Why is Christianity even labelled as a religion?

[Open Heart]

Shalom! I'm glad you wrote back. I read your post to someone else, and it appears you are living in a hostile secular materialistic culture. I'm very sorry. It's something we Christians in the States have been fighting very hard to prevent here -- we call it the "culture wars." My advice for you is not to try and fit in, but be who you are, which is a Christian, and let the chips fall where they may. Ultimately it is they who are ignorant and lacking, they who are worthy of our sympathy and love.

While I agree in principle; it is clear that the religious Church desires no such thing. I have tried for many years to be part of the body of the Church in day to day life and have tried to bring the Church into mine. But because of my work regime and how that affects the rest of my life, I fail to meet the narrow religious weekend and evening demands and so am largely ostracized from the Body.
While the Church is my family, and I hold it to this in the name of Christ Jesus, it clearly has no life beyond it's religious services as is evidenced by it's complete absence (in the places I live) in the day to day world beyond organised religious meetings and the like.
In my experience the family of the Church is the very most difficult and distant part of my life and I have all but given up trying to get involved because clearly they are not my friends.
A proverb that was given to me the other day sums it up:
When disaster strikes, you don't ask your brother for assistance. It's better to go to a neighbor than to a brother who lives far away.

Wow, i'm so very sorry. It sounds like you are the survivor of some betrayals.

My local church has its plusses and minuses as far as ease in relating to it as a body. In part, I have gone out of my way to make it part of my week. I volunteer several ours a week at the church office, and I teach ninth grade catechism (I love it!). I used to sing in the choir, but now reserve my singing for when I attend synagogue (I'm a Messianic Jewish Catholic, so I sometimes go to synagogue on Sabbath as well as attend church every Sunday.)

But I also have to say that my parish has been good to me. I have lived on disability and there have been days I've only had food because of the Food Pantry. And when I wanted to do an internship in order to get off of disability, the parish gave me $400 towards a used car--it made the difference in being able to afford one.

The down side is that my parish is humongous -- 4000 families, which mean hundreds at each Mass. I literally sit next to a different person every time I go to worship. Basically, I don't make Christian friends by going to church. It's a big bummer.

Profession of the truth is not a religious practice

Profession of RELIGIOUS truths ARE a religious practice. The resurrection cannot be proved with scientific method, or historically documented (it is written in historical documents, but it is not clear if the accounts are literal or legends). IOW the resurrection is an item of FAITH, and so professing it is a religious activity.

The secular people around me are better at this than us Christians and are not religious, and do not see Loving thier neighbor as a religious practice, rather it is just what we do.

If you think that the secular folks around you are better than Christians or Jews or whatever at loving their neighbors as themselves, then you have been unduly influenced by the lies secular culture tells about the religious. You have bought into the bias of the culture around you. It's not that Christians aren't sinful. And some Christians are in fact more sinful than most non-Christians (maybe you've even run into few). But you can't generalize from those few. Secular culture is overly individualistic, it is narcissistic--far too narcissistic to play the trump card on loving your neighbor as yourself.

Let me give you a for instance. Judeo-Christianity teaches that sex is to be reserved for within male/female marriage. This is the ideal situation for children, and because it is ideal for children, it is ideal for society. In all other societies, you could have sex freely. When God gave the commandments to Israel, he was basically saying, "Don't be like everyone else. They have sex with their brothers and sisters, with their moms and dads, with animals, men with men, basically with whomever or whatever thy darn well please. DON'T DO THAT. Just get married and have sex and be blessed with children."

Do you know who it is not ideal for? The individuals who fall in love and want to have sex. Secular society values the individual at the expense of everyone else. Society can go to hell in a handbasket while they protect the freedom of the individual. For example, we know for a fact that the #1 biggest factor associated with childhood poverty is the absence of a father in the home. But we've nevertheless removed the stigma of sex outside of marriage/being a single mom. Forget that it hurts the kids. Forget that ultimately society pays the $$$. It's more important that men and women get their jollies on whenever they feel like it.

Communicating with, pleasing, considering what they have to say, recognising the influence of our Loved ones is not exclusively religious and is something we do for everybody around us.

Like I said. Secularism is built on a culture of narcissism. It's so strong that it's even seeping into the church. We certainly have very selfish Christians that put their own sexual interests first.

But when they do so, they aren't following their religion, are they? You can't blame Christianity when Christians don't follow it's rules.

