Why is evolution taught in our schools?

Heissonear · Oct 16, 2018

essentialsaltes said:
Evolutionary theory is settled science, and therefore it is taught in science class. Like Atomic Theory or the Germ Theory or the Theory of Gravitation.

You wish. My academic experience shows differently.

Many think evolution is fact. End of story.

Those are the ones who do not understand the fossil record.

Welcome to the bias bandwagon, who over promote conjecture.

essentialsaltes · Oct 16, 2018

Heissonear said:
You wish.

No, my statement was accurate. Almost to the point of blandness. Evolution is settled science.

My academic experience shows differently.

Your experience shows that evolution is not a settled question in science?

Many think evolution is fact.

Of course it is. Just like gravitation is a fact. But science classes aren't just books full of facts; we use theories to explain and understand how facts relate.

You wouldn't get very far putting a spaceship in orbit just by knowing that gravity is a fact.

Gene2memE · Oct 16, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
Why is evolution taught in our public schools?

Because it's the best scientific explanation for the history and diversity of life. No other competing scientific explanation is supported by a concordance of the evidence.

Neostarwcc said:
Should it be? Why or why not?

Yes.

Leaving evolution out of a science curriculum is like leaving grammar out of English, or fractions out of mathematics. Failing to teach evolution during biology is leaving out the fundamental underpinnings of that branch of the sciences.

If public education's intent is to provide students with an informed understanding of the world around them, then educating them about the development and history of life is fundamental to this.

Neostarwcc said:
I dont think it should be.

I think your opinion on the matter doesn't actually matter.

I think that what determines what is taught in a science classroom should be the opinions of experts in the fields of science and education.

Neostarwcc said:
I'm not saying creationism should be taught in our public schools

Good, because that would be a very, very silly thing to do.

Neostarwcc said:
even if I believe in creationism and think its a good idea in a perfect world.

Why do you "believe" in creationism. And, why in a perfect world, would teaching creationism be a good idea?

Neostarwcc said:
No Satan doesnt want creationism taught to our children so it will never be.

Interesting. When did you last communicate with Satan, and how did they tell you they didn't want creationism taught to children?

Neostarwcc said:
I'm just saying that a theory that hasn't been 100% proven shouldn't be taught in our schools as scientific fact.

So, I take it you're also against the teaching of Germ Theory, the Theory of Universal Graviation, the Oxygen Theory of Combustion and the Theory of Plate Tectonics?

Neostarwcc said:
I mean around 18 years ago when I was in high school it was taught to me that we evolved from monkeys and it was taught to us as if it was a proven fact. Yet science has proven recently that we didn't evolve from monkeys scientists now think we evolved from something else. Well which is it?

I suggest it was neither.
I suggest that your recollection of what you were taught is faulty, or that you didn't actually learn what was being taught.
I suggest that your claim that "science has proven recently that we didn't evolve from monkeys scientists now think we evolved from something else" presents such a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method, how scientific findings are presented and the basics of hominid evolution that what is actually being presents and what you actually understand and internally process are two very different things.

To paraphrase Bertrand Russel: A creationist's report of what a scientist says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.

Neostarwcc said:
If evolution is such an ironclad piece of science than why did scientists get it wrong?

Science gets stuff wrong all the time. That's why we do it.

Evolutionary biology can be compared to medicine in that while there are immense amounts of supporting evidence, there are still plenty of mistakes made and things that are still unknown. Ask yourself this: if medical science is such an ironclad piece of science, then why do doctors get it wrong?

Neostarwcc said:
When teaching evolution why not say that nobody knows exactly where we came from and that evolution is one theory that explains the origins of life?

That's exactly what they do say.

But a question here: Are you referencing human origins, or the development of life? Because those are two VERY different questions, separated by ~3.7 billion years of time.

Neostarwcc said:
I mean to an average scientist evolution has been proven and they deny that a God created the universe and to an average Christian scientist creationism has been proven and it's been proven that not only did a God create the universe but it was their God. Do you see what I'm saying?

