Why is Christ not dead / in Hell

Sam91 · Jul 4, 2018

The OP question is flawed and judging from the fist page of answers that I just read has managed to confuse a lot of people.

It is very much like that riddle where something is bought after borrowing money. The changed is shared out but it doesn't add up to the original amount of cash.

There are separate issues getting confused. I am sorry if I do not have the correct words.

Der Alte · Jul 4, 2018

Kaon said:
begin

<Kaon>Part of what is missing in the canon - Gnostics and/or apocrypha - is that there is even an election of people that will go to hell until they have come to truth, and realized their foolishness.
That may take aeons for some people, but as long as you are part of the Most High God's election from the foundations of the earth, you will (eventually) come out of chaos.
The Redeemer is Perfect as a man, even; He never had to come to truth because He is the Truth. However, as a Son of Man, He had to go to hell since His flesh was cursed.
Everyone that died before the Redeemer went to hell/chaos; it wasn't until the Redeemer actually contacted and awoke people in hell from their ignorance, and consequentially resurrected back to Life that souls that died began going to Judgment instead of chaos.
He paid the full price because as [the Word of] God, He humiliated Himself into human form, died by the hands of His creation, went to the place He prepared for the disobedient "angels". Keep in mind He owns everything ever. He paid more of a price than a human ignorant of their identity will pay in hell.<end>

end

Which scripture says The Redeemer/Son of Man went to hell and did anything there?

Eloy Craft · Jul 4, 2018

EmSw said:
How was Jesus separated from knowing Himself?

The mode of knowing particular to the Divine Nature is not a property of human nature but the knowledge can be infused by which the process of abstraction is bypassed. The human brain can't receive the knowledge of all things that exist in all ways they exist and their acts at every moment let alone all that is possible. The human brain can't receive omniscience in it's passable state..

EmSw · Jul 4, 2018

Landon Caeli said:
No, It's not an 'even' transaction -it doesn't need to be. Jesus was a "reparation offering". Like a human sacrifice by God.

The worth of the crucifixion, where God sacrificed his only son, is beyond our knowledge. It's value is actually beyond measure, beyond "price"... Beyond anything, ever.

Where do you find in the OT where they 'wounded' the offering before being sacrificed?

EmSw · Jul 4, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
This is close to the answer I think the OP is (hopefully) trying to find.

When the ETERNAL CREATOR UNCHANGEABLE UNCREATED ELOHIM (JESUS)
allowed Himself the sheer humility to be born a man in an ungrateful evil world,
that was more a supreme humiliation, humbling willing,
than anyone on earth can possibly imagine.

Then, when the ALMIGHTY ETERNAL CREATOR IMMUTABLE PERFECT ELOHIM (JESUS)
further
lays down His Life , His Perfect Life, Eternal without end past and future,
gives up the Spirit/breath at the crucifixion, "as a criminal!" ,

THAT is so much more forever, than if a million million times as many people died eternally for their own sins because the penalty for sin is death.....

Thus, Perfect Justice is Maintained as Yahweh Always Planned from Eternity to Eternity.

The BLOOD OF HE LAMB pays the price of atonement for our sins, for our redemption,
so we are PURCHASED WITH HIS BLOOD, perfectly and righteously in Yahweh's Plan.

Perfectly in every detail, exactly as Yahweh and Yahshua always PLANNED IN THEIR PURPOSE FOR SALVATION for the elect, and
Perfect in Justice condemning those eternally who reject Jesus.

Why not repent for the remission (of the penalty) of sin?

2tim_215 · Jul 4, 2018

The only reason that this works for us is God's grace. There's probably 101 reasons to say some of the negative things that are being said in this thread regarding salvation and judgment but the bottom line is God's grace and through it, and in particular Jesus sacrifice (which was due in fact to His grace) we have this great hope for a future in heaven if we're believers and followers of Jesus.

And btw, God never told man to perform human sacrifices, that's something that the heathen/Pagans came up with on their own. The only human sacrificed on behalf of God was His Son.

EmSw · Jul 4, 2018

dreadnought said:
Who said that the price of sin is "eternal death or eternal suffering in the lake of fire"?

What do you see as the price of sin?

EmSw · Jul 4, 2018

marineimaging said:
Because Jesus took the sins of all mankind to hell. But that did not change the fact that he was sinless as the human Jesus. That is how he was able to take the sins of all mankind to hell and then be resurrected and ascend to the right hand of God.

Where do you find Jesus took all the sins of mankind to hell?

EmSw · Jul 4, 2018

Clint Edwards said:
There are two deaths, the first is temporary, the second is permanent. Paul says those in their graves ¨have fallen asleep¨, they all will awake, they won´t awake if they die a second time.

So, which of the two deaths did Jesus pay the price for mankind?

EmSw · Jul 4, 2018

Sam91 said:
Because the sacrifice is the atonement. The dying part, the life blood. The old testament make this very clear.