My Mother has written me emails that contain some good advice

But you wouldn't call your mother's emails "sacred texts" right?

I honour her as befits who she is as my Mother. I seek to honour my Father as befits His status as my Loving Creator. It is only the level of honour due that differs, not the religion.

Honour is not worship. I honor my father and mother. I honor my Kung Fu instructor. I definitely honor the virgin Mary. But I don't worship any of them. I only worship God. Probably because I only think that God is God.

Baptism is about the closest I wish to get in recognition and fulfillment of my need for some sort of "religious ritual need" in mankind.
On the other hand, do we call the signing of adoption papers a religious ritual? A similar transaction is taking place at Baptism, and a Wedding for that matter and that transaction is not religious in nature rather it is real and relational.
The practice of Communion in the religious Church is usually a travesty of what Christ Jesus initiated at Passover, and what the early Church participated in. Rather than being a Love feast the bonds the Church in community, is an alienating private experience in a crowded room.

Oh, I am so sorry that you have such a lonely experience with Communion. I'm not sure why that happens for you. It's not supposed to be that way. It certainly doesn't have to be a Seder meal or a love feast in order for communion to be communal. I feel very much part of the church around me, especially during the Our Father and the Sign of Peace, when we have the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

It is interesting that you brought Weddings up as a possible religious rite. It is not often that Protestants do that. As a Catholic , of course I think of Holy Matrimony as one of the seven sacraments. But not all marriages are valid. Do you really imagine if a couple goes through a marriage drive through in Las Vegas where they are married by Elvis that they have any of the sobriety (literal or figurative) or understanding of marriage necessary for them to enter into a covenant?

So as far as my relationship with God and adopted Father, the only difference I see occurs because of who He is and how He is forced to communicate with me because of who I am in this sinful world.
Not because His Love for us suddenly becomes lowered to the equivalent to all of the spiritual religous mumbo jumbo of the world because He also happens to be the Almighty.

Which, my friend, brings us right back to the beginning of our discussion. If God created the religion, whether it was that of Israel or that of the Church, how can it be described as mumbo jumbo?

Looking forward to your reply.

OH

 

[Open Heart]

Yes, the communion/Eucharist/Lord's table is one of the biggest travesties ever visited on the church.

What do you mean? That we shouldn't have communion? What about the Messiah's words, "Do this in remembrance of me."

 

[Episaw]

What do you mean? That we shouldn't have communion? What about the Messiah's words, "Do this in remembrance of me."

Thankyou for asking. When Jesus said that they were having a Passover meal, not communion. Throughout scripture, a communion meal was always in the context of a meal shared together. Not a sip of wine and a piece of bread.

if you wanted someone to have a meal with you, you would extend an invitation to break bread with you and bread would be part of the meal, not the main part.

And when Jesus said do this, In the Greek he meant do this once, not keep doing it.

 

[Open Heart]

Thankyou for asking. When Jesus said that they were having a Passover meal, not communion. Throughout scripture, a communion meal was always in the context of a meal shared together. Not a sip of wine and a piece of bread.

if you wanted someone to have a meal with you, you would extend an invitation to break bread with you and bread would be part of the meal, not the main part.

And when Jesus said do this, In the Greek he meant do this once, not keep doing it.

Jesus was having a Seder meal, yes. BUT then he did something new, which was not done at Seder meals.

This something else became the foundational liturgy for new believers when they came together to break bread. 1 Cor 11. IOW what had been one ritualized meal became another ritual entirely.

At first the second was what scholars call a love feast. However, there was so much abuse (gluttony, drunkenness, some eating it all and leaving none for others) that the Church narrowed it to just the nitty gritty -- the bread and wine.

I think it all has its place.

If I'm going to celebrate Passover, I have a Seder meal on Passover.
If I want a love feast, I go to a church pot luck.
If I want communion, I attend Mass.
Life is simple and good, praise the Lord!

 

[Gell]

very selfish Christians that put their own sexual interests first.

This makes me remember what Jesus said, 'they honour me with me with their lips but their hearts are from me', then 'Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral etc will inherit the kingdom of God', emphasis on sexual sin.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"Why is Christianity even labelled as a religion?"

You answered your own question in the OP:

Religion is something man-made.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="frater_domus, post: 72493281, member: 406771"]Fair enough. I suppose the word religion has been defiled by the world and thus most of us associate it with something man-made. It may be more prudent to call Christianity the sole God-made religion and the rest being man-made?
Still, it feels a bit dirty to call something this personal instiutionalized. Even the actions describing pure and undefiled religion are actions of the heart, not routine visits to a church.
So maybe it would be better to criticise the institutional aspect of it we have today?[/QUOTE
--------------------------------------------------
Don't criticise it. Recognize it - that is the form of religion denying the power.

