with someone's health problems.

Yeah let's get back on topic. I wouldn't mind it if they presented evolution as a theory to explain the origins of life but they present it as if its solid fact.

Evolution is about the origins of biodiversity / species, not about the origins of life.

Having said that, just like with other theories, there are the facts of the thing and then there is the theory, which is the explanation of the facts.

Common descent of species, shared ancestry, is a genetic fact.
Evolution theory, is the explanation of the process that explains said fact.

How is it possible that we factually share an ancestor with cats, cows, crockodiles, etc?
Evolution theory explains how that occurs.

And it has gaping holes in it. Like I said before most of science is prove able but you cannot prove evolution. So why is it presented as if its been proven?

The fossil record has holes. Which is to be expected, considering how hard it is to create a fossil.

Don't confuse evolutionary history with evolutionary theory.
Paleontologists etc, attempt at reconstructing the past. To see how all specific lineages came to be. What species took which evolutionary path.

They do this through a combination of genetics, geographic distribution of species and the fossil record. This is quite hard, considering that 99.99% of species that have ever lived, are extinct today. Nevertheless, we have quite a good picture of the tree of life.

But sure, it has holes.

Consider this simplistic analogy....

Let's say that you traveled from north to south america. Let's say we know this to be a fact. We can prove you were in the north and then some time later, you were in the south.

Let's say we have a theory that explains how you traveled south: by car. For the sake of example, we'll just say that this theory is accepted by consensus and is supported by loads of evidence.

Now, analogous to evolutionary history, would be trying to figure out which exact roads you took to get from north to south. Which highways, etc. Records show that you got a speeding ticket on highway X. Your car shows up on a traffic cam on highway Y. Insurance records show you had a small accident on highway X. Credit card records show you spent the night in village A. Etc.

This allows us to reconstruct at least part of the route you took.
Now, in the words of AV, we can play a "connect the dots" game.
Your accident on highway X was a day before your credit card record showed you present in village A. We see on a map that the most likely route from X to A was through interstate B. Plowing through the records of interestate B, we find another record of you showing up on a traffic cam.

Etc.

All these records, are the equivalent of fossils.
It gives us snapshots of "the state" of life at those specific times.
And plenty of such "records", have been found by prediction.

Like Tiktaalik, which is basically a creature with both fish as well as tetrapod features.
Tetrapods evolved in the Devonian. At least, that's what the running theory tells us.

So paleontologists looked at a geological map and looked for locations of rock dating to the right period and where the circumstances would have been favourable in those days for fossil formation. They predicted that they should be able to find transitional fossils there of "fish tetrapods".

So they set out with a team to such a location and started digging. And lo and behold, they found exactly such a fossil.


How can this be, if evolution isn't accurate?
How do you find, of all the possible places on the planet where you could go and dig, exactly such a fossil by prediction of both location as well as feature set, of a previously unknown creature, if the theory that produced the prediction is not accurate?
 
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DogmaHunter

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If nothing in biology makes sense without evolution, then teaching biology with the opposite views of evolution and creatiuon would show this and that a creationist view of biologywon't work.

What you ask is the equivalent of presenting "opposing views" of embryology, like Stork Theory. Or presenting the "opposing view" of a spherical earth: the flat earth.

There is exactly zero reason to present any non-scientific "opposing view" to actual science, in science classes.

The simple fact is that biologists can do there work without refernce to evolution

The simply fact is, that that is not true.
Just ask @sfs , who's actually a professional biologist/geneticist.

I'm guessing he'll know better then you.

Biology does make sense without evolution.

No.
 
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