I see what you're saying, but its wrong.

The majority of scientists, Christian or otherwise, accept the theory of evolution as the best scientific explanation for the history and diversity of life. In a 2014 survey, 98% of American Academy of Sciences members accept evolution as such. Less than 1% surveyed reported they were creationists.

A minority of Christians, and an even smaller minority of scientists who are Christian, accept one of the versions of special creation. As of 2017, less than 40% of US Christians accepted one of the variants of creationism.

Neostarwcc said:
They can't both be right on the origins of life.

Correct. So, what it the best way to determine which is correct, or the most likely?

Neostarwcc said:
Either we evolved or Christ created us.

That's a false dichotomy. Those are by far not the only options.

Neostarwcc said:
But I still argue that you cannot teach a theory as scientific fact

Evolution, as in the observed changes in life over time, is a fact. The theory of evolution is the theoretical framework that explains this facts and can be used to make useful predictions about the world.

Neostarwcc said:
and then when parts of it are proven false then say "It's still scientific fact we just got part of it wrong."

All scientific knowledge is provisional and open to revision. If you taken nothing away from this thread, please understand this point. As new and better information becomes available, previous findings can be revised, overturned or disproven, and better explanations developed.

Astrophile · Oct 16, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
Especially now when scientists don't think we evolved from apes anymore which was one of the main things I was taught in high school.

Neostarwcc said:
But you don't have to have a college education to know that it's been proven by science that humans didn't evolve from apes.

What is the evidence for your statements that 'scientists don't think any more that we evolved from apes' and that 'it's been proven by science that humans didn't evolve from apes'? As I understand it, essentially all biologists agree (and have agreed since before you were born) that we share a common ancestor with the living species of apes, and that we should call this common ancestor an ape if we could see it alive. It may have been something like Orrorin tugenensis or Sahelanthropus tchadensis.

We certainly did not evolve from any living species of ape, such as chimpanzees or gorillas, and our common ancestor with the apes probably did not resemble any of the living species of apes, but that doesn't change the fact that by biological definition it was an ape.

Ophiolite · Oct 16, 2018

expos4ever said:
This notion that evolution “has to be demonstrated in a lab or I won’t believe it” is clearly misguided. And clearly so. Thinking adults cannot possibly really believe this. No reasonable person denies, for example, that the Chicago Cubs won the 2016 World Series.

The evidence for this is overwhelming, just as is the evidence for evolution. And neither can be replicated.

No! I simply cannot accept that. I want you now, in the laboratory, with appropriate monitoring and recording, to duplicate the 2016 World Series and prove that the Chicago Cubs won. If you cannot repeat each game of the series, with the results clear for all to see, then obviously you are just a proxy for rampant, misguided Chicago Cub supporters who imagine and fantasise that their team won the series. Well, such egregious assertions do not get past me. No, Siree!

AV1611VET · Oct 16, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
Why is evolution taught in our schools?

Satan demands it.

We have a standing pseudo joke:

Jim: Where was God when Columbine was shot up?
Bob: Don't you know? God's not allowed in our schools anymore.

Colter · Oct 17, 2018

AV1611VET said:
Satan demands it.

We have a standing pseudo joke:

Jim: Where was God when Columbine was shot up?
Bob: Don't you know? God's not allowed in our schools anymore.

Where have were heard superstitious religious people use this defense against truth before?

Mattew 12:22-24

Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

"Religion has handicapped social development in many ways, but without religion there would have been no enduring morality nor ethics, no worth-while civilization. Religion enmothered much nonreligious culture: Sculpture originated in idol making, architecture in temple building, poetry in incantations, music in worship chants, drama in the acting for spirit guidance, and dancing in the seasonal worship festivals.