 

[Anguspure]

Shalom! I'm glad you wrote back. I read your post to someone else, and it appears you are living in a hostile secular materialistic culture. I'm very sorry. It's something we Christians in the States have been fighting very hard to prevent here -- we call it the "culture wars." My advice for you is not to try and fit in, but be who you are, which is a Christian, and let the chips fall where they may. Ultimately it is they who are ignorant and lacking, they who are worthy of our sympathy and love.

The society I live in is perhaps in darkness but we are called to be a light in the darkness, not a light in a room full of lights once a week. Part of the problem I have faced with the religous is that I have been acting as a light in the darkness and so get judged according to where I am in the darkness.

Wow, i'm so very sorry. It sounds like you are the survivor of some betrayals.

A typical response from Christians I have known that usually leads to some form of "get over it" discussion that fails to recognise the truth about what Christian people very often do to one another.

Basically, I don't make Christian friends by going to church. It's a big bummer.

I have heard this before, from people trying to tell me the importance of fellowship with the body. So if being a part of the body does not make us a part of a Loving family in Christ then what use is it?
Oh....I know it makes us part of a religion. Better off going down to the pub methinks. I met a man in the pub the other day who was flirting with my wife. I challenged him and we had an unpleasant discussion. I encountered this man in the mall a couple of days ago and he recognised me and greeted me with respect. On the other hand a I challenged a Christian friend of mine with some vague truths about the way I see the Church the other day and he won't even reply to an email from me. Why can't Christian people even come up to the level of a drunk man in a pub? (Please don't tell me that this is an isolated incedent, I have been a believer for over 30 years now and I only use this example because it is the most recent, I have forgiven and forgotten many others, and will also forgive this one).

Profession of RELIGIOUS truths ARE a religious practice. The resurrection cannot be proved with scientific method, or historically documented (it is written in historical documents, but it is not clear if the accounts are literal or legends). IOW the resurrection is an item of FAITH, and so professing it is a religious activity.

The scientific method is not how I learn to trust soemone. If I tell you that my wife is faithfull (and being at sea for 6 months a year I have no real way of knowing whether she is or not) I can assure you I am not speaking from the scientific method. Rather I am speaking from a position of trust in the person that I know. Professing trust in a person, irrspective of their status, is a relational activity that has no need of religion.

If you think that the secular folks around you are better than Christians or Jews or whatever at loving their neighbors as themselves, then you have been unduly influenced by the lies secular culture tells about the religious. You have bought into the bias of the culture around you. It's not that Christians aren't sinful. And some Christians are in fact more sinful than most non-Christians (maybe you've even run into few). But you can't generalize from those few. Secular culture is overly individualistic, it is narcissistic--far too narcissistic to play the trump card on loving your neighbor as yourself.

It is my experience that tells me this. The Godless ones I have as neighbors (one even came over to apologise for yelling in her house the other day) are all regularly and consistantly looking after the best interests of thier neighbours whether that is simply by being considerate and peaceful or by helping them out in a time of need. Whereas the Christian people I know maintain distance (can't even be bothered replying to txts or emails), have all sorts of issues related to emotional disfunction/relational problems and are never there when they are needed. If Love is about laying down ones life for another then the secular people in my town win hands down.

Let me give you a for instance. Judeo-Christianity teaches that sex is to be reserved for within male/female marriage. This is the ideal situation for children, and because it is ideal for children, it is ideal for society. In all other societies, you could have sex freely. When God gave the commandments to Israel, he was basically saying, "Don't be like everyone else. They have sex with their brothers and sisters, with their moms and dads, with animals, men with men, basically with whomever or whatever thy darn well please. DON'T DO THAT. Just get married and have sex and be blessed with children."

Actually the secular people I know, once they have been appraised of the issues surrounding improper sex and broken reltaionships are very quick to bring thier lives into repentance. This includes many of the depraved seafarers I live with.

Do you know who it is not ideal for? The individuals who fall in love and want to have sex. Secular society values the individual at the expense of everyone else. Society can go to hell in a handbasket while they protect the freedom of the individual. For example, we know for a fact that the #1 biggest factor associated with childhood poverty is the absence of a father in the home. But we've nevertheless removed the stigma of sex outside of marriage/being a single mom. Forget that it hurts the kids. Forget that ultimately society pays the $$$. It's more important that men and women get their jollies on whenever they feel like it.