The sins were placed on the animal and it was slain.

The sins were placed upon Jesus.

It doesn't say the animal the goes to hell.

Yes, I know the earlier sacrifices were a precursor to what Jesus was going to do.

What do you say of the scape goat?

2tim_215 · Jul 4, 2018

I don't know if He took sin to hell (may have) but He definitely became sin.
2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 4, 2018

Actually, apparently, and perhaps necessarily , "sin offering" is more accurate.

OJB
The one who in his person had no da’as of chattat (sin) [Ac 3:14; Yn 8:46; MJ 4:15; 7:26; 1K 2:22; 1Y 3:5], this one Hashem made a chattat sin offering [Ga 3:13; YESHAYAH 53:10; VAYIKRA 4:24 TARGUM HASHIVIM] on our behalf that we might become the Tzidkat Hashem [DANIEL 9:24] in Moshiach. [1C 1:30; Pp 3:9] [T.N. In this next chapter Rav Sha’ul warns against associations or worldly influences or fascinations that will contaminate the believer, who should not think he can have both the world’s evil pleasures and the House of G-d’s holy chelek.]

CJB
God made this sinless man be a sin offering on our behalf, so that in union with him we might fully share in God’s righteousness.”

dreadnought · Jul 4, 2018

EmSw said:
What do you see as the price of sin?

A trip to the lake of fire, where you will remain until you repent.

Sam91 · Jul 4, 2018

EmSw said:
What do you say of the scape goat?

Another foreshadow of Christ. He took all our sins and was crucified outside of the city.

EmSw · Jul 4, 2018

2tim_215 said:
The only reason that this works for us is God's grace. There's probably 101 reasons to say some of the negative things that are being said in this thread regarding salvation and judgment but the bottom line is God's grace and through it, and in particular Jesus sacrifice (which was due in fact to His grace) we have this great hope for a future in heaven if we're believers and followers of Jesus.

And btw, God never told man to perform human sacrifices, that's something that the heathen/Pagans came up with on their own. The only human sacrificed on behalf of God was His Son.

Why do you think God chose a human sacrifice, which is an abomination to God, to save mankind?

EmSw · Jul 4, 2018

dreadnought said:
A trip to the lake of fire, where you will remain until you repent.

So, a person is able to leave the lake of fire?

EmSw · Jul 4, 2018

Sam91 said:
Another foreshadow of Christ. He took all our sins and was crucified outside of the city.

But the scape goat wasn't crucified. In fact, none of the sacrificial animals were crucified.

bling · Jul 4, 2018

Inkfingers said:
Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.

The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:

a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)

b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)

It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.

Thoughts?

You have rebelliously disobeyed the Creator of the universe. You have offended God. What possible even partial payment could be made for such an offence?

Do you agree God has forgiven your sins 100%?

If God is forgiving your sins 100% what is left to pay and if it were paid 100% there is nothing to forgive?

What scripture are you using to suggest Jesus paid for your sins?

There is a real problem with assuming “for” means “instead of”. There are lots of Greek words translated “for” in the English, but only the Greek word “anti” translate “for” sometimes conveys the meaning “instead of” but could mean “in exchange, in payment for, because of and similar meanings.” According the Strong’s commentary “anti” is used 22 times in the NT and twice in context with atonement (really once recorded twice) “...my life a ransom for many” but this does not tell us: “who the undeserving kidnapper was offered the ransom?” God is not a kidnapper and satan would not have to be paid (satan will not change), but the unbeliever sinner can change and release the child within him to go to the Father. We are trying to sell the unbeliever on Christ which includes Him crucified (the ransom payment.

Jenniferdiana · Jul 4, 2018

i dont know what you mean, what are you talking about

Kaon · Jul 4, 2018

Der Alter said:
<Kaon>Part of what is missing in the canon - Gnostics and/or apocrypha - is that there is even an election of people that will go to hell until they have come to truth, and realized their foolishness.
That may take aeons for some people, but as long as you are part of the Most High God's election from the foundations of the earth, you will (eventually) come out of chaos.
The Redeemer is Perfect as a man, even; He never had to come to truth because He is the Truth. However, as a Son of Man, He had to go to hell since His flesh was cursed.
Everyone that died before the Redeemer went to hell/chaos; it wasn't until the Redeemer actually contacted and awoke people in hell from their ignorance, and consequentially resurrected back to Life that souls that died began going to Judgment instead of chaos.
He paid the full price because as [the Word of] God, He humiliated Himself into human form, died by the hands of His creation, went to the place He prepared for the disobedient "angels". Keep in mind He owns everything ever. He paid more of a price than a human ignorant of their identity will pay in hell.<end>Which scripture says The Redeemer/Son of Man went to hell and did anything there?

As I said, this is non-canonical.

Why is Christ not dead / in Hell

Child of the Living God

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Myth only points, Truth happened!

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