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Please provide the passage, so that we are on the same page.
Thanks in advance.
God bless!
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Please provide the passage, so that we are on the same page.I don't think that is what Jesus meant.
And therein lies the reason we have problems with proselytizing. As I said you will get 60 answers because everybody has their version of this sin or that of the redemptive power of Christ, or the Old vs New Testament, or whatever serves to keep us separated. It is in scripture and it is taught by some but not all. Just because it wasn't in your congregation(s) doesn't make it wrong. Still, I would prefer to stay focused on the answer to the OP and that is that Jesus is not in Hell because he, himself, was without sin. I don't think we have any argument with that very important point.Wow, I was raised a Baptist ( Southern ), and never heard that. It is theologically wrong. The moment Christ said on the cross ¨ it is finished ´, all the sin of all who accept forgiveness was forgiven. He didn´t need to take it anywhere, a sin forgiven by God exists no more
Logical syllogism. The penalty for sin is death, Christ atoned for the penalty for all who accept him, therefore, death is swallowed up in victory. The promise of God given to our first parents was that they would surely die. DEATH is the wages of sin, temporary, or permanent was not specified. The act of dying, once or twice was what Christ overcame, not the duration of death, though it could be either.You have a systematic logic that makes your point interesting. I noticed that no one was directly addressing your line of logic, and I started following it just to see how long it would take you to quit the thread in exasperation.
I can only argue by analogy. Hell is a hole with no bottom (an abyss), because the punishment is endless. We are finite beings with a finite sum of dirt with which to fill that hole. It would take us forever. An infinite God could fill it in a moment, with his infinite supply. God could pay the same price in a moment that would take us forever to pay. If Christ were anything less than God, anything less than perfect, less than infinite, then he would have to burn in Hell forever, and our sins would not be paid until that eternity was completed.
It would take a poor man a very long time to pay an enormous debt, but a rich man could pay it in a day, because he has more to offer. Christ was that rich man. In other words, the punishment of Christ in a single day was worth more than the punishment of a sinner over the course of eternity.
The punishment is not undone, and he did take it.
Well, as a Bible teacher, I have never come across this in the Bible, no matter, we do agree on that very important point.And therein lies the reason we have problems with proselytizing. As I said you will get 60 answers because everybody has their version of this sin or that of the redemptive power of Christ, or the Old vs New Testament, or whatever serves to keep us separated. It is in scripture and it is taught by some but not all. Just because it wasn't in your congregation(s) doesn't make it wrong. Still, I would prefer to stay focused on the answer to the OP and that is that Jesus is not in Hell because he, himself, was without sin. I don't think we have any argument with that very important point.
I am not a teacher, but can repeat a couple points I have heard, on this topic.Okay, this is one that vexes me.
If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:
1) eternally dead
2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity
If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.
The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:
a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)
b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)
It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.
Thoughts?
Where does it actually say that it's an abomination (although I'm sure it is). It just wasn't a requirement for the Old Testament Jew. Instead, animals were used. Never did they sacrifice humans and were not asked by God to do so. However, via the animal sacrifices, the Jewish priests had to perform these rituals on a regular basis, you need to read Hebrews:Is human sacrifice an abomination to God? If you say yes, then God chose that which is an abomination to Him to save you.
Where does it actually say that it's an abomination (although I'm sure it is). It just wasn't a requirement for the Old Testament Jew. Instead, animals were used. Never did they sacrifice humans and were not asked by God to do so. However, via the animal sacrifices, the Jewish priests had to perform these rituals on a regular basis, you need to read Hebrews:
Hebrews 9:8-14 (KJV)
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 10:1-6 (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Jesus was the and for all perfect sacrifice which God chose to accept for man's remission of sin. No need for us to sacrifice animals, hallelujah.
Doesn't it cost something to get out?
Tetzel, indulgence seller for the pope that Luther railed against, ¨ as soon as a coin in my money box rings, another soul from purgatory springs ¨.Doesn't it cost something to get out?
What do you think of this from the Catholic Encyclopedia?
Purgatory. An indulgence offers the penitent sinner the means of discharging this debt during his life on earth.
What is an indulgence to you?
It means the guilt we feel while alive now. People used to falsely claim that indulgences shortened our time in purgatory, most likely, because they either wanted to portray the Catholic Church as evil, or they were ignorant...
But we can still receive indulgences during jubilee years, despite the outcry from some radical anti-Catholics. I would like to receive one some day, perhaps on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land.
As most Catholics know, confessing our sins does not make us feel any better about them. Often, we remain feeling guilty long afterwards, especially for the most pious of people. So what the Church did, to help people suffering from guilt, was to offer indulgences.
Remission of sin, meaning we are completely forgiven by God...
...But what about someone we've hurt? For instance, when I was in grade school, I picked on a kid, and said hurtful things to him. Sure, I realize God has forgiven me, but I still feel sorry for that person I hurt. I can never apologize to him because I have relocated.
Other people may have cheated on a spouse, or ruined a relationship to where lives are altered forever... Some things can never be taken back, and misfortune results from our errors.
...The guilt we live with may effect us for life.
You are right, but you can be forgiven by God, and it would be much better if you could apologize to the one you hurt but there may have been consequences you've had to suffer for later in life. When David sinned by committing adultery with Bathsheba and sending her husband to be killed in the front lines (considered murder) God forgave him, but he would suffer greatly for the rest of his life as a result starting with his first child being stillborn. You could still pray for the one you have injured, even though you are unable to apologize in person. God knows you have repented. I'm sure that whatever you did to this person pales in comparison to what David did. Hope this helps.Remission of sin, meaning we are completely forgiven by God...
...But what about someone we've hurt? For instance, when I was in grade school, I picked on a kid, and said hurtful things to him. Sure, I realize God has forgiven me, but I still feel sorry for that person I hurt. I can never apologize to him because I have relocated.
Other people may have cheated on a spouse, or ruined a relationship to where lives are altered forever... Some things can never be taken back, and misfortune results from our errors.
...The guilt we live with may effect us for life.
Wow Inkfingers, I just now found this thread you started. I wish I'd have been here in the beginning. But I'm not going to wade through 15 pages to get up to where it has gone.Yup.
Nope. Nothing in what I said denies God. It points out the nature of punishment for sin. So kindly spare me such allegations.
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