This may be the message of the media, but the secular humanists who I encounter agree entirely with the idea of stable and Loving family. They are simply resistant to the idea of an abusive and Loveless religion telling them so.

Like I said. Secularism is built on a culture of narcissism. It's so strong that it's even seeping into the church. We certainly have very selfish Christians that put their own sexual interests first.

Frankly, I have never met them but perhaps I might have been able to be married to a Christian woman if I had. The ones I have met have fled like chickens in the barn yard as this seafarer who needed to make close marital relations as quickly as possible (because in a few weeks I'm off to sea again) came on the scene. As it is the only woman I have ever encountered for marriage and that was able to Love me was not a Christian and remains very sceptical.

But when they do so, they aren't following their religion, are they? You can't blame Christianity when Christians don't follow it's rules.

The religious system has failed, certainly it is at fault. Relationship with Christ Jesus and following Him never fails.

But you wouldn't call your mother's emails "sacred texts" right?

Certainly they are set apart from other emails I recieve. The term "sacred" would be a religious term that religious people use for stuff that comes from my Dad. To me they are very special and set apart from all other texts. But this because of who they are from not because I revere any religous hoohaa.

Honour is not worship. I honor my father and mother. I honor my Kung Fu instructor. I definitely honor the virgin Mary. But I don't worship any of them. I only worship God. Probably because I only think that God is God.

So in the marriage vows "with my body I thee worship" who is being worshipped?

Oh, I am so sorry that you have such a lonely experience with Communion. I'm not sure why that happens for you. It's not supposed to be that way. It certainly doesn't have to be a Seder meal or a love feast in order for communion to be communal. I feel very much part of the church around me, especially during the Our Father and the Sign of Peace, when we have the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Sitting in a room full of people not communing with them, supposed to be meditating on the meaning of the eucharist, a sip of juice from a shot glass, a crumb of bread, not looking at the people backs turned to me in pews? I have felt this sort of loneliness many times in other places and that point it is time to leave....

It is interesting that you brought Weddings up as a possible religious rite. It is not often that Protestants do that. As a Catholic , of course I think of Holy Matrimony as one of the seven sacraments. But not all marriages are valid. Do you really imagine if a couple goes through a marriage drive through in Las Vegas where they are married by Elvis that they have any of the sobriety (literal or figurative) or understanding of marriage necessary for them to enter into a covenant?

I think the only marriage that is valid is the one in which the 2 truly become one, irrespective of religious ceremony or approval. I have recently come to an understanding of the findings of modern nueroscience that shows that at a brain and mind level the relationship between a man and a woman in matrimony become one, and this is created and ordained by our Father. No religion involved, although religious sheres are really the only ones who currently recognise it.

Which, my friend, brings us right back to the beginning of our discussion. If God created the religion, whether it was that of Israel or that of the Church, how can it be described as mumbo jumbo?

At least 99.9% of all religion on this planet does not concern the Almighty God our Creator who sent His Son to die for us so that we could live.
So why bring the our beautiful relationship with God into disrepute, giving it the same status as all of the other evil crap?
If there are certain areas of His relationship with us that address mans need for religious practice then that is no reason for us to degrade His Name by using a word that stands for so much evil.
Shalom shabat in Him

 

[Episaw]

Jesus was having a Seder meal, yes. BUT then he did something new, which was not done at Seder meals.

This something else became the foundational liturgy for new believers when they came together to break bread. 1 Cor 11. IOW what had been one ritualized meal became another ritual entirely.

At first the second was what scholars call a love feast. However, there was so much abuse (gluttony, drunkenness, some eating it all and leaving none for others) that the Church narrowed it to just the nitty gritty -- the bread and wine.

I think it all has its place.

If I'm going to celebrate Passover, I have a Seder meal on Passover.
If I want a love feast, I go to a church pot luck.
If I want communion, I attend Mass.
Life is simple and good, praise the Lord!

Having made a study of this subject up hill and down dale, I don't find anywhere in scripture where the New Testament Church turned it into the ritual that we have today. That being the case, I find it difficult to give it any credence because it seems nothing more than another aspect the church created for its own ends.