But while calling attention to the fact that religion was essential to the development and preservation of civilization, it should be recorded that natural religion has also done much to cripple and handicap the very civilization which it otherwise fostered and maintained. Religion has hampered industrial activities and economic development; it has been wasteful of labor and has squandered capital; it has not always been helpful to the family; it has not adequately fostered peace and good will; it has sometimes neglected education and retarded science; it has unduly impoverished life for the pretended enrichment of death. Evolutionary religion, human religion, has indeed been guilty of all these and many more mistakes, errors, and blunders; nevertheless, it did maintain cultural ethics, civilized morality, and social coherence, and made it possible for later revealed religion to compensate for these many evolutionary shortcomings." UB 1955

DogmaHunter · Oct 17, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
Why is evolution taught in our public schools?

Because it's solid established science.

Should it be?

Yes.

Why or why not?

Because schools are supposed to teach students science in science classes.
And you want the next generation to be well-informed instead of scientifically illiterate. Because the children of today are going to be the workers, employers, politicians, scientists,... of tomorrow. And the future won't look to bright for you country, if you raise a generation of scientifically illiterate folk.

I dont think it should be. I'm not saying creationism should be taught in our public schools even if I believe in creationism and think its a good idea in a perfect world. No Satan doesnt want creationism taught to our children so it will never be. I'm just saying that a theory that hasn't been 100% proven shouldn't be taught in our schools as scientific fact.

Then no scientific theory would be taught in any school. It would effectively remove all science from any and all school curriculums.

And before you know it, you'll end up in a society like depicted in the movie Idiocarcy.

See, scientific theories are never considered "100% proven", nore do scientific theories (no matter how solid and well evidenced) turn into facts or laws.

Theories explain facts and laws.
Theories are well establish bodies of knowledge that are support by the facts and which allow the development and improvement of technology.

I mean around 18 years ago when I was in high school it was taught to me that we evolved from monkeys and it was taught to us as if it was a proven fact.

Then you either had rather bad science teachers or you didn't pay much attention. Or you just don't remember, that's possible too.

Yet science has proven recently that we didn't evolve from monkeys scientists now think we evolved from something else.

That's simply not true. No matter what creationist propaganda said that you've been reading.

Well which is it? If evolution is such an ironclad piece of science than why did scientists get it wrong? When teaching evolution why not say that nobody knows exactly where we came from and that evolution is one theory that explains the origins of life?

Because in science classes, we teach the actual science - not the creationist propaganda.

I mean to an average scientist evolution has been proven and they deny that a God created the universe and to an average Christian scientist creationism has been proven and it's been proven that not only did a God create the universe but it was their God.

You can read in my signature what the devout christian and scientist Francis Collins has to say about Evolution Theory.

Do you see what I'm saying?

I see what you are saying. You're a classic victim of christian fundamentalist anti-science propaganda.

They can't both be right on the origins of life.

Evolution doesn't address the origins of life.
That's your second hint that you have been fooled / lied to by propaganda.

Either we evolved or Christ created us.

1. False dichotomy.
2. All the evidence, bar none, suggests we (and all other species) evolved.

But I still argue that you cannot teach a theory as scientific fact

There, I agree, but probably for vastly different reasons as you.
See, I actually understand scientific jargon. I actually understand the difference between facts and scientific theories.

Facts are just pieces of data.
Theories are testable explanations of that data.
Facts were never theories and theories never become facts.
They are different things.

One is data. The other is explanation.

and then when parts of it are proven false then say "It's still scientific fact we just got part of it wrong."

Did you read that in creationist propaganda also?[/quote]

EDIT: fixed quoting

DogmaHunter · Oct 17, 2018

Tolworth John said:
Evolution gives atheist a reason not to believe in God.

A billion catholics, disagree.

Even if evolution was shown 110% to be false schools and society would not look at Christianity.

That is correct.
The reason however, is not "antichristianity" conspiracy theories.
The reason is because science class teaches science and religion is not science.

It is an excuse not to believe in God.

A billion catholics disagree.
Many, many, theistic biologists (and scientists of all flavours) disagree.

But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your preachy propaganda.

DogmaHunter · Oct 17, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
If we evolved from nothing than what's the purpose of life? There's no reason for us to even be here. Kind of depressing don't you think?

You not liking the facts, doesn't make the facts go away.