 

[listed]

Christianity may well be a religion but a relationship with our Creator through His Son and by His Spirit is not even in the same category as religion.
One can be in close Loving relationship with the Creator and have no part with the religion.
Whereas a person who is fully religious (in the best"Christian" sense of the word) might never have accepted Him as his Saviour.

This kind of rings true.

 

[Open Heart]

Having made a study of this subject up hill and down dale, I don't find anywhere in scripture where the New Testament Church turned it into the ritual that we have today. That being the case, I find it difficult to give it any credence because it seems nothing more than another aspect the church created for its own ends.

Read 1 Corinthians 11:23-26. You will see how Paul, from his communication with Christ, established the Liturgy of communion.

 

[Knee V]

As to the OP:
My response is similar to C.S. Lewis' treatment of the various stories in Scripture being called "myth". His response was, "Yes, they're myth, but they're true myth." In that same vein, Christianity is certainly a religion, but it is true religion.

 

[Open Heart]

The society I live in is perhaps in darkness but we are called to be a light in the darkness, not a light in a room full of lights once a week. Part of the problem I have faced with the religous is that I have been acting as a light in the darkness and so get judged according to where I am in the darkness.

Hello again my friend!

Forgive me for being a little dense here, but I couldn't figure out what you meant by this.

A typical response from Christians I have known that usually leads to some form of "get over it" discussion that fails to recognise the truth about what Christian people very often do to one another.

My typical take is that Christians are human beings and not angels. We are petty, shallow, selfish, sinners like everyone else. The difference is that 1. we have asked to be forgiven and 2. God offers us the grace to grow into better human beings should we avail ourselves of it.

I'm never surprised to hear of scandals in the church, whether are tiny little betrayals of trust by someone a person thought was a friend to the gigantic scandals such as the pedophile fiasco. Why? Because we are sinners. The church is a hospital for sinners not a museum for perfect people.

My life has been filled with pain. I wish people had cared for what I went through. And so that is what I offer others -- a caring heart. Usually the only thing I can do is care. Sometimes they want advice and I offer such as I can give.

In the end, there is no conflict in caring for you with love and also noting that really all we can do is move on with life. We of course try to address problems as best we can. That is the healthy mature thing to do. And what do we do when we've done all we can, and it is no good? We give it to the Lord. And when we give it to the Lord but it still hurts us? We can seek counseling to see if there are complicating issues making it difficult to let go of, or to see if there are things we are still holding on to that we may need help in dealing with. Sometimes real life is a lot messier and more confusing than we like to admit. But after ALL that... in the end, we still have to get up in the morning, drink our coffee, eat our breakfast, brush our teeth, and go to work. Hanging on to resentments only hurts our own selves, it's true. When we are ready to stop hurting, we will let go of it, with God's help. But not before. And it is very insensitive of people to assume we can just simply let go of betrayal like that.

I have heard this before, from people trying to tell me the importance of fellowship with the body. So if being a part of the body does not make us a part of a Loving family in Christ then what use is it?

Whoa, hang on there buckaroo! The way you worded it makes it sound like you should only be involved in church if you are personally getting something out of it. Is that true? I kind of need to know because how I respond depends on where you are coming from.

The scientific method is not how I learn to trust soemone. If I tell you that my wife is faithfull (and being at sea for 6 months a year I have no real way of knowing whether she is or not) I can assure you I am not speaking from the scientific method. Rather I am speaking from a position of trust in the person that I know. Professing trust in a person, irrspective of their status, is a relational activity that has no need of religion.

We aren't talkinng about professing your trust in God. We are talkinng about making FACTUAL CLAIMS about him. That there is One God That he created the universe. That Jesus was born of a virgin. That he died for our sins. that he bodily rose from the dead. That he will return again some day. That if we repent and are baptized, God will forgive us our sins and fill us with the holy spirit. THOSE are called religious truth claims.

It is my experience that tells me this. The Godless ones I have as neighbors (one even came over to apologise for yelling in her house the other day) are all regularly and consistantly looking after the best interests of thier neighbours whether that is simply by being considerate and peaceful or by helping them out in a time of need. Whereas the Christian people I know maintain distance (can't even be bothered replying to txts or emails), have all sorts of issues related to emotional disfunction/relational problems and are never there when they are needed. If Love is about laying down ones life for another then the secular people in my town win hands down.

It sounds to me like you have ratty Christian acquaintances and radically need to find a way different church.

In my experience, people in general tend to be very loving towards their family and their close friends, and polite in general. But they do not show love to those outside their circle if it involves personal sacrifice. And I mean both religious and secular alike.

Actually the secular people I know, once they have been appraised of the issues surrounding improper sex and broken reltaionships are very quick to bring thier lives into repentance. This includes many of the depraved seafarers I live with.

This may be the message of the media, but the secular humanists who I encounter agree entirely with the idea of stable and Loving family. They are simply resistant to the idea of an abusive and Loveless religion telling them so.

If you are telling me you live somewhere where secular humanists are against sex outside of marriage please tell me where that is.

The religious system has failed, certainly it is at fault. Relationship with Christ Jesus and following Him never fails.

You need to hold people accountable for their own choices. If a religion says not to steal, and someone in that religion steals and ends up in jail, you can't blame the religion for the fact that they ended up jail. The blame rests squarely on their own shoulders.

Certainly they are set apart from other emails I recieve. The term "sacred" would be a religious term that religious people use for stuff that comes from my Dad. To me they are very special and set apart from all other texts. But this because of who they are from not because I revere any religous hoohaa.

I love my mother beyond words. I honor everything she says to me. If she says something to me and i disagree, I remain silent out of respect.

That's NOTHING like a sacred text. There is NO disagreeing with the faith or moral tenets of the Bible.

So in the marriage vows "with my body I thee worship" who is being worshipped?

Ahhh, so sweet. I'm such a sucker for romance. You'd never guess that I'm single and celibate LOL. This kind of flowery love language is figurative. It is called hyperbole, which means to exaggerate in order to make a point (in this case how much the person is loved). You don't really think your lover is a deity and you aren't really worshiping them. But it sure is a delicious thing to say.

Sitting in a room full of people not communing with them, supposed to be meditating on the meaning of the eucharist, a sip of juice from a shot glass, a crumb of bread, not looking at the people backs turned to me in pews? I have felt this sort of loneliness many times in other places and that point it is time to leave....

So, not to be a jerk, but I still don't understand why you feel you aren't communing.

I have problems with crowds. I'm an arch-introvert, so I'm most at home with one on ones or very small groups. Put me at a party, and I have no idea what to do. I feel loneliest in crowds.

But the liturgy of the Eucharist helps me deal with this. Even though I'm always standing next to strangers, we sing the same hymns, pray the same prayers, say the same common confession, sing the same parts of Mass... We hold hands for the Our Father, and give them a squeeze just before last part. We shake hands hands and wish each other "Peace be with you." We stand together. We kneel together. I guess what I'm saying is that with Liturgy I'm not there as one person alone but I'm part of a great whole functioning together as a community.

Perhaps a church like that might help you? Not being pushy...just a gentle suggestion.

At least 99.9% of all religion on this planet does not concern the Almighty God our Creator who sent His Son to die for us so that we could live.

You are avoiding my point. Let's start with the beginning: Mt. Sinai. Do you agree that God established a religion for Israel, complete with 613 commandments, a Tabernacle, a priesthood, a sacrificial system, and holy days?

I'm not trying to be mean or rough on you. But I just think you are avoiding the obvious, and that the loving thing is to help you face reality -- this would enable you to be a healthier and happier individual.

 

[Open Heart]

"Why is Christianity even labelled as a religion?"

You answered your own question in the OP:

So your claim is that Christianity is manmade rather than established by Christ? How do you reconcile that with being an Anabaptist?

 

[HypnoToad]

If the statement is viewed from the standpoint of the biblical definition, then yes, it is wrong.

Could you point out the Biblical definition you are using?

 

[Micah888]

When people, ask me whether I am religious, I am always inclinded to say no and I feel really uncomfortable saying things like “I converted the Christianity”.

Rather than try and clarify the matter, you could just say "I was religious, but now I have a personal relationship with Christ, which is far better".

 

[Anguspure]

Hello again my friend!

Forgive me for being a little dense here, but I couldn't figure out what you meant by this.

A couple of angles:

I live and work at sea and so am unable to attend religious services at times and places that are dictated by religious Christianity thus the Church does not make itself available in any meaningful way to seafarers.

I spent years working with a guy who because of a number of issues was unable to be part of Church community. Imagine my horror to observe that throughout the region I spend my time off in (where my family lives), I was tarred with the same brush as some sort of lackey to this man and so intead of being supported and encouraged in the ministry that God gave me, I was ignored and shunned. Indeed this is precisely what Christ Jesus also experienced from the religious people when He moved in the darkness of His society rather than hanging around in the relative light of the good religious people.