If I'm diagnosed with cancer, I'ld find that depressing as well. But believing that I don't have cancer just so I could feel better, won't make my cancer go away.

Facts are facts, wheter you find them comforting or not.

DogmaHunter · Oct 17, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
Like I said, I wouldn't have a problem with them teaching Evolution in schools if they taught it as a theory as to the origins of life and not as scientific fact.

I'ld have a problem with that, because evolution theory is not about the origins of life. It's about the origins of biodiversity.

The mistakes you make are really.... extremely basic.
All this tells me that you really have no clue what you are talking about.
This is not an insult. Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of. You're in luck also, since ignorance is easily cured. All it takes is reading up a bit.

I suggest you go get yourself a nice book on the basics of evolution and inform yourself on the subject.

DogmaHunter · Oct 17, 2018

Dave-W said:
How do you "know" humans are not a separate act of creation?
Can you prove that with repeatability in a lab?

How do you know that the universe and everything it contains, including your memories of having lived your entire life, was NOT created just 5 seconds ago?

The answer is that you don't and that the question is useless. You're essentially asking to prove a negative.

DogmaHunter · Oct 17, 2018

Heissonear said:
Many think evolution is fact.

Well, it is.....

There's the facts of evolution. And then there's the theory of evolution that explains the facts.

Just like there's the fact of gravity and then the theory of gravity which explains the fact.

Common ancestry of species is a genetic fact.
The theory of evolution explains the process by how all species evolved from a factual common ancestor.

DogmaHunter · Oct 17, 2018

Dave-W said:
IF you cannot repeat it, then you do not "know" it.

There goes any hopes at all for getting anyone, ever, convicted for any crime. For solving any murder case. After all, can you repeat a murder?

You believe it based on FAITH.

And "faith" is bad, I bet?

Also, it's called "evidence". Independently verifiable evidence.

DogmaHunter · Oct 17, 2018

Dave-W said:
Actually that would have been Himmler and Eichmann.

Hitler (may his name be blotted out) set the direction, but they masterminded the HOW. He wanted it done. They devised the means to actually do it.

How do you know? Can you "repeat" it?

Dave-W · Oct 17, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
And "faith" is bad, I bet?

No - faith is fine. But it should be seen for what it is.

Dave-W · Oct 17, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
How do you know? Can you "repeat" it?

No. And may it never be repeated.

It is a theory based on their writings and that of other historians of the day - direct observers.

DogmaHunter · Oct 17, 2018

mark kennedy said:
its not taught because its religious, religion shouldnt be ridiculed either. Its kind of hard to teach biology without discussing adaptive evolution, just leave the controversy regarding creationism and darwinism extraciricular and I have no issues.

There is no such "controversy", except in the minds of certain fundamentalist religious circles.

So leave it alone and stick to the particulars of biology and genetics, that should suffice.

The particulars of biology and genetics, are explained through evolution theory.

DogmaHunter · Oct 17, 2018

JackRT said:
I know you know I know.

hahaha.
Awesome episode.

DogmaHunter · Oct 17, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
Actually, no. I believe in young earth creationism because that's what the bible says happened not to mention all of the evidence out there for creationism.

What evidence?
See, considering how demonstrably ill-informed you are about science in general, and biology in particular, and considering how you have clearly been lied to and/or conned by creationist propaganda, chances are rather enormour that you are incorrect about this supposed "evidence for creationism" as well...

But when the very word of God says that the heavens and the Earth were created in six literal days some 6,000 someodd years ago than that's what I'll believe.

To be fair, the bible doesn't actually say that.
Some dude named Ussher said that in the 1600s somewhere.

We're all going to find out when we die what is truth and what isnt because its going to be one of the first questions I'll ask God when I die. Sadly those who reject Jesus will discover the truth the hard way. But this isn't a thread for that.

Haaaaaa, here we go....
The "when we're dead" card, coupled with another nasty threat at the address of the unbelievers...

And we're only on page 4 of the thread.
That sure didn't take long.

Why is evolution taught in our schools?

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