My typical take is that Christians are human beings and not angels. We are petty, shallow, selfish, sinners like everyone else. The difference is that 1. we have asked to be forgiven and 2. God offers us the grace to grow into better human beings should we avail ourselves of it.

Why then, since they do not have either advantage, do the Godless seafarers and Secular humanists find it easier to Love thier neighbour?

I'm never surprised to hear of scandals in the church, whether are tiny little betrayals of trust by someone a person thought was a friend to the gigantic scandals such as the pedophile fiasco. Why? Because we are sinners. The church is a hospital for sinners not a museum for perfect people.

This is an observation of all community it is the nature of humanity (and trust me, having lived at sea for 28 years now I know what close daily community with broken and sinful people looks like). We, as followers of Christ, are supposed to be connected to something better however.
The most useful people to me outside of my biological family and the Christians I paid to have help me, during my recent hard times where, one Christian lady through an online discussion, a lady I know who is a secular humanist of the theosophical bent and a lady who has been a practicing wiccan and who still teaches her kids the fundamentals of this religion. The Christian people I know in the area I live have kept thier distance and won't even respond to emails or texts.

My life has been filled with pain. I wish people had cared for what I went through. And so that is what I offer others -- a caring heart. Usually the only thing I can do is care. Sometimes they want advice and I offer such as I can give.

In the end, there is no conflict in caring for you with love and also noting that really all we can do is move on with life. We of course try to address problems as best we can. That is the healthy mature thing to do. And what do we do when we've done all we can, and it is no good? We give it to the Lord. And when we give it to the Lord but it still hurts us? We can seek counseling to see if there are complicating issues making it difficult to let go of, or to see if there are things we are still holding on to that we may need help in dealing with. Sometimes real life is a lot messier and more confusing than we like to admit. But after ALL that... in the end, we still have to get up in the morning, drink our coffee, eat our breakfast, brush our teeth, and go to work. Hanging on to resentments only hurts our own selves, it's true. When we are ready to stop hurting, we will let go of it, with God's help. But not before. And it is very insensitive of people to assume we can just simply let go of betrayal like that.

This is not religion you are describing, rather it is day to day life among people.

Whoa, hang on there buckaroo! The way you worded it makes it sound like you should only be involved in church if you are personally getting something out of it. Is that true? I kind of need to know because how I respond depends on where you are coming from.

Again, a stock standard response that misrepresents the real issue.
Well, the thing we get out of Church, if we are a part of it, is relationship with the body as opposed to relationship with the world. If interaction with the Kingdom in community does not provide relationship with the body then what purpose does it serve?
I live in community like this with the world, and yes it involves me looking at what I have to give, but the Church is not even interested in that!
I have specifically given my contact details to a number of Christians and told them that I am available to give them a hand with whatever. Not one of them has ever responded, it seems that all they want is a pew sitting religious person, but to sit in a crowded room in this way is soul destroying.

We aren't talkinng about professing your trust in God. We are talkinng about making FACTUAL CLAIMS about him. That there is One God That he created the universe. That Jesus was born of a virgin. That he died for our sins. that he bodily rose from the dead. That he will return again some day. That if we repent and are baptized, God will forgive us our sins and fill us with the holy spirit. THOSE are called religious truth claims.

Factual claims are backed by good evidence. That there is one God who created the universe has good philosophical and ever increasing scientific evidence behind it and stands or falls independantly of religion.

That Jesus was born of a virgin is not a factual claim, rather it is something we believe because we trust the people who told us so.

That Jesus of Nazareth was crucified at the hands of Pontius Pilate on the other hand is a factual historical account backed by good evidence, and again the truth of the claim stands or falls according to the evidence that is independant of religion.

That He rose from the dead and that this proves His death is efective for the forgivness of sin is not a factual claim, rather it is with our hearts that we believe it, because we trust the writers of the Bible to be telling the truth, as is the same for the other beliefs you have written here.

The only reason these things are considered "religious" is because we choose to push them into the same box as all of religious mumbo jumbo of the world, which to my mind discredits truth by giving it equivalancy to lies.

It sounds to me like you have ratty Christian acquaintances and radically need to find a way different church.

Just finding a Church, any Church that I can have day to day relationship in community with would be a good start.

In my experience, people in general tend to be very loving towards their family and their close friends, and polite in general. But they do not show love to those outside their circle if it involves personal sacrifice. And I mean both religious and secular alike.

I agree with you here, except that my experience is that secular people are better at Loving outside the circle, perhaps because they don't maintain the same excusive boundaries.

If you are telling me you live somewhere where secular humanists are against sex outside of marriage please tell me where that is.

Many Godless people I know, including among the seafarers, recognise the incredible damage to families that sex outside the confines of marriage does. All of the secular families I know in my area are very strong on this point, at least as strong as religious people, perhaps in some cases stronger, because they have experienced first hand the pain and it's not just some religious theological point for them.
As for most extreme views it is only a vocal minority that truly holds to the idea of wanton licentiousness.

You need to hold people accountable for their own choices. If a religion says not to steal, and someone in that religion steals and ends up in jail, you can't blame the religion for the fact that they ended up jail. The blame rests squarely on their own shoulders.

That the religion does not hold active and open Love of ones neighbour as it's highest and most urgent practice, in accordance with the example set by God, is it's failure.

I love my mother beyond words. I honor everything she says to me. If she says something to me and i disagree, I remain silent out of respect.

That's NOTHING like a sacred text. There is NO disagreeing with the faith or moral tenets of the Bible.

As far as I can see the difference is only by degree.
My Mother might be wrong but of course our Creator who knows everything is not. On the other hand, because we do not know God as well as we know our Mother, the writings in His name are more susceptible to misinterpretation.

Ahhh, so sweet. I'm such a sucker for romance. You'd never guess that I'm single and celibate LOL. This kind of flowery love language is figurative. It is called hyperbole, which means to exaggerate in order to make a point (in this case how much the person is loved). You don't really think your lover is a deity and you aren't really worshiping them. But it sure is a delicious thing to say.

Actually you will find that the word "worship" carried different connotations historically. The failure to understand this point has led to much confusion among Protestants about how Roman Catholics rever and honor Mary.
Again, it is about degrees of honour, not categories.

So, not to be a jerk, but I still don't understand why you feel you aren't communing.

I have problems with crowds. I'm an arch-introvert, so I'm most at home with one on ones or very small groups. Put me at a party, and I have no idea what to do. I feel loneliest in crowds.

I spend most of my life at sea alone as a Christian and yet sitting in a pew surrounded by people who are not engaging with me is far lonelier. The fact that these people have no desire whatever to engage with me beyond the service or the bible study makes it all that much worse.

But the liturgy of the Eucharist helps me deal with this. Even though I'm always standing next to strangers, we sing the same hymns, pray the same prayers, say the same common confession, sing the same parts of Mass... We hold hands for the Our Father, and give them a squeeze just before last part. We shake hands hands and wish each other "Peace be with you." We stand together. We kneel together. I guess what I'm saying is that with Liturgy I'm not there as one person alone but I'm part of a great whole functioning together as a community.

How is trying not to look at the backside of the person standing in front of you "functioning together as a community"?

You are avoiding my point. Let's start with the beginning: Mt. Sinai. Do you agree that God established a religion for Israel, complete with 613 commandments, a Tabernacle, a priesthood, a sacrificial system, and holy days?

I'm not trying to be mean or rough on you. But I just think you are avoiding the obvious, and that the loving thing is to help you face reality -- this would enable you to be a healthier and happier individual.

God was trying to establish a marriage covenant with a nation. He invited the whole nation up onto the mountain to join with Him in that relationship so that through His very close relationship with them they might be a light to the world. It is the Jews who out of thier fear rejected this and so God gave the world the next best thing which was actually a curse: a religion. We see the same thing happening a few years down the track when they rejected Him as their King and called for a human leader instead. God gave the Saul against His better judgement. Now once again each one of us we has been given the oppurtunity to enter into close relationship with Him, He living inside of us and we in Him, and yet so many of us choose religion instead.
Shalom shabat Moshiach Yehoshua

 

[Episaw]

Read 1 Corinthians 11:23-26. You will see how Paul, from his communication with Christ, established the Liturgy of communion.

The passage in 1 Cor 11 speaks of it in the context of a communal meal.

 

[Open Heart]

The passage in 1 Cor 11 speaks of it in the context of a communal meal.

Yes, and Cor 11 also speaks of the abuses that were taking place. It was because of these abuses that the Church quickly removed Eucharist from the context of a love feast.

 

[Anguspure]

Yes, and Cor 11 also speaks of the abuses that were taking place. It was because of these abuses that the Church quickly removed Eucharist from the context of a love feast.

Thus throwing babies out with the bath water so to speak.